Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between women not mentioned?
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Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between wom... - 9/11/2008 10:42:43 AM
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Fledgling
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In Leviticus 18, why is homosexuality between men denounced but nothing is mentioned about two women having a sexual relationship?
Thanks for your help on this.
Leviticus 18:22." 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/11/2008 10:45:26 AM
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dianetavegia
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Ro 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
It's mentioned in the new testament.
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/11/2008 11:00:52 AM
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Fledgling
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Thanks Dianne, I read understand Romans 1:26..
However I am still confused. In Leviticus God is giving to Moses very complete and complicated rules for his people and so I wonder why is it not mentioined there?
Is it because no women were doing such things or even thinking about such things?
If women were the first unclean beings, then why would they not have these rules given for them?
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/11/2008 11:13:42 AM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fledgling
In Leviticus 18, why is homosexuality between men denounced but nothing is mentioned about two women having a sexual relationship?
Thanks for your help on this.
Leviticus 18:22." 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Well it doesn't mention it because it should be obvious that if it is wrong for a man it is wrong for a woman.
Leviticus 18:23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
This verse only mentions woman. That however doesn't mean a man can do so.
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Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/11/2008 11:31:31 AM
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Fledgling
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Thanks Richad,
Maybe I am just splitting hairs here it makes sence that whats good for one gender is good for the other.
quote:
Leviticus 18:23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
But sometimes rules are different for men and women. Hmmm just wondering why the words were not.. "A person" and "themself".. instead of "woman" and "herself" but again maybe I am just splitting hairs. It does say "do not have sexual relationships with animals".. so that command does address both women and men.
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/11/2008 12:21:34 PM
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Fledgling
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Hi Richad,
I don’t have any intentions of that; I actually don't like the practice of lesbianism myself due to my own personal experience in what lesbianism can do to the family.
Two of my sisters are lesbians and they are not interested in being aunts or associating with my family (two sons especially) in the traditional ways... and to me this is harmful to the family structure which is harmful to the societal structure... We are suffering a great loss in the loss of 4 potential relationships. (2 Aunt’s to 2 nephews). My sons don’t get the whole Lesbian thing so they just think the family doesn’t give a flip about them.
And also in order to not believe their daughters are going to hell, my parents have modified their beliefs about God and the bible… so there is more damage done. My parents say things like look at Key West, how it was a run down place then all the homosexual people came in and fixed it up nice like it is today etc. etc. I guess when you don’t have children to raise; you have time and money to do other things.
Of course maybe they would be the same if they were not lesbians... but somehow I don’t think so... especially if they had had children of their own. The process of bringing forth a child to life makes you understand even more fully how precious children are and life is.
I have also heard off the cuff remarks made to the effect that men with men is disgusting but women with women is somehow ok.. Maybe that idea comes from the same place in the bible.
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/11/2008 12:39:40 PM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fledgling
Hi Richad,
I don’t have any intentions of that; I actually don't like the practice of lesbianism myself due to my own personal experience in what lesbianism can do to the family.
Two of my sisters are lesbians and they are not interested in being aunts or associating with my family (two sons especially) in the traditional ways... and to me this is harmful to the family structure which is harmful to the societal structure... We are suffering a great loss in the loss of 4 potential relationships. (2 Aunt’s to 2 nephews). My sons don’t get the whole Lesbian thing so they just think the family doesn’t give a flip about them.
And also in order to not believe their daughters are going to hell, my parents have modified their beliefs about God and the bible… so there is more damage done. My parents say things like look at Key West, how it was a run down place then all the homosexual people came in and fixed it up nice like it is today etc. etc. I guess when you don’t have children to raise; you have time and money to do other things.
Of course maybe they would be the same if they were not lesbians... but somehow I don’t think so... especially if they had had children of their own. The process of bringing forth a child to life makes you understand even more fully how precious children are and life is.
I have also heard off the cuff remarks made to the effect that men with men is disgusting but women with women is somehow ok.. Maybe that idea comes from the same place in the bible.
Oh. I wasn't implying that that is what you are attempting to do. All I meant is that is that they do.
