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McCain & Iraq - 11/2/2008 7:35:46 PM
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RichLP
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John McCain has repeatedly stated that his foreign policy expertise is a strong component of his ticket for the presidency.
But McCain has committed a number of gaffes, one of them being his statement that Pakistan borders Iraq, and another being his reversal of the timing of the US troop escalation (surge) with the Anbar Awakening.
Still, many here support McCain because he, unlike Barack Obama, promise and pledges to conduct the United States to victory in Iraq. Some here bash Obama as "defeatist."
That being the case, can anyone here please tell me exactly what is John McCain's policy towards Iraq, and how he will go about to achieve victory?
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/2/2008 8:01:29 PM
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Acts29
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For starters he will not tell the "enemy" his plans. Unlike Obama who plans to tell them the dates of withdrawal.
Biggest vote for McCain is the military. They trust him and respect him. They are the ones whose lives are at risk and they choose McCain. I think this is a big endorsement. We can sit here and look at the situation from our little world. But the guy who actually goes to Iraq or Afghanistan says he trusts McCain says plenty.
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/2/2008 8:04:07 PM
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Acts29
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*** hint ***
In order for your question to appear unbiased please add a couple of Obama's gaffes as well. As many times as either man has spoken on the campaign trail there are plenty of "goofs" .
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/3/2008 6:17:36 AM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Acts29
For starters he will not tell the "enemy" his plans. Unlike Obama who plans to tell them the dates of withdrawal.
Biggest vote for McCain is the military. They trust him and respect him. They are the ones whose lives are at risk and they choose McCain. I think this is a big endorsement. We can sit here and look at the situation from our little world. But the guy who actually goes to Iraq or Afghanistan says he trusts McCain says plenty.
Who is the "enemy" that you mention in regards of telling one's plans to?
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/3/2008 7:27:54 AM
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rlj
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quote:
Unlike Obama who plans to tell them the dates of withdrawal.
There can only possibly be 3 withdrawal dates- 2 are written in stone so to speak. The first will be December 31st (I believe) 2008 when the UN mandate expires. We will be out of Iraq in January or at least won't be fighting a war or else we'll be literally occupying the sovereign nation of Iraq at that point.
The next date is the date in 2011 when the US/Iraqi treaty states that we are to leave. While we wanted this to be conditional, when al-Maliki took the terms of the treaty to the Iraqi parliment it was rejected because they want no "floating date" they want a date set in stone.(Plus they would rather us leave than members of the Erik Prinz Eugen Polizei division continue to be allowed to murder Iraqis with impunity but that isn't for this thread) Don't blame Obama for this blame the Iraqi government for wanting to tell the word the last and final date. They want us out as bad as those of us who dislike that war want us out. That is reality.
The third date and this is the mystery date would be for the UN to extend the mandate. With Putin still holding a good chunk of power in Russia I am sure that Russia will take into considerations Dubya's expansion of NATO, the missile shield and any and every other real and perceived slight he and Russia may have suffered at the hands of the administration when their ambassador wields the veto pen. I am sure if we grovel, beg, whine and plead long and hard enough Russia won't veto an expansion of the mandate. I highlighted "perceived slight" because I have a feeling they are going to annoy us greatly on this.
For those following Iraq will be over with in 2011 at the absolute latest. It is moot now whether Obama or McCain win the election. 2011 will put us there for over 8 years. Not bad for an operation whose mission was accomplished in May of 2003.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/3/2008 8:25:08 AM
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letusreason
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
Not bad for an operation whose mission was accomplished in May of 2003.
So far this is the goofiest thing I've read today.
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/3/2008 8:48:49 AM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
Unlike Obama who plans to tell them the dates of withdrawal.
There can only possibly be 3 withdrawal dates- 2 are written in stone so to speak. The first will be December 31st (I believe) 2008 when the UN mandate expires. We will be out of Iraq in January or at least won't be fighting a war or else we'll be literally occupying the sovereign nation of Iraq at that point.
The next date is the date in 2011 when the US/Iraqi treaty states that we are to leave. While we wanted this to be conditional, when al-Maliki took the terms of the treaty to the Iraqi parliment it was rejected because they want no "floating date" they want a date set in stone.(Plus they would rather us leave than members of the Erik Prinz Eugen Polizei division continue to be allowed to murder Iraqis with impunity but that isn't for this thread) Don't blame Obama for this blame the Iraqi government for wanting to tell the word the last and final date. They want us out as bad as those of us who dislike that war want us out. That is reality.
The third date and this is the mystery date would be for the UN to extend the mandate. With Putin still holding a good chunk of power in Russia I am sure that Russia will take into considerations Dubya's expansion of NATO, the missile shield and any and every other real and perceived slight he and Russia may have suffered at the hands of the administration when their ambassador wields the veto pen. I am sure if we grovel, beg, whine and plead long and hard enough Russia won't veto an expansion of the mandate. I highlighted "perceived slight" because I have a feeling they are going to annoy us greatly on this.
For those following Iraq will be over with in 2011 at the absolute latest. It is moot now whether Obama or McCain win the election. 2011 will put us there for over 8 years. Not bad for an operation whose mission was accomplished in May of 2003.
