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Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 5:24:55 AM
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dinomax55
Posts: 249
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From: O-H-I-O
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I pulled this from the AP:
By JIM KUHNHENN, Associated Press Writer Wed Sep 3, 11:48 PM ET
ST. PAUL, Minn. - Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and her Republican supporters held back little Wednesday as they issued dismissive attacks on Barack Obama and flattering praise on her credentials to be vice president. In some cases, the reproach and the praise stretched the truth.
ADVERTISEMENT
Some examples:
PALIN: "I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending ... and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress 'thanks but no thanks' for that Bridge to Nowhere."
THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."
PALIN: "There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform — not even in the state senate."
THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation that expanded efforts to intercept illegal shipments of weapons of mass destruction and to help destroy conventional weapons stockpiles. The legislation became law last year. To demean that accomplishment would be to also demean the work of Republican Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, a respected foreign policy voice in the Senate. In Illinois, he was the leader on two big, contentious measures in Illinois: studying racial profiling by police and requiring recordings of interrogations in potential death penalty cases. He also successfully co-sponsored major ethics reform legislation.
PALIN: "The Democratic nominee for president supports plans to raise income taxes, raise payroll taxes, raise investment income taxes, raise the death tax, raise business taxes, and increase the tax burden on the American people by hundreds of billions of dollars."
THE FACTS: The Tax Policy Center, a think tank run jointly by the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute, concluded that Obama's plan would increase after-tax income for middle-income taxpayers by about 5 percent by 2012, or nearly $2,200 annually. McCain's plan, which cuts taxes across all income levels, would raise after tax-income for middle-income taxpayers by 3 percent, the center concluded.
Obama would provide $80 billion in tax breaks, mainly for poor workers and the elderly, including tripling the Earned Income Tax Credit for minimum-wage workers and higher credits for larger families.
He also would raise income taxes, capital gains and dividend taxes on the wealthiest. He would raise payroll taxes on taxpayers with incomes above $250,000, and he would raise corporate taxes. Small businesses that make more than $250,000 a year would see taxes rise.
MCCAIN: "She's been governor of our largest state, in charge of 20 percent of America's energy supply ... She's responsible for 20 percent of the nation's energy supply. I'm entertained by the comparison and I hope we can keep making that comparison that running a political campaign is somehow comparable to being the executive of the largest state in America," he said in an interview with ABC News' Charles Gibson.
THE FACTS: McCain's phrasing exaggerates both claims. Palin is governor of a state that ranks second nationally in crude oil production, but she's no more "responsible" for that resource than President Bush was when he was governor of Texas, another oil-producing state. In fact, her primary power is the ability to tax oil, which she did in concert with the Alaska Legislature. And where Alaska is the largest state in America, McCain could as easily have called it the 47th largest state — by population.
MCCAIN: "She's the commander of the Alaska National Guard. ... She has been in charge, and she has had national security as one of her primary responsibilities," he said on ABC.
THE FACTS: While governors are in charge of their state guard units, that authority ends whenever those units are called to actual military service. When guard units are deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, for example, they assume those duties under "federal status," which means they report to the Defense Department, not their governors. Alaska's national guard units have a total of about 4,200 personnel, among the smallest of state guard organizations.
FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."
THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.
FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOV. MITT ROMNEY: "We need change, all right — change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington — throw out the big-government liberals, and elect John McCain and Sarah Palin."
THE FACTS: A Back-to-the-Future moment. George W. Bush, a conservative Republican, has been president for nearly eight years. And until last year, Republicans controlled Congress. Only since January 2007 have Democrats have been in charge of the House and Senate.
_____________________________
We can never achieve perfection.. but if we chase perfection we will catch excellence.
-Vince Lombardi
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 6:18:44 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 1752
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First, very little of that came from Palin's speech but from other people's speeches or comments about her. But that's not important.