I'm sorry to hear you are going through this in your family. Are your sister's claiming to be Christian? If so they are living in denial. If they are not Christian aka born again, then if isn't them being lesbians that will cause them to end up in hell, but the mere fact of not being born again. As far as your parents that is just sad they would do such a thing. I'm not sure how much they are reading scripture but the bible clearly states that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. It works with any sin really. If one is claiming to be a Christian and murdering people there fruit is showing they are not what they claim. Same with the lesbian thing. If they are claiming to be Christian and living as lesbians, the way a married couple would, then they are mistaken. To go back to your parents. They are allowing how they feel to overrule truth. They need to get inline with God. No parent wants to know a child or children won't be with God if they continue on such a path. However modifying ones beliefs to adjust to the world is never a good idea.
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In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/11/2008 1:03:13 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fledgling
Thanks Dianne, I read understand Romans 1:26..
However I am still confused. In Leviticus God is giving to Moses very complete and complicated rules for his people and so I wonder why is it not mentioined there?
This is a common mistake made by people who do not study Torah on a regular systematic basis. Adonai did not give Moshe "very complete and complicated rules". Adonai gave us general rules and some detailed examples. Many see the detailed examples and decide to gloss over Ha Torah rather than take the time to examine, discuss and evaluate them.
Many things are not directly mentioned in certain parts of the Scriptures for many reasons. Among those reasons are it is included in general guidance or a similar example, it is already common practice, Adonai wishes us to search our consciences. etc. In the case of lesbianism, Paul seems to be telling us that it is so outragious that it shouldn't need to be mentioned. After all the first command to the woman after the fall is "Your desire will be for your husband . . ."
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/11/2008 1:14:58 PM
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LBolt
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Husband...not one's lesbian/same sex lover.
If men with men is wrong...and woman was made for man (I'm speaking marriage and relationally here) simple deduction tells us that woman with woman is outright wrong.
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/13/2008 11:28:51 PM
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dyluck
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I think in context in Leviticus and compared to the verse in Romans - it says "and even women"
Would lead me to believe, there may have not been lesbianism problems at that time.
Just my 2 cents :)
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/15/2008 3:37:08 PM
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DaveW
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I would go with the reason of progressive revelation.
It is often thought that the Mosaic covenant was too numerous and complex to handle and the New Covenant streamlined it, slimmed it down and made it more managable. Not so.
The Law of Moses had 613 distinct commands, the New Covenant has over 1000.
If something was glaringly obvious by its omission, there was a reason. Such is the situation with female to female sexuality. Since it is not mentioned in the OT, there is no specific biblical reason given for its omission. Paul does forbid it in Romans. What changed? (since he does not say in that passage anything listed here is only a guess)
Many things changed. (and this is one reason the church needs to really understand the Jewish religious literature from the 2nd temple period) The Ketubah (marriage contract) and later the Mishnah spell out how many times a husband was to satisfy his wife sexually. (in specific numbers depending on his vocation) This was based on several passages in the OT that speak of a man's obligation that way. Nothing was said about a wife satisfying her husband that way (again Paul addresses this in 1 cor 7) so the sexual satisfaction of the wife was something specifically upheald in scripture, it was something God was concerned about.
Another thing that changed is that polygny (multiple wives) had all but vanished from Jewish and Greek society. Not so in the earlier centuries.
Take the wives/concubines of Solomon. There were about 1000 of them. Crunching the numbers, if he were man enough to satisfy 3 per night, it would take a year for him to make the rounds. As being independantly wealthy, he should have (according to Jewish tradition) satisfied them daily.
It is therefore POSSIBLE that God, who had already written into the bible his concern for their drives, gave those in the harems another means of getting what their husbands could not give on a regular basis.
I realize this sounds abhorant to us in this day and age. But as they were under a different covenant with different stipulations, it is not outside the realm of possibility.
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/15/2008 10:30:58 PM
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Theophile2
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In a previous post to this thread, Solomon's wives were brought into this discussion so please allow me to digress from the OP for a moment:
Solomon disobeyed two commands:
Deuteronomy 7:3-4 You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons, (4) for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods. Then the anger of the LORD would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly.
