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Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/22/2008 4:06:55 PM
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cow451
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Osama Bin Laden's alleged taxi driver is finally being tried under the Military Commission Court tribunal.
"He is charged with conspiracy and providing material support for terrorism. He faces life in prison if convicted.
Hamdan's attorneys say he was a driver for Osama Bin Laden but was not involved in any terrorist activity. Prosecutors say he was close to al-Qaida's inner circle and accuse him of helping Bin Laden escape justice following the September 11, 2001 attacks."
and
"Unlike in U.S. civilian criminal trials, some coerced and hearsay evidence is allowed under the revised military commissions and an acquittal is not likely to result in the defendant being released.(emphasis mine)
The jury is being selected from a pool of 13 U.S. military officers brought to Guantanamo from posts around the world. The final panel will consist of at least five jurors."
LINK
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Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/22/2008 4:37:46 PM
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Jhud
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Actually, I think he admits to being Osama's driver, so I am not sure that needs to be alleged - what is at question is whether he was aware and willing to aid Osama.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 7/22/2008 5:08:30 PM >
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/22/2008 4:47:03 PM
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davemiller7
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According to Fox News last evening, the presiding judge threw out a whole bunch of "coerced" evidence.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Osama Bin Laden's alleged taxi driver is finally being tried under the Military Commission Court tribunal.
"He is charged with conspiracy and providing material support for terrorism. He faces life in prison if convicted.
Hamdan's attorneys say he was a driver for Osama Bin Laden but was not involved in any terrorist activity. Prosecutors say he was close to al-Qaida's inner circle and accuse him of helping Bin Laden escape justice following the September 11, 2001 attacks."
and
"Unlike in U.S. civilian criminal trials, some coerced and hearsay evidence is allowed under the revised military commissions and an acquittal is not likely to result in the defendant being released.(emphasis mine)
The jury is being selected from a pool of 13 U.S. military officers brought to Guantanamo from posts around the world. The final panel will consist of at least five jurors."
LINK
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/22/2008 4:47:55 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1500
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Trying to figure out whether Jhud is being sneaky or merely freudian. heeheehee.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/22/2008 5:07:23 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7594
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quote:
Trying to figure out whether Jhud is being sneaky or merely freudian. heeheehee.
Arrrrghhhhh!!!!! I would never intentionally do that! That is what I get for going back and forth between two threads!
Well, at least I am not alone...
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/23/2008 10:25:57 AM
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davemiller7
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"Uncoerced" evidence, as in evidence discovered, or, evidence given FREELY, like with witnesses present that will swear that he wasn't "tortured" into giving it up. Duh!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
According to Fox News last evening, the presiding judge threw out a whole bunch of "coerced" evidence.
-Dave
Uhhhhhhhhh, what's left, then?
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/23/2008 11:50:01 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
"Uncoerced" evidence, as in evidence discovered, or, evidence given FREELY, like with witnesses present that will swear that he wasn't "tortured" into giving it up. Duh!
-Dave
Oh ......... you mean "evidence" like this:
Salim Hamdan led agents to the al-Qaida chief's compounds in Kandahar and mapped out his movements among safehouses, training camps and other remote corners of Afghanistan in the month following the Sept. 11 attacks, FBI special agent Robert Fuller said at a pretrial hearing.
He drew maps identifying key locations including a guesthouse frequented by al-Qaida members, according to testimony Wednesday. Hamdan's assistance continued after he arrived at Guantanamo in May 2002.
"I was trying to gain information from an individual who could help us," said St. Ours, who questioned Hamdan here three times the month he arrived in Cuba.
But a sixth, FBI agent George Crouch, said Hamdan told him he had been moved into solitary confinement during their sessions here in July 2002. Crouch said he protested to military commanders at the detention center, who moved him out of solitary, but he could not re-establish rapport.
"It really hurt what was going on and what we were trying to accomplish," Crouch said.