The only thing I see there that's not pure talking points and doesn't boil down to "he said, she said" propaganda, the only thing that holds water, might be the Bridge to Nowhere. From what I can tell, she started out going along with something as a newly elected Governor and then realized her Senator was a crook and the thing was over the top and out of control and pulled the plug. It's a little disingenuous to attack on this basis but I would like to see her explanation . . . although Obama's not asked to explain anything at all so why should she except for my own curiosity?
I find the Bridge to Nowhere interesting. I'd heard it talked about but never paid much attention - I'm in Florida, couldn't be further from Alaska. But, FYI, what I've only recently realized -it's not a bridge to NOWHERE! It's a bridge that was proposed to a little island with a small city (including an airport) on it. People do have to be able to get off and on that island. A bridge was proposed and the funding was gotten by somewhat questionable political wranglings. When it was re-examined, it was determind upgrades to the ferry system were much more reasonable and perfectly adequate. But I'd like to know more about how it all transpired.
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 6:45:13 AM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1312
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
although Obama's not asked to explain anything at all so why should she except for my own curiosity?
He was constantly asked about his former pastor for starters. Why do you think he held so many press conferences on the subject and eventually announced his departure from that church. And his wife had to defend her patriotism so while you might be able to build a case that some oputlets in the media have been soft on Obama its a stretch to say Obama is not asked to explain anything at all. Hyperbole just weakens a case.
It might be a sign that Obama has not done much that is noteworthy which means there isn't much to ask about action wise.
_____________________________
Be my friend!
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 7:26:19 AM
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Lizahana
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Thanks for posting this, dinomax55 - I'll have to read later.
Peace and God bless,
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 7:51:09 AM
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Ex-GOPer4Obama
Posts: 38
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
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THANKS FOR POSTING THIS!
quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
I pulled this from the AP:
By JIM KUHNHENN, Associated Press Writer Wed Sep 3, 11:48 PM ET
ST. PAUL, Minn. - Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and her Republican supporters held back little Wednesday as they issued dismissive attacks on Barack Obama and flattering praise on her credentials to be vice president. In some cases, the reproach and the praise stretched the truth.
ADVERTISEMENT
Some examples:
PALIN: "I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending ... and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress 'thanks but no thanks' for that Bridge to Nowhere."
THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."
PALIN: "There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform — not even in the state senate."
THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation that expanded efforts to intercept illegal shipments of weapons of mass destruction and to help destroy conventional weapons stockpiles. The legislation became law last year. To demean that accomplishment would be to also demean the work of Republican Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, a respected foreign policy voice in the Senate. In Illinois, he was the leader on two big, contentious measures in Illinois: studying racial profiling by police and requiring recordings of interrogations in potential death penalty cases. He also successfully co-sponsored major ethics reform legislation.
PALIN: "The Democratic nominee for president supports plans to raise income taxes, raise payroll taxes, raise investment income taxes, raise the death tax, raise business taxes, and increase the tax burden on the American people by hundreds of billions of dollars."
THE FACTS: The Tax Policy Center, a think tank run jointly by the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute, concluded that Obama's plan would increase after-tax income for middle-income taxpayers by about 5 percent by 2012, or nearly $2,200 annually. McCain's plan, which cuts taxes across all income levels, would raise after tax-income for middle-income taxpayers by 3 percent, the center concluded.
Obama would provide $80 billion in tax breaks, mainly for poor workers and the elderly, including tripling the Earned Income Tax Credit for minimum-wage workers and higher credits for larger families.
He also would raise income taxes, capital gains and dividend taxes on the wealthiest. He would raise payroll taxes on taxpayers with incomes above $250,000, and he would raise corporate taxes. Small businesses that make more than $250,000 a year would see taxes rise.
MCCAIN: "She's been governor of our largest state, in charge of 20 percent of America's energy supply ... She's responsible for 20 percent of the nation's energy supply. I'm entertained by the comparison and I hope we can keep making that comparison that running a political campaign is somehow comparable to being the executive of the largest state in America," he said in an interview with ABC News' Charles Gibson.