Thank you RLJ - you as always have a grasp of the facts, which is more than can be said about John McCain re: Iraq.
The Iraqi government itself wants us out. If we don't get a Status of Forces Agreement by Jan 1 2009 to replace the UN mandate, our presence in Iraq becomes illegal and open becomes the door for war crimes accusations against our soldiers (not that a few misbehaving US troops have never done anything resembling war crimes).
I am concerned that the next president, whether Obama or McCain, will have to deal with this the moment they are sworn in. There will be 19 days between Jan 1 and the inauguration, and that's plenty of time for things to get worse if our troops no longer have a UN mandate or a SoFA. So they retreat to their bases without either - and what happens then?
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/3/2008 1:41:24 PM
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rlj
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quote:
So far this is the goofiest thing I've read today.
I thought it was one of the goofiest things I've read since May of 2003 myself. ; )
quote:
I am concerned that the next president, whether Obama or McCain, will have to deal with this the moment they are sworn in. There will be 19 days between Jan 1 and the inauguration, and that's plenty of time for things to get worse if our troops no longer have a UN mandate or a SoFA. So they retreat to their bases without either - and what happens then?
I would like to think that the Iraqi government and people would be reasonable to the fact that we will have to pull back into our bases as opposed to having us prosecuted or worse breaking out into some kind of countrywide rebellion against us. As for the next president the SoFA is being put on hold by us until after the election. The Iraqis believe it is on hold until after the election so the President elect can be briefed on it.
quote:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The Iraqi government expects Washington to delay responding to proposed changes in a draft security agreement between the countries until after the presidential election, an aide to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said Sunday.
Iraqi soldiers and police inspect a car following a bomb explosion in Hawija, near Kirkuk, Iraq, on Sunday.
"Probably Washington wants to inform the new president-elect about the details of the pact," said Yassin Majid.
U.S. and Iraqi negotiators recently agreed to the draft status-of-forces deal that would set the terms for U.S. troops in Iraq after the U.N. mandate on their presence expires at the end of this year.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/11/02/iraq.security/index.html
I'm not at all worried about getting out of Iraq. You can't keep them in diapers and feed them formula forever they are ready to get out on their own now.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/3/2008 2:22:32 PM
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tafkam
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McCain will also have the common sense to listen to his commanders on the ground, whereas Obama just seems bent on pulling them out regardless. Remember, this is the man who insisted on voting to cut funding for our troops, despite warnings from future running mate Joe Biden that such a move would cost lives....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/3/2008 4:44:05 PM
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rlj
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quote:
McCain will also have the common sense to listen to his commanders on the ground, whereas Obama just seems bent on pulling them out regardless. Remember, this is the man who insisted on voting to cut funding for our troops, despite warnings from future running mate Joe Biden that such a move would cost lives....
The question though is pretty much moot at this point. It's a matter of 2 months, 3 years or some random number from an extension of the UN mandate. If the agreement with the Iraqis is signed and ratified our troop counts will gradually come down anyway. I can't see us parking our troops - all 140,000 or whatever the number will be on a few bases doing nothing for a year or two. From the time it is enacted the US troops will only be continuing their current mission for a year or so then there will be restrictions on where they can go and what they can do.
Honestly though Tafkam I believe that Afghanistan and Iraq both would have been better off had McCain won in 2000 but it's too late for that now. As for Obama and McCain they are probably the two men I respect the most for their views on Iraq because they both stayed consistent with what they believed from the beginning. Obama didn't vote for it and change his mind and McCain didn't run from it.
Just to add the agreement that is being looked at now means we are gone in 3 years. That should be enough to appease those that want to "stay the course" because it is the Iraqis saying that the course is over in 3 years. For those that want us out it is only 3 more years and I can't see us maintaining our full commitment that long with the restrictions on where we can deploy and what we can do.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 9:57:12 AM
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letusreason
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
So far this is the goofiest thing I've read today.
I thought it was one of the goofiest things I've read since May of 2003 myself. ; )
Just because CNN tells you what to think doesn't mean you have to.
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 9:59:49 AM
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letusreason
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
I'm not at all worried about getting out of Iraq. You can't keep them in diapers and feed them formula forever they are ready to get out on their own now.
It's funny how you think the overall point is how to mature a fledgling democracy instead of the implications of it dying.
but it's expected from someone who sips CNN's anti-bush koolaid.
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 10:07:39 AM
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Jhud
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
That being the case, can anyone here please tell me exactly what is John McCain's policy towards Iraq, and how he will go about to achieve victory?
Well John McCain details what he sees as important considerations on Iraq here.
I think we already have victory in Iraq, it's just a matter of what it will take to sustain it.
Personally, I hope we always have bases in Iraq, much as we do Germany, South Korea, and Japa to this day.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 10:18:28 AM
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letusreason
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That being the case, can anyone here please tell me exactly what is John McCain's policy towards Iraq, and how he will go about to achieve victory?
Well John McCain details what he sees as important considerations on Iraq here.
