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:: Did Angels/Demons have sexual relations with women? - 8/5/2008 8:44:47 AM
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earthless
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Genesis 6:4 is one of the most controversial passages in the Bible. As with any difficult section of Scripture, it has been open to a wide variety of interpretations. It is my conviction however, that those who hold consistently to a biblical worldview must reject the notion that women and demons can engage in sexual relations. I reject this interpretation of pagan superstition into the Scriptures for the following reasons.
First and foremost, the notion that demons can "produce" real bodies and have real sex with real women would invalidate Jesus' argument for the authenticity of His resurrection.
Jesus assured His disciples that a "spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have" (Luke 24:39). If indeed a demon could produce flesh and bones Jesus' argument would not only be flawed, it would be misleading. In fact, it might be logically argued that the disciples did not see the post-resurrection appearances of Christ but rather a demon masquerading as the resurrected Christ.
Furthermore, demoms are nonsexual nonphysical beings and as such are incapable of having sexual relations and producing physical offspring. To say that demons can create bodies with DNA and fertile sperm is to say that demons have creative power - which is an exclusively divine prerogative.
If demons could have sex with women in ancient times, we would have no assurance they could not do so in modern times. Nor would we have any guarantee that the people we encounter every day are fully human.
While a biblical worldview does allow for fallen angels to possess unsaved human beings, it does not support the notion that a demon-possessed person can produce offspring that are part-demon, part human. Genesis 1 makes it clear that all of God's living creations are designed to reproduce "according to their own kind."
Finally, the mutant theory creates serious questions pertaining to the spiritual accountability of hypothetical demon-humans and their relation to humanity's redemption. Angels rebelled individually, are judged individually, and are offered no plan of redemption in Scripture. On the other hand, humans fell corporately in Adam, are judged corporately in Adam, and are redeemed corporately through Jesus Christ.
We have no biblical way of determining what category the demon-humans would fit into - whether they would be judged as angels or as men, or more significantly, whether they might even be among those for whom Christ died.
I believe the better interpretation is that "sons of God" simply refers to the godly descendants of Seth, and "daughters of men" to the ungodly descendants of Cain.
Their cohabitation caused humanity to fall into such utter depravity that God said: "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth - men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air - for I am grieved that I have made them. But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord" (Genesis 6:7-8).
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RE: :: Did Angels/Demons have sexual relations with women? - 8/5/2008 10:36:19 AM
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csl7037
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As you well know, earthless (and as you always explain so well), the Bible can't contradict itself and if something seems to be contradictory or absurdly out of place, it's a much better assumption that we're just not understanding it correctly. I guess it's a matter of faith - you can take either side of this questionable passage but to interpret it in a way that contradicts the rest of God's Word (as you have illustrated), then nullifies the whole thing. I think yours is a very good explanation and it's the only thing that makes any sense at all.
When Christopher Columbus came ashore in America, the Natives are said to have thought they were gods arriving on clouds (the sails of the ships). You have to keep in mind with any historical account, including what we find in the Bible, that we're reading an account that was recorded by someone with a limited perspective. That perspective, just like our own, is limited by their understanding as well as cultural, spritual, and societal factors of that time and/or place. The same is true from our own perspective - it's easy to read into history or the Bible what we know or think we know from our perspective in this time and place and that is just as problematic.
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RE: :: Did Angels/Demons have sexual relations with women? - 8/5/2008 5:13:29 PM
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Raptorman
Posts: 112
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From: Colorado
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Great post, Earthless!
I suspected that something was wrong with the idea that Nephilim are hybrids of humans and angels. Now I know how to answer it. Thanks! Still, I'm unsure as to how Cain and Seth's descendants would marry and have giants as children. Perhaps it's a long shot, but if you wanted to see an idea of mine about the Nephilim's origin, you can check out the thread "Speculation: Other Sentient Races?" in this forum, though as the title indicates, it's only speculation.
Thanks again for the answers! I'm sure they'll prove valuable.
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"Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - G.K. Chesterton
"If we valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." - J.R.R. Tolkien
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RE: :: Did Angels/Demons have sexual relations with women? - 8/5/2008 6:07:17 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6353
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Raptor man,
Thanks for the kind words, all glory to Jesus!
I have a perspective written on the question you just brought up. Perhaps I should post that one as well, though I wonder if I should do so in a separate thread or just include it in this one. Thoughts?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Did Angels/Demons have sexual relations with women? - 8/5/2008 10:04:24 PM
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Raptorman
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Sure, go ahead and post it here. I'd love to hear it. Maybe we can move the discussion to a different forum if we want to delve deeper into it.