THE FACTS: McCain's phrasing exaggerates both claims. Palin is governor of a state that ranks second nationally in crude oil production, but she's no more "responsible" for that resource than President Bush was when he was governor of Texas, another oil-producing state. In fact, her primary power is the ability to tax oil, which she did in concert with the Alaska Legislature. And where Alaska is the largest state in America, McCain could as easily have called it the 47th largest state — by population.
MCCAIN: "She's the commander of the Alaska National Guard. ... She has been in charge, and she has had national security as one of her primary responsibilities," he said on ABC.
THE FACTS: While governors are in charge of their state guard units, that authority ends whenever those units are called to actual military service. When guard units are deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, for example, they assume those duties under "federal status," which means they report to the Defense Department, not their governors. Alaska's national guard units have a total of about 4,200 personnel, among the smallest of state guard organizations.
FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."
THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.
FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOV. MITT ROMNEY: "We need change, all right — change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington — throw out the big-government liberals, and elect John McCain and Sarah Palin."
THE FACTS: A Back-to-the-Future moment. George W. Bush, a conservative Republican, has been president for nearly eight years. And until last year, Republicans controlled Congress. Only since January 2007 have Democrats have been in charge of the House and Senate.
Thanks for posting this. Truthfulness and fair play have certainly been been a scarce commodity among the Loyal Bushies over the past 8 years, and it looks like that's going to continue if they get another 4 years. There were quite a few other misleading statements in the speeches Wednesday night. To name one, Palin denigrated Barack Obama as having been a mere "community organizer" prior to being elected to the Illinois State Legislature, conveniently overlooking the fact that this Harvard Law School grad was also working as a professor of constitutional law at the prestigious University of Chicago Law School. Obama could have taken a high-paying job somewhere (or become mayor of some little town) but instead he chose to work with people who were facing hard times, and he helped make a difference in their lives. Yet Palin mock's that work. How could this "fresh breath of air" be so full of cynicism and disrespect? I think Palin's many caustic comments about a brother in Christ are unworthy of a Christian woman. I know a lot of Obama supporters who need to find the Lord, but when they hear Palin saying such mean-spirited things with a big smile, I am concerned that they will want no part of Sarah Palin's God. As an ambassador for Christ, Palin needs to be mindful that the world is listening to the words that come from her mouth. Rather than serve as John McCain's beautiful but vicious attack dog, Palin should be elevating the tone of the McCain campaign. I would have liked to have heard Palin speak without any input from Karl Rove's speech writers.
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 8:38:13 AM
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Bob_George
Posts: 177
Joined: 9/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."
THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.
I couldn't believe what I heard when Huckabee said that. I couldn't believe that he said such a ridiculous think and I couldn't believe the thousands of people in the auditorium who cheered when he said that. It's exactly like Obama said, "it's like they take pride in being ignorant". Why would they cheer for that? Are they proud that there's an idiot on stage making wild and ridiculous statements? Did they actually think that was plausible that Palin got more votes for Mayor than Biden did for President?
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 8:58:31 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bob_George
quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."
THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.
I couldn't believe what I heard when Huckabee said that. I couldn't believe that he said such a ridiculous think and I couldn't believe the thousands of people in the auditorium who cheered when he said that. It's exactly like Obama said, "it's like they take pride in being ignorant". Why would they cheer for that? Are they proud that there's an idiot on stage making wild and ridiculous statements? Did they actually think that was plausible that Palin got more votes for Mayor than Biden did for President?
Just a question on this "fact check"...
Isn't the Iowa caucus the first of the state primaries?
Biden got less than 1% of the vote in that caucus and dropped out. How many votes did that amount to? Seems to me if he dropped out at that time the votes cast for him after that really don't matter do they?
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:15:25 AM
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Bob_George
Posts: 177
Joined: 9/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bob_George
quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."
THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.