I think we already have victory in Iraq, it's just a matter of what it will take to sustain it.
Personally, I hope we always have bases in Iraq, much as we do Germany, South Korea, and Japa to this day.
Compare that with Obama's powder puff diplomacy only strategy.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/iraq/
"Barack Obama and Joe Biden will launch an aggressive diplomatic effort to.."
agressive diplomacy, surging dimplomacy,,,,what ever!
"This compact will aim to secure Iraq’s borders; keep neighboring countries from meddling inside Iraq; isolate al Qaeda; "
"meddling", makes them sound like neighborhood kids pulling pranks! More proof that his talk is cheap and nonsensical, though eloquent!
McCain on the other hand, is quite more descriptive and articulate:
"Syria has refused to crack down on Iraqi insurgents and foreign terrorists operating within its territory. Iran has been providing the most extreme and violent Shia militias with training, weapons, and technology that kill American and Iraqi troops."
More Obama eloquent fog talk:
"Obama and Biden believe any Status of Forces Agreement, or any strategic framework agreement, should be negotiated in the context of a broader commitment by the U.S. to begin withdrawing its troops and forswearing permanent bases. "
The contrast between the two cannot be clearer.
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 12:25:28 PM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Personally, I hope we always have bases in Iraq, much as we do Germany, South Korea, and Japa to this day.
You think that would go over well there?
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 12:33:09 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
You think that would go over well there?
Well, it would peeve Osama to no end, but I personally think that is a good thing.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 12:40:00 PM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
You think that would go over well there?
Well, it would peeve Osama to no end, but I personally think that is a good thing.
Provoking anti-U.S. sentiment is a good thing?
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 12:50:15 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Provoking anti-U.S. sentiment is a good thing?
I don't think amongst Osama's ilk it is possible to provoke pro-US sentiment.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 1:03:09 PM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Provoking anti-U.S. sentiment is a good thing?
I don't think amongst Osama's ilk it is possible to provoke pro-US sentiment.
Oh, is it just Bin Ladin's ilk that our presence concerns?
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 2:49:02 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Oh, is it just Bin Ladin's ilk that our presence concerns?
No, Democrats are concerned as well.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 3:36:14 PM
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rlj
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quote:
Just because CNN tells you what to think doesn't mean you have to.
Dubya was the one that stood in front of that big banner with the sign that said "Mission Accomplished". Now there has been much controversy over that. Some said it simply meant Saddam was gone but many would say that the first 3 or so years of the insurgency they were hardly "free and liberated". The administration said about a year or so ago that the mission accomplished banner and such was because the USS Abe Lincoln had finished a mission. Being someone who has always wanted to be in the navy (but physically cannot) I think it is absolutely silly that the President would make such a big fuss and the navy would break out that banner just because of a mission being finished. Sorry but it has nothing to do with Cool-Aid and CNN but it is straight from the horses mouth.
quote:
It's funny how you think the overall point is how to mature a fledgling democracy instead of the implications of it dying.
but it's expected from someone who sips CNN's anti-bush koolaid.
Then what is the point? Either we treat Iraq as a sovereign nation or we treat them as a territory. Either we put in an effective government or we did not. Either we want them to be a democracy or we do not want them to be a democracy. The democratically elected leaders of Iraq have said they will accept NO agreement that doesn't do two things- 1)Put a time frame on exactly when we are to leave and 2)Allow Iraqi courts to try soldiers and contractors who commit crimes on Iraqi territory. Number two could have been appeased a year ago had we shown some simple respect to the al-Maliki government and chosen not to renew the Blackwater Contract. We chose not to respect the wishes of our new ally.
Strangely I respect the opinion of the democratically elected leaders of Iraq to lead their country the way they seem best. Since from the 2004 State of the Union Address (since it wasn't mentioned in 2003) the purpose in Iraq has been to turn it into a freedom loving democracy. They want to be free and they want to do it without our troops there. Why can't you respect that?
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: McCain & Iraq - 11/4/2008 3:46:00 PM
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rlj
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quote:
I think we already have victory in Iraq, it's just a matter of what it will take to sustain it.
Personally, I hope we always have bases in Iraq, much as we do Germany, South Korea, and Japa to this day.
I agree with you completely on this. I want to add I think our pulling out as the Iraqis have expressed they want us to do will cause 2 things- 1)AQ and the foreigners will trickle down and that will end since they won't have all of the easy shots at the great satan any longer and 2)There may still be another Sunni/Shia explosion. Bases aren't that big of a deal and generally they are leased. Spread enough $$$ around and we'll get them.
At this point the only way to know if Iraq can stand on its own is to let go. As long as we're there though they will have to fight foreign insurgents.
I think McCain's strategy is well thought out but I believe that the situation has passed it. I believe that Obama's is simple perhaps too simplistic even. The road Iraq is on and the road they want to be on is somewhere in between.
Once again Jack I believe with you that we honestly won in Iraq. It'll never be a western style panacea of freedoms and peace but they are definitely about there for a middle eastern country in that region - I'm thinking along the lines like Jordan, Lebanon and even Israel.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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