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Are War and Violence Sins? - 10/31/2008 2:11:43 PM
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lordknowus
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I believe Chrisianity in America needs to reject the use of violence to solve disputes. I believe the idea of turning the other cheek is a direct condemnation of violence. I think Jesus was a pacifist, so why are people who call themselves "moral," or "Christian" for that matter, condoning the use of violence.
Could someone please tell me whether or not violence and the larger version of the same force wars, are condoned by Christianity? If you believe so, in what conditions is the violence just? Another concept to add to these thoughts, is there any situation that can only be solved by violence? Could we be using the word of God to solve these problems? Would diplomacy work?
Jesus walked on water, healed others with his touch, came back to life (albeit briefly), so I believe he could have used violence against the Romans and the Jews who persecuted him. Is it not important that he chose not to use violence? In fact he used the fact that he would not resort to violence as a teaching point for his disciples.
Please help me understand how Christianity can condone violence.
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 10/31/2008 2:21:02 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7594
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I believe Chrisianity in America needs to reject the use of violence to solve disputes. I believe the idea of turning the other cheek is a direct condemnation of violence. I think Jesus was a pacifist, so why are people who call themselves "moral," or "Christian" for that matter, condoning the use of violence.
Could someone please tell me whether or not violence and the larger version of the same force wars, are condoned by Christianity? If you believe so, in what conditions is the violence just? Another concept to add to these thoughts, is there any situation that can only be solved by violence? Could we be using the word of God to solve these problems? Would diplomacy work?
Jesus walked on water, healed others with his touch, came back to life (albeit briefly), so I believe he could have used violence against the Romans and the Jews who persecuted him. Is it not important that he chose not to use violence? In fact he used the fact that he would not resort to violence as a teaching point for his disciples.
Please help me understand how Christianity can condone violence.
I think individual Christians are obligated to respond to those who would persecute them with supernatural forgiveness.
I think Godly governments are obligated to protect their citizens by rewarding what is good, and punishing what is evil, by the sword if neccesary.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 10/31/2008 2:51:46 PM
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BarryLee
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In my opinion war and violence are not sins, but tools to achieve an agenda that may or may not be sinful.
The most obvious example is when the Allies used war and violence to defeat Hitler and his Nazi machine. It is difficult to see how any reasonable person could argue this was wrong. Also, keep in mind the world used diplomacy first, but as we all know it did not work.
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 10/31/2008 3:01:19 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think Godly governments are obligated to protect their citizens by rewarding what is good, and punishing what is evil, by the sword if neccesary.
I changed your emphasis.
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love.ben
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 10/31/2008 5:08:56 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 377
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lordknowus
Jesus walked on water, healed others with his touch, came back to life (albeit briefly), so I believe he could have used violence against the Romans and the Jews who persecuted him. Is it not important that he chose not to use violence? In fact he used the fact that he would not resort to violence as a teaching point for his disciples.
I think it is good that we look to Jesus as an example. However, we must not loose site of the fact that He was God and Man at the same time. We are Man, as such we do not have some of the qualities He had. We can not walk on water, or heal others with our touch, or any of the other miraculous things He did, unless He so decides to bless us in that way.
I believe, if one reads the Bible, as a whole, one would understand that there is a time and a reason to resort to violence. Even Jesus resorted to violence, of a sort, when He was in the temple overturning the tables of merchants and moneychangers. He was angry. He was righteously angry at what people were doing in the temple area.
Violence is acceptable if it is used in the right way for the right reasons.
Yes, talking and diplomay are the prefered means of solving problems but it is not always possible.
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 10/31/2008 7:22:58 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2073
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lordknowus
I believe Chrisianity in America needs to reject the use of violence to solve disputes. I believe the idea of turning the other cheek is a direct condemnation of violence. I think Jesus was a pacifist, so why are people who call themselves "moral," or "Christian" for that matter, condoning the use of violence.
I think you need to differentiate between 'who' is being protected. I would protect, with violence if need be, others. I would not protect myself unless I am the one responsible for the others. IOW, I don't believe I am to protect my own life. But I am to guard others. And sometimes this does require the use of force. (I am talking hypothetically---I personally have never had to do this.)
Could someone please tell me whether or not violence and the larger version of the same force wars, are condoned by Christianity?
Again it is guarding the rights of others---not my own rights. That is where the difference lies for me. So if another person is being abused by a bully (for example) and I can stop it, I would and think that is my responsibility.
If you believe so, in what conditions is the violence just? Another concept to add to these thoughts, is there any situation that can only be solved by violence? Could we be using the word of God to solve these problems? Would diplomacy work?