I couldn't believe what I heard when Huckabee said that. I couldn't believe that he said such a ridiculous think and I couldn't believe the thousands of people in the auditorium who cheered when he said that. It's exactly like Obama said, "it's like they take pride in being ignorant". Why would they cheer for that? Are they proud that there's an idiot on stage making wild and ridiculous statements? Did they actually think that was plausible that Palin got more votes for Mayor than Biden did for President?
Just a question on this "fact check"...
Isn't the Iowa caucus the first of the state primaries?
Biden got less than 1% of the vote in that caucus and dropped out. How many votes did that amount to? Seems to me if he dropped out at that time the votes cast for him after that really don't matter do they?
Well that's like saying the 18 million votes for Hillary Clinton didn't matter when in fact they mattered a lot because as she put it, she didn't break the "glass ceiling" (the "glass ceiling" being a metaphor for electing a woman president), but she put about 18 million cracks in it. Her primary run and all the votes she got really did a lot for equality for women in US politics and will be written into the history books. That the closest a woman has ever come to being President. But anyway, below is a like to the complete results of the Democratic primaries. The popular vote and pledged delegates for every 2008 candidate for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States.
http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/D.phtml
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:17:57 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bob_George
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bob_George
quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."
THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.
I couldn't believe what I heard when Huckabee said that. I couldn't believe that he said such a ridiculous think and I couldn't believe the thousands of people in the auditorium who cheered when he said that. It's exactly like Obama said, "it's like they take pride in being ignorant". Why would they cheer for that? Are they proud that there's an idiot on stage making wild and ridiculous statements? Did they actually think that was plausible that Palin got more votes for Mayor than Biden did for President?
Just a question on this "fact check"...
Isn't the Iowa caucus the first of the state primaries?
Biden got less than 1% of the vote in that caucus and dropped out. How many votes did that amount to? Seems to me if he dropped out at that time the votes cast for him after that really don't matter do they?
http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/D.phtml
you are dodging dubya's claim...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:20:57 AM
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Bob_George
Posts: 177
Joined: 9/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
you are dodging dubya's claim...
OK, I'll try again. Check my edit.
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:23:14 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1956
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bob_George
quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."
THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.
I couldn't believe what I heard when Huckabee said that. I couldn't believe that he said such a ridiculous think and I couldn't believe the thousands of people in the auditorium who cheered when he said that. It's exactly like Obama said, "it's like they take pride in being ignorant". Why would they cheer for that? Are they proud that there's an idiot on stage making wild and ridiculous statements? Did they actually think that was plausible that Palin got more votes for Mayor than Biden did for President?
Just a question on this "fact check"...
Isn't the Iowa caucus the first of the state primaries?
Biden got less than 1% of the vote in that caucus and dropped out. How many votes did that amount to? Seems to me if he dropped out at that time the votes cast for him after that really don't matter do they?
Even if you only count Iowa, it's still not true. Biden got 2,328 votes. Source.
I checked the town of Wasilla's web site and their online records don't go back to 1996, but the figure of 909 for 1999 is correct.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:25:59 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bob_George
Well that's like saying the 18 million votes for Hillary Clinton didn't matter when in fact they mattered a lot because as she put it, she didn't break the "glass ceiling" (the "glass ceiling" being a metaphor for electing a woman president), but she put about 18 million cracks in it. Her primary run and all the votes she got really did a lot for equality for women in US politics and will be written into the history books. That the closest a woman has ever come to being President. But anyway, below is a like to the complete results of the Democratic primaries. The popular vote and pledged delegates for every 2008 candidate for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States.
http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/D.phtml
still dodging...the claim was made about Biden, when he was campaigning.
Hillary is irrelevant, metaphor or no metaphor.
anwer dubya's claim.
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:28:58 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bob_George
quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."
THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.