LINK
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/23/2008 3:18:01 PM
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rlj
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Oh wow Cow that would be hysterical if it wasn't so pathetic.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/24/2008 10:53:13 AM
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davemiller7
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Does this Crouch character have more credibility than the others? I assume that you think so. I just wonder why you're so eager to accept words of people who are opposed to our government and to bash those who stand up for our government.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
"Uncoerced" evidence, as in evidence discovered, or, evidence given FREELY, like with witnesses present that will swear that he wasn't "tortured" into giving it up. Duh!
-Dave
Oh ......... you mean "evidence" like this:
Salim Hamdan led agents to the al-Qaida chief's compounds in Kandahar and mapped out his movements among safehouses, training camps and other remote corners of Afghanistan in the month following the Sept. 11 attacks, FBI special agent Robert Fuller said at a pretrial hearing.
He drew maps identifying key locations including a guesthouse frequented by al-Qaida members, according to testimony Wednesday. Hamdan's assistance continued after he arrived at Guantanamo in May 2002.
"I was trying to gain information from an individual who could help us," said St. Ours, who questioned Hamdan here three times the month he arrived in Cuba.
But a sixth, FBI agent George Crouch, said Hamdan told him he had been moved into solitary confinement during their sessions here in July 2002. Crouch said he protested to military commanders at the detention center, who moved him out of solitary, but he could not re-establish rapport.
"It really hurt what was going on and what we were trying to accomplish," Crouch said.
LINK
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/24/2008 12:07:57 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Does this Crouch character have more credibility than the others? I assume that you think so. I just wonder why you're so eager to accept words of people who are opposed to our government and to bash those who stand up for our government.
Sure, he's only an FBI (the "F" stands for Federal, BTW) agent closely involved in the interrogation. What does he know? Yeah those FBI guys are reknowned for their bleeding hearts, LOL. Nobody has come forward to question his credibility.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/24/2008 1:07:07 PM
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davemiller7
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So is he the only one to be believed? Are all the others lying? Doesn't matter. Don't bother answering. I've seen plenty of your other posts and I can tell where you're coming from.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Does this Crouch character have more credibility than the others? I assume that you think so. I just wonder why you're so eager to accept words of people who are opposed to our government and to bash those who stand up for our government.
Sure, he's only an FBI (the "F" stands for Federal, BTW) agent closely involved in the interrogation. What does he know? Yeah those FBI guys are reknowned for their bleeding hearts, LOL. Nobody has come forward to question his credibility.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/24/2008 2:34:59 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
So is he the only one to be believed? Are all the others lying? Doesn't matter. Don't bother answering. I've seen plenty of your other posts and I can tell where you're coming from.
-Dave
People testify to what they saw and heard. The whole of testimony makes up a case. It does not mean that any others were lying.
From my last link:
Salim Hamdan led agents to the al-Qaida chief's compounds in Kandahar and mapped out his movements among safehouses, training camps and other remote corners of Afghanistan in the month following the Sept. 11 attacks, FBI special agent Robert Fuller said at a pretrial hearing.
So, we have a second FBI agent saying Hamdan aided in the hunt for Bin Laden. That means you accuse two FBI agents of lying.
Looks like there were clear distinctions between how the military and FBI handle interrogation. I am anxious to hear the government's case. Since we already know he was Bin Laden's driver, there must be more evidence to prove he participated in planning and carrying out terrorist attacks.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/24/2008 2:42:52 PM
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rlj
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quote:
People testify to what they saw and heard. The whole of testimony makes up a case. It does not mean that any others were lying.
Well anyone who doesn't fully endorse and corraborate what the administration says regarding the GWoR is obviously a liar, communist, satanist, librul and wants to blow up you and your city with a dirty bomb. You're also a bleeding heart for even insinuating that these men giving testimony against His Excellencies personal war could possibly be telling the truth when they contradict him.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/24/2008 2:47:31 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
People testify to what they saw and heard. The whole of testimony makes up a case. It does not mean that any others were lying.
Well anyone who doesn't fully endorse and corraborate what the administration says regarding the GWoR is obviously a liar, communist, satanist, librul and wants to blow up you and your city with a dirty bomb. You're also a bleeding heart for even insinuating that these men giving testimony against His Excellencies personal war could possibly be telling the truth when they contradict him.
