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Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/21/2008 4:55:22 PM
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OldSchoolBeliever
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As people may have already read, I am an old fashioned Pentecostal who has studied a lot on the Charasmatics/Latter Day Rain/Third Wave recently. What astounds me is the lack of reverence or fear for a Holy God in worship services. Everything is man centered or induced by man to where one could cry ICHABOD(the Spirit of the Lord has departed).
Has God been reduced to a circus or carnival attraction to these people?
Banner worship and dancing, gold teeth, rock concerts in the Church(under the guise of Jesus name), prayer language contrary to the Holy Ghost Himself giving the utterance for one to speak in tongues to name a few. The charasmatic chaos at the Bentley revival in Florida and the deceptive teachings and chicken and animal sounds of revivals such as Toronto.
It reminds me of how the people arose to play before the Golden Calf as Moses was on Mt Sinai. God is a Holy God and a God of order. I do believe in people running the aisles and being consumed by the power of the Holy Ghost. But the key is that it must be God ministering to the person and not the person being in the flesh so to speak. God can really help a person through a true Holy Ghost blessing but these charasmatics as a whole do not understand that concept.
It makes me wonder how angry God must feel when people take his House of Worship lightly.
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/21/2008 5:07:41 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
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From: a mother who let me live
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After he got home from his church, my husband took me out for lunch, and we discussed this stuff. He had never heard of the gold dust falling from the ceiling (a cute little trick I could easily reproduce, given a few minutes with my embossing gold dust), the gold fillings, followed by the gold teeth, then the topaz powder like dandruff in some dude's hair (also easily reproducible), and the diamonds falling on people, he was astounded. He had no idea that this stuff was going on. Neither would I have, were it not for the Internet.
I wonder where it's all going next. Someone has to come up with an even more spectacular show. Now, holy water that turns to Pepsi that tastes like Pepsi but has all the calories safely removed would be nice. Maybe even having the communion crackers turning to chocolate. That would work! They could do that using that stuff they call "white chocolate." Some people like that stuff and think it really is chocolate.
But there has to be a show, an experience, some excitement, something to brag about. We are no longer satisfied with the simple Truth; we must be entertained.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/21/2008 5:24:19 PM
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OldSchoolBeliever
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/21/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
After he got home from his church, my husband took me out for lunch, and we discussed this stuff. He had never heard of the gold dust falling from the ceiling (a cute little trick I could easily reproduce, given a few minutes with my embossing gold dust), the gold fillings, followed by the gold teeth, then the topaz powder like dandruff in some dude's hair (also easily reproducible), and the diamonds falling on people, he was astounded. He had no idea that this stuff was going on. Neither would I have, were it not for the Internet.
I wonder where it's all going next. Someone has to come up with an even more spectacular show. Now, holy water that turns to Pepsi that tastes like Pepsi but has all the calories safely removed would be nice. Maybe even having the communion crackers turning to chocolate. That would work! They could do that using that stuff they call "white chocolate." Some people like that stuff and think it really is chocolate.
But there has to be a show, an experience, some excitement, something to brag about. We are no longer satisfied with the simple Truth; we must be entertained.
And no wonder that many people are now turned off by Church. The Charasmatics have really hurt true Biblical Pentecost because mainstream America automatically thinks of Charasmatics when they think of Pentecostals.
Now, I have read about the "token the Ghost" fad. It is just getting more blasphemous, unGodly and downright insane in nature. And no doubt Satan is sitting back laughing away as the Church has lost all discernment. God must be truly longsuffering to continue to allow his Spirit to be mocked.
But you are very correct in that some charlatan is probably going to introduce a way to even make Holy Water appealing.
I remember even as a child the awe and wonder and reverence of God's House of worship and the tremendous fear and respect I had for the House of the Lord. Nowadays to people it is no different than going to a movie theatre but like you said is all about entertainment.
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/21/2008 5:37:10 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
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From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OldSchoolBeliever
Now, I have read about the "token the. . .
That is just sick. I had never heard of that until this moment.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/21/2008 9:53:57 PM
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PastorPatricia
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Gee here we've managed to trash Charismatics and Catholics in one thread! Not all charismatics are into these kind of things and I've absolutely had it with the Catholic bashing on these threads.
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/21/2008 9:58:08 PM
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rapturefish
Posts: 102
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Reverence brings to my mind a sense of distance and silence that may have been more in line with Old Testament temple practice (correct me if I'm wrong). But the early church of the New Testament was characterised by a Spirit-caused sense of community and unity, and people worshipped in public and in homes. It was an immediate and interactive experience and the sense of distance between peoples and classes was not present. This also reflected in the nearness of God in the person of the Holy Spirit as He now dwelled in people who are His. Unlike before, where God was not distant, and his chosen people were separated from other peoples and bound by the law, the same God now operates under grace as seen in the person of Jesus, His son.