_____________________________
"Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - G.K. Chesterton
"If we valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." - J.R.R. Tolkien
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RE: :: Did Angels/Demons have sexual relations with women? - 8/6/2008 4:51:42 AM
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howie49
Posts: 7
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Genesis 6:4 is one of the most controversial passages in the Bible. As with any difficult section of Scripture, it has been open to a wide variety of interpretations. It is my conviction however, that those who hold consistently to a biblical worldview must reject the notion that women and demons can engage in sexual relations. I reject this interpretation of pagan superstition into the Scriptures for the following reasons.
First and foremost, the notion that demons can "produce" real bodies and have real sex with real women would invalidate Jesus' argument for the authenticity of His resurrection.
Jesus assured His disciples that a "spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have" (Luke 24:39). If indeed a demon could produce flesh and bones Jesus' argument would not only be flawed, it would be misleading. In fact, it might be logically argued that the disciples did not see the post-resurrection appearances of Christ but rather a demon masquerading as the resurrected Christ.
Furthermore, demoms are nonsexual nonphysical beings and as such are incapable of having sexual relations and producing physical offspring. To say that demons can create bodies with DNA and fertile sperm is to say that demons have creative power - which is an exclusively divine prerogative.
If demons could have sex with women in ancient times, we would have no assurance they could not do so in modern times. Nor would we have any guarantee that the people we encounter every day are fully human.
While a biblical worldview does allow for fallen angels to possess unsaved human beings, it does not support the notion that a demon-possessed person can produce offspring that are part-demon, part human. Genesis 1 makes it clear that all of God's living creations are designed to reproduce "according to their own kind."
Finally, the mutant theory creates serious questions pertaining to the spiritual accountability of hypothetical demon-humans and their relation to humanity's redemption. Angels rebelled individually, are judged individually, and are offered no plan of redemption in Scripture. On the other hand, humans fell corporately in Adam, are judged corporately in Adam, and are redeemed corporately through Jesus Christ.
We have no biblical way of determining what category the demon-humans would fit into - whether they would be judged as angels or as men, or more significantly, whether they might even be among those for whom Christ died.
I believe the better interpretation is that "sons of God" simply refers to the godly descendants of Seth, and "daughters of men" to the ungodly descendants of Cain.
Their cohabitation caused humanity to fall into such utter depravity that God said: "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth - men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air - for I am grieved that I have made them. But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord" (Genesis 6:7-8).
Bear with me here-- I'm going to give you a startling variation to this whole issue - from the original Hebrew text -- that actually makes sense and does not violate at all what Jesus spoke of concerning the angels.
I hold consistently to a Biblical worldview and take great issue with you on your conclusions. I'm not alone - so do many other conservative Biblical scholars.
There are however some things you stated which need to be addressed.
Demons are not synonymous with fallen angels. In other words, they are not one and the same. Most angeologists and theologians I've read indicate that there is a distinct difference between a demon and the various ranks of the fallen angelic realm. Ephesians 6:12 indicates various ranks within the fallen angel realm, and these categories do interact with humans and particularly one class or rank especially - which in the original Greek text is the term "kosmo-krator" = "world ruler" of a dark world.
This is the same class as Gabriel speaks of to Daniel in Daniel chapter 10 where the "kosmo-krator" or in the Hebrew - the "sar" of Persia is able to "Bush-whack" or "ambush" (hebrew military term) Gabriel and pin him down (Hebrew military term) for 21 days. Gabriel tells Daniel that he had to call for reinforcements and the archangel Michael came and helped "unpin" him so he could continue on with his mission of giving Daniel God's message. After Gabriel finishes giving his message he tells Daniel that he now has to go and fight against the coming "sar" or "kosmo-krator" of Greece.
So we do know that high-ranking classes of the angelic realm and their underlings do interact with humanity and they do have military clashes with God's loyal angels. And the kosmo-krator class is apparently pretty powerful if a kosmokrator-ranked fallen angel can ambush and pin down an archangel for 21 days.
The term in question here in Genesis 6:2 and 4 is the Hebrew word "Benai ha-helohim" translated by the KJV as "sons of God."
"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."
V. 4.
"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
That particular term is found only twice more in the entire Old Testament - in the book of Job chapter 1:6 - 7
"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."
"And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
And again in Chapter 2:1
"Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
"And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
++++++++++
From these two instances in Job, we gain further insight into what constitutes the term "benai ha-helohim"
Whoever they are - they are required to periodically check in with God, face-to-face.... which, as we know from Moses - no man can do and live to tell about it.
Furthermore, these beings are checking in with God before Him in Heaven apparently - not on Earth. We know this because ....
Satan also comes in with them and God asks Satan where he's been. Satan replies that he's come from running around on Earth. This indicates that the meetings didn't take place on Earth and it means Satan had been hanging out on Earth.
Another key point, the phrase "and Satan came also among them."
