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Lying to the Spirit - 10/13/2008 1:12:38 PM
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sledmt
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I was reading in Acts 5 where Acts 5:1 Ananias and his wife agreeded to lie to the Spirit and dropped death because of it.
I was wondering what other feel about this verse?
Why don't we see that same thing happening in churchs today?
What are your thoughts?
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/13/2008 1:37:29 PM
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humbleinspirit
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The early church was very tight and full of the Holy Spirit. There was no division among them, nor compromise. The church today, but especially in the U.S. regularly compromises on things and thus is weak. The irony as a result is that there is more grace or less power now.
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/13/2008 2:00:22 PM
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LCannon
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With affluence and advantage comes also, usually, a weakening resolve to ever be closer to His consuming and the community of faith. The early church had to cling to and on the other parts of the body and the apostles teaching for sustenance and their very survival. When A/S tried to snow their assembly two factors(at least)were at play. The first was their obvious greed to be thought higher then they were. The second was other people(at least the seller)surely knew(the purchase price)and probably he(the seller)was out of their assembly(since he was able purchase the land)and would had no compulsion to divulge their(A/S's)duplicity. Comparing eras and situations are often difficult to compare however that's doesn't absolve us of our responsibility.
With more opportunity comes more responsibility. We notice, afterward, the 'congregation' had a little more 'distance' of the apostles.
< Message edited by LCannon -- 10/14/2008 2:41:14 PM >
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"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/14/2008 2:14:37 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
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LCannon, I'm unsure of what you are trying to explain. Could you give us a little more detail.
Thanks
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/15/2008 8:18:11 PM
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OleFitzHi
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Maybe it does happen when it suits God's purposes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I was reading in Acts 5 where Acts 5:1 Ananias and his wife agreeded to lie to the Spirit and dropped death because of it.
I was wondering what other feel about this verse?
Why don't we see that same thing happening in churchs today?
What are your thoughts?
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/30/2008 1:31:41 PM
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DaveW
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I wonder what the newspapers and tv news crews would do with that kind of situation.
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/30/2008 2:31:48 PM
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Chapmon
Posts: 109
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I was reading in Acts 5 where Acts 5:1 Ananias and his wife agreeded to lie to the Spirit and dropped death because of it.
I was wondering what other feel about this verse?
Why don't we see that same thing happening in churchs today?
What are your thoughts?
The Church was in the foundation building stage of its history at this time and there was no room for error. Today, we build on the perfect foundation and Christ periodically judges the structure work with fire (heresy and persecution) to burn off the wood, hay, and stubble. Lying to the Holy Spirit is just as heinous today as it was back then, but the dispensation of the church was very different from now.
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/31/2008 3:00:35 AM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
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quote:
I wonder what the newspapers and tv news crews would do with that kind of situation.
Also, how would the justice system address the deaths?
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/31/2008 3:03:11 AM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chapmon
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I was reading in Acts 5 where Acts 5:1 Ananias and his wife agreeded to lie to the Spirit and dropped death because of it.
I was wondering what other feel about this verse?
Why don't we see that same thing happening in churchs today?
What are your thoughts?
The Church was in the foundation building stage of its history at this time and there was no room for error. Today, we build on the perfect foundation and Christ periodically judges the structure work with fire (heresy and persecution) to burn off the wood, hay, and stubble. Lying to the Holy Spirit is just as heinous today as it was back then, but the dispensation of the church was very different from now.
Just wondering what you are refering to??? Dispensation of church. What has changed???
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/31/2008 11:32:35 AM
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Chapmon
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Since the time of the apostles, the Old Covenant has come to a complete close, the Church's foundation has been built, and the Church is not marching victoriously through history taking ground and building its wall and bulwarks. The Holy Spirit was more evident in the first century because he was speaking through the prophets and apostles and bringing about the complete revelation of scripture, the fullness of God's revelation of grace in Christ Jesus. The Bible was completed on the testimony of the Apostles as eye witnesses to the events of grace. We now operate through the work of the scriptures instructed to us by the Holy spirit and not by evidential manifestations. The church has past from its roots, to its establishment, to its foundation, and finally to its structure and spread over the globe.
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/31/2008 2:18:13 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chapmon
We now operate through the work of the scriptures instructed to us by the Holy spirit and not by evidential manifestations. I find this a very dangerous doctrinal stance. It means that if ANYTHING supernatural happens it automatically gets assigned to the devil.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/31/2008 2:31:59 PM
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Chapmon
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DaveW
quote:
I find this a very dangerous doctrinal stance. It means that if ANYTHING supernatural happens it automatically gets assigned to the devil.
Not necessarily. There is no need to over emphasize the point. Supernatural things happen all the time. But supernatural occurrences are not efficacious. God goes to the depths of man to build faith, not to the senses. Luke 16:31; John 20:29
Supernatural is for the immature and the primitive. God may well do wonders on savage mission fields, but he expects his maturing disciples to ween from the milk and draw their faith from the word. Ever notice the curve in the Older Testament? How the huge signs and wonders like the parting of the Red Sea curve off until, by the time you get to Ezra and Nehemiah, no obvious miracles take place? The miracles are not meant to create faith. They are meant as signs of the presence of divine action, a spring board for later maturity and growth.
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 10/31/2008 3:51:06 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
Supernatural is for the immature and the primitive. God may well do wonders on savage mission fields, but he expects his maturing disciples to ween from the milk and draw their faith from the word. Some may misconstrue your statement here. Other societies may not be as technologically advanced as ours but display strong points in other aspects. Look at the Ethiopian Jews.