So I'm not a fan of this image of reverence.
However, at the other end of the scale, some situations are just too rife with opportunities to hoodwink people, whether well-intentioned or not. It's too easy to say that God told you this or that, or to think you feel that God is going to do this or that when you are in an atmosphere where so many distractions are making it easy for people to be led by unsober intuitions.
I hate to say it because anyone in the past who would say that P/c's are too emotional, etc. I would pigeon-hole them as cessationists who are too much on the other end. But as someone who has been through both camps, the Pentecostal/charismatic culture - when it is more of the kind that emphasises spectacle over substance, and gifts at the expense of fruit, and media hype over still small voices - is an intoxicating drug that can get out of control easily.
Like the OP, I am all for people being intimate and expressive in worship of God, and being healed and letting the Holy Spirit take charge - but screen out the crazies. Have protocol to guard against abuses of this situation, let the Holy Spirit speak by turning our own volume down. Let tongues be for the church as the Bible says, and practice it in a way that benefits all, or doesn't detract from others when used. Let prophecies be weighed by the church and let it be about the whole gathering being edified and about loving others first.
The stereotypical P/c gathering may not be like this. Some definitely are though. But if you're talking about reverence then it's a matter of letting that guide every part of worship rather than the sense of OT distance that sprang to my mind. I suppose that picture of reverence I first talked about was a straw man, but it still seems a relevant distinction to make.
_____________________________
-- rapturefish --
One happy barramundi  [<><]
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/21/2008 10:56:30 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2495
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OldSchoolBeliever
As people may have already read, I am an old fashioned Pentecostal who has studied a lot on the Charasmatics/Latter Day Rain/Third Wave recently. What astounds me is the lack of reverence or fear for a Holy God in worship services. Everything is man centered or induced by man to where one could cry ICHABOD(the Spirit of the Lord has departed).
Has God been reduced to a circus or carnival attraction to these people?
Banner worship and dancing, gold teeth, rock concerts in the Church(under the guise of Jesus name), prayer language contrary to the Holy Ghost Himself giving the utterance for one to speak in tongues to name a few. The charasmatic chaos at the Bentley revival in Florida and the deceptive teachings and chicken and animal sounds of revivals such as Toronto.
It reminds me of how the people arose to play before the Golden Calf as Moses was on Mt Sinai. God is a Holy God and a God of order. I do believe in people running the aisles and being consumed by the power of the Holy Ghost. But the key is that it must be God ministering to the person and not the person being in the flesh so to speak. God can really help a person through a true Holy Ghost blessing but these charismatics as a whole do not understand that concept.
It makes me wonder how angry God must feel when people take his House of Worship lightly.
Greetings
quote:
As people may have already read, I am an old fashioned Pentecostal who has studied a lot on the Charasmatics/Latter Day Rain/Third Wave recently. What astounds me is the lack of reverence or fear for a Holy God in worship services. Everything is man centered or induced by man to where one could cry ICHABOD(the Spirit of the Lord has departed).
Has God been reduced to a circus or carnival attraction to these people?
No…Satan has been elevated to be like God, there is no scripture to support God being reduced.
2 Thess 2
quote:
Banner worship and dancing, gold teeth, rock concerts in the Church (under the guise of Jesus name)
What ever gold teeth mean I have no Idea?
But
What is the worship of banners?
And the worship of dance? 
…I mean….unless they have a juice bar in the local congregation with GoGo dancers; and are making sacrifices at the foot of banners, then what in your O constitutes the worship thereof?
Rock concerts by Christians appeal to the signs of the times and to the generation we are in;
Not like the generation that Jesus addressed which lost its sense of the times and let the world into the workings of the temple; which in like manner suggested worldly influences, and thereby lost the ability to discern…
Mt 16:3 - Show Context
and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, ….”but” ….you cannot interpret the signs of the times.
I can agree that some congregations to play off the lack of talent (anointing) within by using professional; and things like local musician unions and the unsaved……
But to the rest….
How does suggestions of worldly influences compare with Christian music that are discerning the signs of the times?
quote:
It makes me wonder how angry God must feel when people take his House of Worship lightly
Depends on how one defines the house of worship, because basically we are the house of the Lord,
….So I guess if it is by the worship of oneself you may have a point; but a house of worship has not been a building since the temple veil was torn from top to bottom.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/21/2008 11:38:45 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
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From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: real58
Gee here we've managed to trash Charismatics and Catholics in one thread! Not all charismatics are into these kind of things and I've absolutely had it with the Catholic bashing on these threads.
I looked at the posts above this one and couldn't find anyone trashing Catholics. I wonder if perhaps Catholics are the only ones who use holy water? I don't believe so, but what I wrote was certainly NOT trashing Catholics.
And as far as charismatics are concerned, I am sure not all charismatics believe this kind of junk, and I am sure they wouldn't want anyone to lump them all together in that belief.