Speaking of the rules that Kings must follow: De 17:17 Nor shall he multiply wives to himself, so that his heart does not turn away.
Back to the point at hand:
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
If men with men is wrong...and woman was made for man (I'm speaking marriage and relationally here) simple deduction tells us that woman with woman is outright wrong.
Good point. This form of deduction was often used by the Rabbis to derive application of scripture to given circumstances. The Apostle Paul did the same.
This is also a good segue to looking at how God never changes his mind about things. Let's look at Jesus' comment about marriage:
Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. (7) For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife. (8) And the two of them shall be one flesh. So then they are no longer two, but one flesh. (9) Therefore what God has joined together, let not man put apart.
Jesus was referring to:
Gen 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh.
Since God never changes His standards, what is the logical conclusion from God establishing "from the beginning" that marriage is between one man and one woman, to include all of the admonitions in the rest of the Bible against sex outside of marriage?
The only logical conclusion is that sex in any form with anyone outside of marriage is wrong. And since marriage is between a man and a woman, both lesbianism and homosexuality - implicit or explicit - goes against God's design for sex within a marriage covenant.
What is the Christian response to this behavior? The same as any sin: Be kind to them, befriend them, and thereby show them the love of Christ. Teach them the Biblical Gospel message, and allow the Holy Spirit in their conversion to Faith in Christ deal with their sin issues ... allowing that sanctification is a process and some may turn from their sin immediately, and some may need more nurturing and conviction from the Holy Spirit to motivate their change of heart.
Blessings ....
< Message edited by Theophile2 -- 9/15/2008 10:58:37 PM >
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"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason ... my conscience is captive to the Word of God." - Martin Luther, Diet of Worms, April 2, 1521.
*** Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria ***
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/15/2008 10:38:08 PM
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Theophile2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fledgling
Two of my sisters are lesbians and they are not interested in being aunts or associating with my family (two sons especially) in the traditional ways... and to me this is harmful to the family structure which is harmful to the societal structure... We are suffering a great loss in the loss of 4 potential relationships. (2 Aunt’s to 2 nephews). My sons don’t get the whole Lesbian thing so they just think the family doesn’t give a flip about them.
And also in order to not believe their daughters are going to hell, my parents have modified their beliefs about God and the bible… so there is more damage done. My parents say things like look at Key West, how it was a run down place then all the homosexual people came in and fixed it up nice like it is today etc. etc. I guess when you don’t have children to raise; you have time and money to do other things.
Fledgling - would you like us to pray for your sisters and your parents? Do you want to post something in the Prayers forum for folks to send their prayers to?
Lord Jesus, we thank you for blessing Fledgling with your saving Faith, and we praise you Lord, for you are the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace.
Lord Jesus, send your Holy Spirit to Fledgling's sisters, and give them eyes to see, ears to hear, and hearts to receive the Gospel message, and return her parents to a Biblical understanding of your Gospel message.
We ask these petitions based on the promises of your Holy Word, that they be done in the power of your Holy Spirit, in your good will and timing, and to the Glory of your Kingdom. In Jesus name ... amen.
_____________________________
"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason ... my conscience is captive to the Word of God." - Martin Luther, Diet of Worms, April 2, 1521.
*** Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria ***
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/15/2008 10:52:52 PM
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Fledgling
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quote:
Lord Jesus, we thank you for blessing Fledgling with your saving Faith, and we praise you Lord, for you are the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace.
Lord Jesus, send your Holy Spirit to Fledgling's sisters, and give them eyes to see, ears to hear, and hearts to receive the Gospel message, and return her parents to a Biblical understanding of your Gospel message.
We ask these petitions based on the promises of your Holy Word, that they be done in the power of your Holy Spirit, in your good will and timing, and to the Glory of your Kingdom. In Jesus name ... amen
Thank you so much Theophile2,
Your prayer is very beautiful. I pray my sisters will hear, see, and learn with their hearts and that my parents will also come to God.