I couldn't believe what I heard when Huckabee said that. I couldn't believe that he said such a ridiculous think and I couldn't believe the thousands of people in the auditorium who cheered when he said that. It's exactly like Obama said, "it's like they take pride in being ignorant". Why would they cheer for that? Are they proud that there's an idiot on stage making wild and ridiculous statements? Did they actually think that was plausible that Palin got more votes for Mayor than Biden did for President?
Just a question on this "fact check"...
Isn't the Iowa caucus the first of the state primaries?
Biden got less than 1% of the vote in that caucus and dropped out. How many votes did that amount to? Seems to me if he dropped out at that time the votes cast for him after that really don't matter do they?
Even if you only count Iowa, it's still not true. Biden got 2,328 votes. Source.
I checked the town of Wasilla's web site and their online records don't go back to 1996, but the figure of 909 for 1999 is correct.
-Dan.
that's more like it...thanks for the valid argument.
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:33:49 AM
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Bob_George
Posts: 177
Joined: 9/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
still dodging...the claim was made about Biden, when he was campaigning.
Hillary is irrelevant, metaphor or no metaphor.
anwer dubya's claim.
Well what I'm saying is that just as every vote for Hillary was a vote for women's right, was a vote for universal health care, every vote for Biden was a vote for an Iraq plan that makes sense, a vote for stricter gun laws etc. So those 80,000 voters voices were still heard. Their support for the policies Biden stands for were noted. So I don't think those 80,000 votes don't matter. I don't believe there's such a thing as a vote that doesn't matter. Every vote matters. Except when you're running against George W Bush. Then no matter how many votes you get, he'll still find a way to "win" the election.
quote:
that's more like it...thanks for the valid argument.
Oh, you wanted me to refute that part of the argument. Well that's not the part that I was getting at. I was refuting the statement that Biden's votes don't really matter because he dropped out. I believe his 80,000 votes do matter. Maybe in a more idealist way than a practical way. But still.
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:42:01 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bob_George
quote:
still dodging...the claim was made about Biden, when he was campaigning.
Hillary is irrelevant, metaphor or no metaphor.
anwer dubya's claim.
Well what I'm saying is that just as every vote for Hillary was a vote for women's right, was a vote for universal health care, every vote for Biden was a vote for an Iraq plan that makes sense, a vote for stricter gun laws etc. So those 80,000 voters voices were still heard. Their support for the policies Biden stands for were noted. So I don't think those 80,000 votes don't matter. I don't believe there's such a thing as a vote that doesn't matter. Every vote matters. Except when you're running against George W Bush. Then no matter how many votes you get, he'll still find a way to "win" the election.
quote:
that's more like it...thanks for the valid argument.
Oh, you wanted me to refute that part of the argument. Well that's not the part that I was getting at. I was refuting the statement that Biden's votes don't really matter because he dropped out. I believe his 80,000 votes do matter. Maybe in a more idealist way than a practical way. But still.
dually noted, but when one concedes and drops out of a race, idealism is a brash waste of time...i could vote for Rich Mullins (figuratively speaking) even though he is dead.
smell the color 9.
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:43:34 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2127
Joined: 1/27/2007
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Didn't it dawn on you that this story, with all it's detail, was on the wire within ONE HOUR of her speech? That's pretty fast 'fact checking' isn't it?
One hour. And, look how detailed his facts are constructed. This means that he loaded his guns well prior to her speech and was able to pick and choose how he was going to counter what was said no matter what was brought up. It was a setup.
It is this kind of overplaying of their hands that the old media is allowing itself to engage in that 'outs' them as Obama supporters and not true reporters.
This appeared to you to be a NEWS STORY. But, in fact it was a POLITICAL TALKING POINTS opinion peice. And, shame on AP for putting it on the wire without labeling as such.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
I pulled this from the AP:
By JIM KUHNHENN, Associated Press Writer Wed Sep 3, 11:48 PM ET
ST. PAUL, Minn. - Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and her Republican supporters held back little Wednesday as they issued dismissive attacks on Barack Obama and flattering praise on her credentials to be vice president. In some cases, the reproach and the praise stretched the truth.