Bottom line: No one here has trashed Catholics, and no one here has trashed all charismatics. However, the ridiculous practices of some have definitely been called into question.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/22/2008 8:13:58 AM
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earthless
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Exactly, I don't see where this person thinks all of this Catholic bashing is occurring. They probably couldn't even find more than one example of that in the last 500 posts in this sub-forum.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/22/2008 9:47:19 AM
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1love1God1way
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To quote wintery from another page (hope you don't mind buddy, but I thought it was incredibly insightful and I kept it!):
"Wanting (what someone says is)"all that God has for you" is no longer a walk by faith but a pursuit of what you think you're missing out on. At that point it's tough to say something is not of God because you can't stop "believing" until you get your piece of the pie."
God simply has become our divine vending machine.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/22/2008 10:25:29 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
"Wanting (what someone says is)"all that God has for you" is no longer a walk by faith but a pursuit of what you think you're missing out on. At that point it's tough to say something is not of God because you can't stop "believing" until you get your piece of the pie."
Your Wintery quote is something I want to think about for a while. It is profoundly interesting in relation to the old church where I was a member.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/22/2008 11:23:03 AM
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earthless
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People more interested in what is on the Master's table than in the Master Himself.
People whose view of God is that of a cosmic bellhop.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/22/2008 12:04:52 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
People more interested in what is on the Master's table than in the Master Himself.
People whose view of God is that of a cosmic bellhop.
After all...it is all about "Your Best Life NOW"
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/22/2008 12:45:46 PM
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Lapidoth
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From: OKLAHOMA
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"Our" best is compared to rags you pick up with a stick
and throw in the trash. You wouldn't even want to touch it.
These movements are like that, the world wouldn't want to
touch it with a ten-foot pole.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/22/2008 12:49:00 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Lourdes Water
$140.99
water
quote:
Day of Miracles
hanky
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/22/2008 2:12:06 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
But then again... once we receive that better thing, are we supposed to give it up??
Interesting thought.........Abraham being asked to offer up Issac? Kind of like that........
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/22/2008 7:24:35 PM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 1130
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OldSchoolBeliever
It reminds me of how the people arose to play before the Golden Calf as Moses was on Mt Sinai. God is a Holy God and a God of order. I do believe in people running the aisles and being consumed by the power of the Holy Ghost. But the key is that it must be God ministering to the person and not the person being in the flesh so to speak. God can really help a person through a true Holy Ghost blessing but these charasmatics as a whole do not understand that concept.
It makes me wonder how angry God must feel when people take his House of Worship lightly.
Wow, that's a perspective I had never thought about before. And you can also take from that example that some people get tired of waiting on God and fashion a man-made, man centered substitute. But be careful; here comes Moses with some tablets and a ticked off look on his face....
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/22/2008 7:51:06 PM
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OldSchoolBeliever
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/21/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: OldSchoolBeliever
It reminds me of how the people arose to play before the Golden Calf as Moses was on Mt Sinai. God is a Holy God and a God of order. I do believe in people running the aisles and being consumed by the power of the Holy Ghost. But the key is that it must be God ministering to the person and not the person being in the flesh so to speak. God can really help a person through a true Holy Ghost blessing but these charasmatics as a whole do not understand that concept.
It makes me wonder how angry God must feel when people take his House of Worship lightly.
Wow, that's a perspective I had never thought about before. And you can also take from that example that some people get tired of waiting on God and fashion a man-made, man centered substitute. But be careful; here comes Moses with some tablets and a ticked off look on his face....
Good post. Also, let me say that there are great people who firmly love the Lord in the Charasmatic circles but the movement as a whole has parts that are very deceiving and deceptive and at many times contrary to the scriptures.
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RE: Lack of Reverence for God in Church? - 9/22/2008 7:58:47 PM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 1130
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OldSchoolBeliever
quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: OldSchoolBeliever
It reminds me of how the people arose to play before the Golden Calf as Moses was on Mt Sinai. God is a Holy God and a God of order. I do believe in people running the aisles and being consumed by the power of the Holy Ghost. But the key is that it must be God ministering to the person and not the person being in the flesh so to speak. God can really help a person through a true Holy Ghost blessing but these charasmatics as a whole do not understand that concept.
It makes me wonder how angry God must feel when people take his House of Worship lightly.
Wow, that's a perspective I had never thought about before. And you can also take from that example that some people get tired of waiting on God and fashion a man-made, man centered substitute. But be careful; here comes Moses with some tablets and a ticked off look on his face....
Good post. Also, let me say that there are great people who firmly love the Lord in the Charasmatic circles but the movement as a whole has parts that are very deceiving and deceptive and at many times contrary to the scriptures.
Yes. I firmly believe that most of them genuinely love the Lord, but there's something to be said for mass hysteria.
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