I will post a version of your prayers to the prayers forum if it is ok.
Thank you and God Bless you :-)
Fledgling
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/17/2008 1:31:02 PM
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dyluck
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quote:
allowing that sanctification is a process and some may turn from their sin immediately, and some may need more nurturing and conviction from the Holy Spirit to motivate their change of heart.
Your message is great Theophile2. I just wanted to touch on this part here.
I believe the supernatual regeneration of a new child of Christ would cause Immediate convition of sin and once was pleasurable in sin is now detestible and no longer pleasureable at all... Even if subbornly the truly converted christian continues in that sin for a short time, the conviction of the sin should be far more overwelming then they could bare. This would be a good sign of a true converstion!
Like in Romans 6:13 "13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." the key here is that in the first part of Romans 6 describes that you ARE alive in christ and that this verse 13 its not just an assumption but a reality in your newness in Christ.
What do you think?
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/19/2008 7:06:26 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
But sometimes rules are different for men and women. Hmmm just wondering why the words were not.. "A person" and "themself".. instead of "woman" and "herself" but again maybe I am just splitting hairs. It does say "do not have sexual relationships with animals".. so that command does address both women and men.
The reason that Leviticus doesn't use "a person" is because "a person" is a neuter form and there is no neuter in Hebrew. In Hebrew the masculine form can be and often is inclusive of the feminine i.e. serves as a neuter, but the feminine form is always exclusive of the masculine.
Some examples; in the OT all of the references to the "children of Israel" really read "sons of Israel" but are treated as an inclusive (neuter) form because the context demands it. Also every instance of "it" in the OT is really "he" or "she" because everything in Hebrew has a gender; example: In English we would say "where is the candlestick? It is over there?" but in Hebrew it would be "Where is the candlestick? she is over there." Often in Hebrew when it talks about "a man", and inclusive meaning should be considered. However, whenever it speaks of "the man" it will always be with the intention of referring to a man. Up until only a few decades ago, English was commonly understood in an almost identical fashion i.e. English speaking people used to have no problem understanding that the mailman might be a woman.
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/24/2008 11:20:05 AM
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dduuggyy
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Fledgling,
GOD bless you for your steadfastness and we need more Christians like you to stand for the WOG. Homesexuality and Lesbianism...is ruining out society but we must stand strong against such lifestyles. Unfortunately for your parents, their thinking is becoming a trend...many are accepting this as a life style,of course we know even with the least of common sense that two men can't pro create and two women can't either. This lifestyle is from decisions made on personal and selfish ideas as it mentions in James about being driven away from their own lust and nothing of GOD. These lifestyles are sad but there is hope and opportunity, so we have to have hope and hope for the best but the Bible speaks about things of this nature has to come to pass. One postive element that I get when this subject is discussed is that it provides validation that the Bible is the truth of life for it speaks about men and women leaving the natural use and working on what is unnatural. To you, stay strong, keeping praying, be furvent and persistent and love your sisters and your parents and be an example to them as to what a Christian should be. GOD Blessings to you....
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/26/2008 12:23:36 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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Hi - I dont know if any of you know this, but some lesbians call their partner their "husband" or thier "wife".. if they read those verses about a woman having a husband, they will say "yeah i have a husband, im following the Bible.
now what do we say to the people who do this?
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/26/2008 12:30:44 PM
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DaveW
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Those people are intentionally deluding others and perhaps themselves to justify their sins.
All you can do is pray for their eyes to be opened.
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Leviticus 18 - Why are sexual relationships between... - 9/26/2008 3:38:32 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Hi - I dont know if any of you know this, but some lesbians call their partner their "husband" or thier "wife".. if they read those verses about a woman having a husband, they will say "yeah i have a husband, im following the Bible.
now what do we say to the people who do this?
This one of the draw backs of the "spirit of the Law" arguement. If we are not testing the spirits with the whole council of Adonai, there is a real opportunity for error.
The best argument is to point to other Scriptures where "husband" clearly refers to a man and "wife" clearly refers to a woman.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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