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Some examples:
PALIN: "I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending ... and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress 'thanks but no thanks' for that Bridge to Nowhere."
THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."
PALIN: "There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform — not even in the state senate."
THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation that expanded efforts to intercept illegal shipments of weapons of mass destruction and to help destroy conventional weapons stockpiles. The legislation became law last year. To demean that accomplishment would be to also demean the work of Republican Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, a respected foreign policy voice in the Senate. In Illinois, he was the leader on two big, contentious measures in Illinois: studying racial profiling by police and requiring recordings of interrogations in potential death penalty cases. He also successfully co-sponsored major ethics reform legislation.
PALIN: "The Democratic nominee for president supports plans to raise income taxes, raise payroll taxes, raise investment income taxes, raise the death tax, raise business taxes, and increase the tax burden on the American people by hundreds of billions of dollars."
THE FACTS: The Tax Policy Center, a think tank run jointly by the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute, concluded that Obama's plan would increase after-tax income for middle-income taxpayers by about 5 percent by 2012, or nearly $2,200 annually. McCain's plan, which cuts taxes across all income levels, would raise after tax-income for middle-income taxpayers by 3 percent, the center concluded.
Obama would provide $80 billion in tax breaks, mainly for poor workers and the elderly, including tripling the Earned Income Tax Credit for minimum-wage workers and higher credits for larger families.
He also would raise income taxes, capital gains and dividend taxes on the wealthiest. He would raise payroll taxes on taxpayers with incomes above $250,000, and he would raise corporate taxes. Small businesses that make more than $250,000 a year would see taxes rise.
MCCAIN: "She's been governor of our largest state, in charge of 20 percent of America's energy supply ... She's responsible for 20 percent of the nation's energy supply. I'm entertained by the comparison and I hope we can keep making that comparison that running a political campaign is somehow comparable to being the executive of the largest state in America," he said in an interview with ABC News' Charles Gibson.
THE FACTS: McCain's phrasing exaggerates both claims. Palin is governor of a state that ranks second nationally in crude oil production, but she's no more "responsible" for that resource than President Bush was when he was governor of Texas, another oil-producing state. In fact, her primary power is the ability to tax oil, which she did in concert with the Alaska Legislature. And where Alaska is the largest state in America, McCain could as easily have called it the 47th largest state — by population.
MCCAIN: "She's the commander of the Alaska National Guard. ... She has been in charge, and she has had national security as one of her primary responsibilities," he said on ABC.
THE FACTS: While governors are in charge of their state guard units, that authority ends whenever those units are called to actual military service. When guard units are deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, for example, they assume those duties under "federal status," which means they report to the Defense Department, not their governors. Alaska's national guard units have a total of about 4,200 personnel, among the smallest of state guard organizations.
FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."
THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.
FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOV. MITT ROMNEY: "We need change, all right — change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington — throw out the big-government liberals, and elect John McCain and Sarah Palin."
THE FACTS: A Back-to-the-Future moment. George W. Bush, a conservative Republican, has been president for nearly eight years. And until last year, Republicans controlled Congress. Only since January 2007 have Democrats have been in charge of the House and Senate.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:45:19 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2127
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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Not by the Old Media... but, by the New Media.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
quote:
although Obama's not asked to explain anything at all so why should she except for my own curiosity?
He was constantly asked about his former pastor for starters. Why do you think he held so many press conferences on the subject and eventually announced his departure from that church. And his wife had to defend her patriotism so while you might be able to build a case that some oputlets in the media have been soft on Obama its a stretch to say Obama is not asked to explain anything at all. Hyperbole just weakens a case.
It might be a sign that Obama has not done much that is noteworthy which means there isn't much to ask about action wise.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:50:08 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2171
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Didn't it dawn on you that this story, with all it's detail, was on the wire within ONE HOUR of her speech? That's pretty fast 'fact checking' isn't it?