Can people be talked into 'goodness'? I think God is pretty clear about that. And the answer is NO. Jesus died because man cannot be good. So that's pretty much the end of the discussion for me. I believe God.
Jesus walked on water, healed others with his touch, came back to life (albeit briefly), so I believe he could have used violence against the Romans and the Jews who persecuted him. Is it not important that he chose not to use violence? In fact he used the fact that he would not resort to violence as a teaching point for his disciples.
He would not because it was His life. He did not stand up for His rights. He layed down His life. As would I.
But protecting and guarding others is an entirely different question.
Please help me understand how Christianity can condone violence.
It is not condoning violence. It is supporting and protecting the helpless. And sometimes that requires violence.
If the war and violence are about me, my rights, protecting me, then YES I would call them sin. But NO when they are about others.
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/1/2008 8:51:10 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lordknowus
I believe Chrisianity in America needs to reject the use of violence to solve disputes. I believe the idea of turning the other cheek is a direct condemnation of violence. I think Jesus was a pacifist, so why are people who call themselves "moral," or "Christian" for that matter, condoning the use of violence.
Could someone please tell me whether or not violence and the larger version of the same force wars, are condoned by Christianity? If you believe so, in what conditions is the violence just? Another concept to add to these thoughts, is there any situation that can only be solved by violence? Could we be using the word of God to solve these problems? Would diplomacy work?
Jesus walked on water, healed others with his touch, came back to life (albeit briefly), so I believe he could have used violence against the Romans and the Jews who persecuted him. Is it not important that he chose not to use violence? In fact he used the fact that he would not resort to violence as a teaching point for his disciples.
Please help me understand how Christianity can condone violence.
If we lived in a perfect world, where everyone was reasonable, and everyone's goal was reaching agreement and harmony, then we could solve all problems with diplomacy. But we do not live in a perfect world. The unfortunate reality of the world we live in is that evil does exist. And evil does not respect weakness, it exploits it.
Is it not Christian to defend and protect the weak?
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/2/2008 4:59:23 AM
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47.samuel
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quote:
To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. Yet when we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. -1 Corinthians 4:9-13 NIV
The Lord, in disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier.
—Tertullian’s On Idolatry
Christians could never slay their enemies. For the more that kings, rulers, and peoples have persecuted them everywhere, the more Christians have increased in number and grown in strength.
—Origen Contra Celsius Book VII
Above all, Christians are not allowed to correct with violence.
—Clement of Alexandria
We who formerly used to murder one another now refrain from even making war upon our enemies.
—The First Apology of Justin Martyr 39
…. Through love towards their oppressors, they persuade them to become Christians.
—The Apology of Aristides 15
A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism ..... If a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God.
—Hippolytus of Rome
We would rather shed our own blood than stain our hands and our conscience with that of another......
—Arnobius
Therefore, no longer love this world or its military service, for Scripture’s authority declares that ‘whoever is a friend of this world is an enemy of God.’ Whoever serves as a soldier with the sword is the servant of death,
—Paulinus of Nola (A.D. 355-431), Letter 25, To Crispinianus
Wars are scattered all over the earth with the bloody horror of camps. The whole world is wet with mutual blood. And murder–which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual–is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless, but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!
—Cyprian of Carthage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_pacifism
Cyprian was right - murder "perpetrated on a grand scale" is still murder - the end never justifies the means.
Jesus "overturning the tables of merchants and moneychangers" doesn't constitute the moral justification for engaging in war.
< Message edited by 47.samuel -- 11/2/2008 5:08:57 AM >
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/3/2008 1:34:18 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7594
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Cyprian was right - murder "perpetrated on a grand scale" is still murder - the end never justifies the means.
Jesus "overturning the tables of merchants and moneychangers" doesn't constitute the moral justification for engaging in war.
The bottom line is Romans 13 makes it clear that government authorities have the right to bear the sword to punish evil, which is a sufficient justification for certain wars, no matter how many quotes one blindly copies and pastes from Wiki.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/3/2008 12:50:23 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The Lord, in disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier.
—Tertullian’s On Idolatry Well, as much as I may respect Tertullian, he seems to have forgotten that Matt 26:53 comes right after "disarming" Peter. "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?" As several have posted above, there is a time and place for justified violence in response to evil - it was obviously not at Jesus' arrest.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/3/2008 5:05:21 PM
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Lapidoth
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We continually show how finite our thinking is.
Jesus was a "pacifist?" Hardly.
A pacifist wouldn't wind up on the cross.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/4/2008 8:39:22 AM
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DaveW
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A pacifist would not have been able to take on a whole group of money changers single handed and drive the whole lot of them from the Temple grounds.
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/4/2008 11:50:09 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1500
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Huh.