We are living today in a godless, perverse, wicked generation who does not believe there is no God and wonders why He doesn't move supernaturally today. Witchcraft workers and those in the occult are manifesting more demonstrative power in there circles than alot of churches. The error is not in God...but in us who fail to pay the price to allow signs and wonders to move. Yahshua didn't just give doctrine and preaching alone to prove who was ...he demonstrated! His miracles were an expression of His love and an attestation to the reality of who He is. We have alot of unbelievers and 'primitive, savages' morally in America...in our pews! We need God to display His glory in this fashion today. People do not fear Yah!
You argue that the supernatural is for the immature. The God you say you serve is supernatural at His very essence! He manifested the supernatural not just because He needed to prove His diety but because He loved people. I've been walking with the Master for a number of years and I still rely on His supernatural hand!
The milk is the word of God. The meat is doing or living out the word of God or "doing the will of the Father". The ability to discern right and wrong.
Don't dismiss the fact that Anainas and Sapphira's death by the Spirit of Yah was just 'then and not now'...
That was the 'dispensation of the church'...dispensationalism is man's attempt to explain why we today do not obey Torah. That's another thread... 
It was obvious that their actions were disrespectful but the truth is, the early assembly had the 'real deal'...We must recover what was lost. They were a community as others have stated. They had divisions and issues but God definitely moved powerfully.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 11/3/2008 12:29:06 AM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chapmon
Since the time of the apostles, the Old Covenant has come to a complete close, the Church's foundation has been built, and the Church is not marching victoriously through history taking ground and building its wall and bulwarks. The Holy Spirit was more evident in the first century because he was speaking through the prophets and apostles and bringing about the complete revelation of scripture, the fullness of God's revelation of grace in Christ Jesus. The Bible was completed on the testimony of the Apostles as eye witnesses to the events of grace. We now operate through the work of the scriptures instructed to us by the Holy spirit and not by evidential manifestations. The church has past from its roots, to its establishment, to its foundation, and finally to its structure and spread over the globe.
Interesting doctrine.
Right away I see things about this idea that concern me. I see what you are trying to say, but I would like to know this, This statement lead me to believe that Christ is not the same in the past, present and future. Christ is somehow different for us today. How has he changed?
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 11/3/2008 12:32:10 AM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chapmon
DaveW
quote:
I find this a very dangerous doctrinal stance. It means that if ANYTHING supernatural happens it automatically gets assigned to the devil.
Not necessarily. There is no need to over emphasize the point. Supernatural things happen all the time. But supernatural occurrences are not efficacious. God goes to the depths of man to build faith, not to the senses. Luke 16:31; John 20:29
Supernatural is for the immature and the primitive. God may well do wonders on savage mission fields, but he expects his maturing disciples to ween from the milk and draw their faith from the word. Ever notice the curve in the Older Testament? How the huge signs and wonders like the parting of the Red Sea curve off until, by the time you get to Ezra and Nehemiah, no obvious miracles take place? The miracles are not meant to create faith. They are meant as signs of the presence of divine action, a spring board for later maturity and growth.
So, when Christ would cast a demon out of a man, Christ did this only to show who he was? Christ really didn't want the want to walk in freedom? The same can be said about healing. Just the primitive man need a physical healing from God???
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 11/3/2008 12:35:04 AM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
Supernatural is for the immature and the primitive. God may well do wonders on savage mission fields, but he expects his maturing disciples to ween from the milk and draw their faith from the word. Some may misconstrue your statement here. Other societies may not be as technologically advanced as ours but display strong points in other aspects. Look at the Ethiopian Jews.
We are living today in a godless, perverse, wicked generation who does not believe there is no God and wonders why He doesn't move supernaturally today. Witchcraft workers and those in the occult are manifesting more demonstrative power in there circles than alot of churches. The error is not in God...but in us who fail to pay the price to allow signs and wonders to move. Yahshua didn't just give doctrine and preaching alone to prove who was ...he demonstrated! His miracles were an expression of His love and an attestation to the reality of who He is. We have alot of unbelievers and 'primitive, savages' morally in America...in our pews! We need God to display His glory in this fashion today. People do not fear Yah!
You argue that the supernatural is for the immature. The God you say you serve is supernatural at His very essence! He manifested the supernatural not just because He needed to prove His diety but because He loved people. I've been walking with the Master for a number of years and I still rely on His supernatural hand!
The milk is the word of God. The meat is doing or living out the word of God or "doing the will of the Father". The ability to discern right and wrong.
Don't dismiss the fact that Anainas and Sapphira's death by the Spirit of Yah was just 'then and not now'...
That was the 'dispensation of the church'...dispensationalism is man's attempt to explain why we today do not obey Torah. That's another thread...
It was obvious that their actions were disrespectful but the truth is, the early assembly had the 'real deal'...We must recover what was lost. They were a community as others have stated. They had divisions and issues but God definitely moved powerfully.
Good post.
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 11/4/2008 2:51:49 PM
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Chapmon
Posts: 109
Joined: 10/21/2008
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quote:
Interesting doctrine.
Right away I see things about this idea that concern me. I see what you are trying to say, but I would like to know this, This statement lead me to believe that Christ is not the same in the past, present and future. Christ is somehow different for us today. How has he changed?
Why must it follow that because God proceeds with his plan through various stages of development (for our benefit) that he has ontologically changed? Look at the obvious, we do not worship in the same manner that the people of the Old Covenant did because Christ reinstituted worship to account for his work of redemption. Does that necessitate a change in him or a change in dispensation?
quote:
So, when Christ would cast a demon out of a man, Christ did this only to show who he was? Christ really didn't want the want to walk in freedom? The same can be said about healing. Just the primitive man need a physical healing from God???
Why not both? But where are these mass and total healings being held today?
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RE: Lying to the Spirit - 11/5/2008 12:35:23 AM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
Why not both? But where are these mass and total healings being held today?
Maybe is the Lord is calling you and me to be the one to start a new healing movement.
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