Did it occur to you with an excellent ISP, knowledge of google and following events in general that one could easily put together a piece twice that size in an hour?
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:50:24 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2127
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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Don't forget to look at the time it was put on the wires. That's a lot of so-called 'fact checking' to be done in such detail in an hour. One had to pick the quotes, find the 'facts' and write the article with remarkable speed and get it by the editors... unless the writer had already been fed the democrat talking points and position papers.
To me, having been in the media covering past elections, the speed with which this was filed and on the wires is a red flag that exposes serious bias at AP.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Thanks for posting this, dinomax55 - I'll have to read later.
Peace and God bless,
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:59:18 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
Didn't it dawn on you that this story, with all it's detail, was on the wire within ONE HOUR of her speech? That's pretty fast 'fact checking' isn't it?
One hour. And, look how detailed his facts are constructed. This means that he loaded his guns well prior to her speech and was able to pick and choose how he was going to counter what was said no matter what was brought up. It was a setup.
It is this kind of overplaying of their hands that the old media is allowing itself to engage in that 'outs' them as Obama supporters and not true reporters.
This appeared to you to be a NEWS STORY. But, in fact it was a POLITICAL TALKING POINTS opinion peice. And, shame on AP for putting it on the wire without labeling as such.
So, your *rebuttal* amounts to 'he had his facts too straight' and 'he published it too quickly' - hardly condemning points. And apparently, the concept of 'prior release to the media', a practice so common that it merits mention only when it DOESN'T happen, never occured to you at all. Between having a longer lead time to work with than you assume, and having a better grip on historical fact (which one woiuld expect of a competent reporter) than you allow for, having his article published within an hour is hardly surprising.
You move on to a 'prejudicial language' error in logic, if not a total non sequitor, in attempting to dismiss the article as an op-ed piece, while making no attempt whatsoever to refute the facts OR the logic contained therein.
I won't even address the evident paranoia exhibited in your baseless attack on the 'old media' - res ipse loquitor, as well as begging the question.
You had every opportunity to challenge the facts expressed and to derail the logic leading to his stated conclusions - and not only failed, but didn't even make the attempt.
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 9:59:42 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1956
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
This appeared to you to be a NEWS STORY. But, in fact it was a POLITICAL TALKING POINTS opinion peice. And, shame on AP for putting it on the wire without labeling as such.
I agree that it's an opinion piece and I, too was surprised to see that it came from the AP, but that still doesn't address the accuracy of it. For all the harping that posters here have done about Obama allegedly lying about his voting record, let's see some consistency. How do these points square with the notion of truth and honesty?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Fact- Checking on Palin's Speech - 9/4/2008 10:01:44 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
Didn't it dawn on you that this story, with all it's detail, was on the wire within ONE HOUR of her speech? That's pretty fast 'fact checking' isn't it?
One hour. And, look how detailed his facts are constructed. This means that he loaded his guns well prior to her speech and was able to pick and choose how he was going to counter what was said no matter what was brought up. It was a setup.
It is this kind of overplaying of their hands that the old media is allowing itself to engage in that 'outs' them as Obama supporters and not true reporters.
This appeared to you to be a NEWS STORY. But, in fact it was a POLITICAL TALKING POINTS opinion peice. And, shame on AP for putting it on the wire without labeling as such.
So, your *rebuttal* amounts to 'he had his facts too straight' and 'he published it too quickly' - hardly condemning points.
You move on to a 'prejudicial language' error in logic, if not a total non sequitor, in attempting to dismiss the article as an op-ed piece, while making no attempt whatsoever to refute the facts OR the logic contained therein.
I won't even address the evident paranoia exhibited in your baseless attack on the 'old media' - res ipse loquitor, as well as begging the question.
You had every opportunity to challenge the facts expressed and to derail the logic leading to his stated conclusions - and not only failed, but didn't even make the attempt.
if you say something like that, tactfully...then, perhaps they might listen.
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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