My reply when someone asks this sort of thing is "You really haven't read the Old Testament, have you."
When dealing with a nation as a whole, God proscribes righteous wars all the time, even to the level of killing every man, woman, and child of the nation they're invading. So, I'm not sure how anyone can look at the Old Testament and ask if war is a sin, because God cannot sin, and God is starting wars left and right.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/4/2008 12:28:40 PM
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DaveW
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And I can hear the sounds alreadly:
"But that was the OOOOOLLLLLDDDDD testament! We ain't under that stuff any more!"
Exo 15:2 The LORD is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.
Exo 15:3 The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is his name.
Exo 15:4 "Pharaoh's chariots and his host he cast into the sea, and his chosen officers were sunk in the Red Sea.
The way I read the bible, God never changes.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/10/2008 1:54:00 AM
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dbark
Posts: 159
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
We continually show how finite our thinking is.
Jesus was a "pacifist?" Hardly.
A pacifist wouldn't wind up on the cross.
Can you explain your reasoning here? Why not? By that same reason, neither Martin Luther King nor Gandhi would have ended up being assassinated for their beliefs. Both were strongly committed pacifists.
< Message edited by dbark -- 11/10/2008 2:12:05 AM >
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/10/2008 2:06:57 AM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
And I can hear the sounds alreadly:
"But that was the OOOOOLLLLLDDDDD testament! We ain't under that stuff any more!"
Exo 15:2 The LORD is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.
Exo 15:3 The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is his name.
Exo 15:4 "Pharaoh's chariots and his host he cast into the sea, and his chosen officers were sunk in the Red Sea.
The way I read the bible, God never changes.
God may never change but the way He relates to mankind certainly has (new covenant anyone?)
I try to maintain a philosophy of non-violence as my viewpoint, as I believe strongly that it is what Jesus taught us - however, I still struggle with the idea that war is never necessary ... I'm close to being there, but maybe not quite. I do think that 99% of the wars fought throughout history were an unnecessary waste of life that made God grieve for his creation and that Christians of today and all ages are far too quick to use God to justify our selfish ambitions. War is evil. Maybe ... sometimes ... MAYBE, it is the lesser evil that we have to choose, but it is evil and it is certainly not God's will (in my opinion and considering our new covenant) that we kill others in his name.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/10/2008 3:20:01 AM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
A pacifist would not have been able to take on a whole group of money changers single handed and drive the whole lot of them from the Temple grounds.
Again, please explain why that would not be possible. Gandhi, using non-violence as his only weapon, drove the British Empire out of India ... Jesus would not be able to do the same?
Gandhi, by the way, got the inspiration for his principles of non-violence from Jesus. He read about those principles preached in the Sermon on the Mount and did not consider them to be only idealistic or unworkable - he applied them to the oppressive situation in India and freed hundreds of millions of people from imperialistic rule.
It disturbed Gandhi greatly when he heard Christians put aside the teaching of the Sermon on the Mount as impractical or dreamy idealism or to be practiced only by the very few as a personal ethic – the typical ways Catholics and Protestants make the Sermon on the Mount irrelevant to daily life and realpolitik. He wrote:
“For many of them contend that the Sermon on the Mount does not apply to mundane things, and that it was only meant for the twelve disciples. Well I do not believe this. I think the Sermon on the Mount has no meaning if it is not of vital use in everyday life to everyone.”
For him a commitment to nonviolence was at the center of what Jesus taught and lived and died for. He could not understand how one could be a disciple of Jesus if one was not fundamentally committed to nonviolence. He wrote:
“Christianity is no Christianity in which a vast number of Christians believe in governments based on brute force and are denying Christ every day of their lives…. Just now Christianity comes to a yearning humankind in a tainted form.”
He spent the whole of his life demonstrating that the Sermon on the Mount could be eminently practical politics – as he nonviolently opposed a ruthless and globe-spanning Empire, as he nonviolently opposed the thousands of years old injustice of untouchability, as he labored nonviolently to raise up the lives of his cherished “dumb millions,” in the villages of India. He continues to hope that Christianity would some day be authentically lived and that the West would come to the message of he Sermon on the Mount afresh. He was intent, through “experiments with truth,” to demonstrate its workability in a whole range of situations of violence.
Full article link
This is not written to idealize Gandhi, but illustrate that not only did Jesus preach non-violence, it works and it's a better way.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Are War and Violence Sins? - 11/10/2008 11:09:35 AM
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Kerrlaw
Posts: 9038
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From: Big Orange Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lordknowus
Jesus walked on water, healed others with his touch, came back to life (albeit briefly),...
Briefly?
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That which does not kill us makes us fatter. ~ crankius
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