This phrase indicates that Satan was a part of this group. Here again, we have the distinct implication that the Benai ha-helohim are celestial beings of the angelic rank -- and not demons or of the lower demonic rank.
It seems very clear from the original Hebrew texts - the sons of God were not human beings.
The original Hebrew version of Genesis 6:2 and 4 is ambiguous on the what the sons of God do.
In verse 2, the KJV translates the Hebrew word Ishshah (ish-shaw) - see Strongs Code #802. Also See Genesenius Hebrew/Chaldee--English Lexicon as well as Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon.
All concur that the Hebrew word carries many flavor's of meaning often times based upon perceived context.
It basically means "woman" or "female" adult or child. Single or Married, Aulteress or chaste or virgin. It can strictly be of sexual gender for animals too.
We could read the passage this way as an alternative to the KJV:
"and they took them women of all which they chose."
In Genesis 6:4 - we find something interesting. There is no indication of intercourse. There is no phrase saying that the benai ha-helohim "lay with" the daughters of men. "lay with" is indicative of intercourse.
Until the last 50 years or so, mankind has not been able to reproduce offspring without intercourse of some kind. However, especially in the last 20 years, science has been able to reproduce human offspring via test tubes and artificial insemination.
I propose to you that Genesis 6 speaks of artificial insemination and DNA manipulation.
These celestial beings can manifest in physical form. We know angels can do this from various Biblical passages. They can even eat food as evidenced from Abraham's entertaining angels prior to the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah.
There are indications from Babylonian royal records which mention these same entities - called the "Anunnaki" - that these were the same as the Benai ha-helohim. From these descriptions by the Babylonians (aka Sumerians) ... these entities did conduct DNA type experiments.
In other words, the Genesis text is not necessarily indicating "marriage and cohabitation." Our translators have assumed so and transposed that assumption into the text but the text is not explicit to that end.
Today, we have reports of "aliens" conducting abductions on human women and doing test-tube artificial inseminations and then releasing them back to their homes. In many respects, these "alien" encounters may be the same sort of thing that happened in Genesis 6.
If these alien abductions and artificial inseminations are actually going on, as bizarre as it sounds - it would give new meaning to Jesus' statement about the end times - in His Olivet Discourse where He states, "As it was in the Days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of Man."
One thing however to remember. The Benai ha-helohim of Genesis 6 are the same as in Job - celestial in nature and not human. What they may have been doing was some sort of 'cloning' of their DNA with human DNA and making the women the incubators of a hybrid species.
Remember also Jude speaks of the Genesis account in verse 6. Also the Book of Enoch, which was canonical of the Old Testament even at the time of Christ speaks in more detail apparently of Genesis 6. According to the writings of the early church fathers - the idea that the benai ha-helohim were fallen angels was the only view. No one thought otherwise until around the 4th Century A.D.
Early rabbinical literature claimed, according to Dr. Alfred Edersheim in his book "The Life & Times of Jesus The Messiah" that the prevalent rabbinical view of demons was that they were the souls or spirits of the "nephilim" or the offspring of the fallen angels and human females who had died in the flood... I don't know that I buy that conclusion, but I merely point out that the idea of that the "Benai ha-helohim" were the sons of Cain, would have brought howls of derision in the first century A.D. from both Rabbis and early Christians.
At least this is something to ponder and - it should give you pause to think before dogmatically rejecting such thoughts and dogmatically asserting the sons of God were merely sons of Cain.
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RE: :: Did Angels/Demons have sexual relations with women? - 8/6/2008 11:10:51 AM
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solarflare
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I don't know about the alien abductions and DNA manipulation, but I do tend to believe more in this theory than the other one. The expression "Sons of God" does not, to my understanding, refer to humans. I do agree that
quote:
Demons are not synonymous with fallen angels. In other words, they are not one and the same. Most angeologists and theologians I've read indicate that there is a distinct difference between a demon and the various ranks of the fallen angelic realm. Ephesians 6:12 indicates various ranks within the fallen angel realm, and these categories do interact with humans and particularly one class or rank especially - which in the original Greek text is the term "kosmo-krator" = "world ruler" of a dark world.
I have read much the same when looking into this topic.
We may be uncomfortable with all that entails, but I have no doubt we would be a whole lot more uncomfortable if we knew all that goes on that we cannot see with the eyes we currently have. I am not being conclusive, but I do tend to agree more with the above, than not.
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RE: :: Did Angels/Demons have sexual relations with women? - 8/6/2008 11:29:51 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3469
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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I think we may read a lot "into" these questionable issues.
Coming before God could be the priests or the like coming
presenting themselves and Satan appearing with them.
And some of the ideas seem to have some pre-Adamite
theory mixed in with it.
So, this may be one of those issues that will be on the
back burner until Messiah gives us the understanding.
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