A thousand pardons. What must I have been thinking? Those FBI scoundrels must be stopped!
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/24/2008 3:44:27 PM
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rlj
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On the topic though I was never convinced this man was anything more than a toadie. Sounds like he squeeled like a toadie to.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/24/2008 6:06:13 PM
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cow451
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Opening arguments LINK:Prosecutors said Wednesday that Hamdan was one of very few people who knew that the jet that crashed into a field in Pennsylvania was intended for the U.S. Capitol, because he overheard a conversation between bin Laden and his deputy.
and
The tribunal's chief prosecutor, Colonel Lawrence Morris, defended the trial at a briefing at the U.S. naval base in Cuba Tuesday.
"In my opinion, they're seeing the most just war crimes trial that anybody has ever seen - with more due process, more protection for an accused person and a more sophisticated balancing of protections for an accused with the legitimate interests of the government, primarily of course those being national security," said Colonel Morris.
So far, he's Bin Laden's driver and he overheard a conversation about one of the 9/11 airliners.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/24/2008 6:47:57 PM
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davemiller7
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From: NC via NY
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Yeah, what a guy!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Opening arguments LINK:Prosecutors said Wednesday that Hamdan was one of very few people who knew that the jet that crashed into a field in Pennsylvania was intended for the U.S. Capitol, because he overheard a conversation between bin Laden and his deputy.
and
The tribunal's chief prosecutor, Colonel Lawrence Morris, defended the trial at a briefing at the U.S. naval base in Cuba Tuesday.
"In my opinion, they're seeing the most just war crimes trial that anybody has ever seen - with more due process, more protection for an accused person and a more sophisticated balancing of protections for an accused with the legitimate interests of the government, primarily of course those being national security," said Colonel Morris.
So far, he's Bin Laden's driver and he overheard a conversation about one of the 9/11 airliners.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/25/2008 11:14:22 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Yeah, what a guy!
-Dave
What a great retort!
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/25/2008 11:56:14 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1086
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From: NC via NY
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Do you want to pin a medal on the driver? Build a statue of him? He got caught and got busted! Now he's crying and so are you. I repeat: what a guy!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Yeah, what a guy!
-Dave
What a great retort!
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/25/2008 12:44:48 PM
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galadriel2
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Cow - respectfully - By 'coerced' - do they mean the answers that they got out of him after torturing him? I think I'll stick with the normal 'civilian' stuff. Best to stick with the traditional 'rules of evidence' precedent, it seems to me. I distrust highly a change of rules when so much emotion is involved in the case - the orchestration of 3,000 precious American souls ruthlessly murdered by the person who this person on trial drove around. Don't you think that the emotion of revenge isn't more why the 'rules of evidence' are 'slightly changed' rather than a concern about justice?
God bless abundantly,
Galadriel2
< Message edited by galadriel2 -- 7/25/2008 12:53:22 PM >
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/25/2008 1:07:17 PM
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galadriel2
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I don't know. I think the jury should be a selection of American civilians from across the country since the crimes involved were committed against civilians by civilians. Why just pick military people?
God bless abundantly,
Galadriel2
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RE: Bin Laden's Driver Finally on Trial - 7/25/2008 3:28:32 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1086
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Maybe, just maybe, it is taking so long is because every i must be dotted and every t crossed so that lawyers can't have the case thrown out on a technicality. I don't know the facts, but I do know how SOME lawyers operate, so I'm only speculating about the time frame.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
I simply want to hear the evidence before I conclude he was anything more than a taxi driver. So, far, the prosecution hasn't done much. You read an awful lot into my posts. Yes, I am critical of the governments inability to put together a legal framework. The one that exists my be adequate, but it shouldn't have taken this long to develop. Hamdan has been in custody six (6) years and he apparently sang an opera after being captured.
So, my trust in this process is a bit low. Maybe the government is going with this case first to "work out the bugs" in the tribunal process. Worst case, Hamdan gets acquitted and stays in prison anyway.
None of this fits your "great guy" nonsense. 
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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