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Netzarim - 10/1/2008 12:00:00 PM
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DaveW
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In a post closed for law discussion violations, andersbranderud asked to discuss the historic Jesus. Looking at his website, for nazarine judiasm, I have to ask him/her the following questions:
If your group is supposedly accepted by the Orthodox Jewish community, how do you get around the fact that they believe that Yeshua was a false teacher and NOT the messiah? In order to be accepted by them you must deny HIM.
How do you do that?
Do you accept the letters of Rav Shaul (Paul) as scripture?
Do you accept the letters of Shimon Peter as scripture?
Do you accept the gospels as scripture?
Do you accept the agreement of Acts 15 as scripture?
Do you believe that gentiles can be included in the New Covenant?
I do not want this thread to go to the issue of whether it is required or proper to follow the law, as there is a one stop thread for that discussion. I want this one to remain on beliefs of Nazarene Judiasm.
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Netzarim - 10/2/2008 12:14:42 AM
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Theo-Minor
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It is the modern Jewish institution that recognizes Jesus as a false teacher. The authorities of his time, according to the gospel accounts, were silenced by his arguments, and many followed him and his teachings (which were, in fact, very similar to the oral teachings of Hillel, speaking comparitively from the Talmud). His enemies had no genuine charge to bring against him. Thus, the charges given to Pontius Pilate were vague and undefined at the outset.
The slanders that arose came later. Most were to discredit any Messianic claims. Denying Christ became important to Jewish identity over the centuries due to the clear separation and dividing line that came into being through Passion plays, Inquisitions, and other significant persecutions.
Christians of the first few centuries were so determined to separate themselves from Judaism, in fact, that we ended up celebrating Easter Sunday rather than Passover, which was the tradition of earliest Christianity, and one early Bishop even went so far as to excommunicate the entire Eastern church for refusing to cooperate.
As for the rest of the questions, Paul's letters should absolutely be regarded. My personal opinion is that anyone who rejects Paul's writings doesn't understand their Bible, new or old testament. His teachings are incredibly deep, very in line with the law and the prophets, and are the teachings of Jesus to the letter. Likewise, it can also be said that Paul didn't change anything, as some allege. He merely elaborated on the mysteries and the harder to understand principles of true, fulfilled Judaism. You can find virtually all of Paul's teachings scattered throughout the old testament if you read enough.
I think the complication mostly derives from a modern misunderstanding of the law as it actually existed versus the law as it had become through a 'letter of the law' perspective, wherein such mundane things as whether or not an area had to be repeatedly checked for leaven once it was already inspected (after all, a weasel might have dragged a piece of leaven to a place already checked when you weren't looking). To be a practicing Jew, there was more than the written law. There were specific prayers at specific times, libations taken with certain meals, particular foods that could or could not be eaten depending on certain circumstances.
Furthermore, when Paul goes on his tangents about not being under the law (which includes the ten commandments themselves according to him), it should be likewise recognized that he still praises the law, teaches the principles of the law, and instructs us to keep law according to the spirit of its intent; which is precisely what both Jesus and Hillel taught ... that the law was to love your neighbor as yourself, and that the rest was a mere commentary on that principle. In which case, Paul demonstrates an affinity for the teachings of the Hillel school of thought, as did Jesus, and continues those selfsame teachings.
Contrary to being some sort of separatist espousing a whole new religion, Paul was a Pharisee of the Hillel school of thought who recognized the coming of the Messiah, its implications, and the impact Christ's death and resurrection had on the traditional Jewish institution respective to the testament of the testator after in lieu of before.
The final question ... Psalm 2:8. The heathen were given to the son as an inheritance.
The sole purpose of this post was to participate in the discussion on the historical Jesus and Paul, and current Jewish attitudes towards Christ and Christianity, not to provoke any discussions on whether or not the law needs to be kept. What I said on that matter was incidental and relevant to the post respective to the questions.
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Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Netzarim - 10/2/2008 9:43:00 AM
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DaveW
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I was specifically asking those questions of andersbranderud as this person linked to the Netzarim web site.
Actually the first century judaic leadership seemed to be divided as to Yeshua/Jesus and his followers. We see the Saduccees opposed to him, as they were toward any messianic claimers historically. THe Pharasees opposed Him and helped Him at various times (one group warning HIM of a threat from Herod), probably different groups. Gameliel refused to treat the disciples harshly but his pupil Saul tried to destroy them. Tradition has it that James the Just was thrown down from the pinnacle of the Temple in 69 ad by pharasaic leaders for refusing to deny the messiahship of his brother.
History tells us that following the siege of Jerusalem in 70 when the temple was razed (the messianics fled to the hills as instructed in Matt 24) there was a rift between the newly created Rabbinic Judiasm (reformed to deal with the loss of the temple) and the messianic believers. THis was starting to be healed when the bar Kochba revolt happened in 135. Kochba was declared messiah and the messianics would not fight for a false messiah. Rome won and scattered the Jews, and put harsh persecution of them. The believers, seeking to avoid the persecution, distanced themselves from Judiasm.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Netzarim - 10/2/2008 11:54:30 AM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
Warning on Paul's writings
LINK
I found this link as we were beginning a study of the Pauline epistles.
I found it humorous for lack of a better word for a claim that even Peter
warned us about Paul.
This is a SNO website. I wonder what Paul would have to say to them. lol.
quote:
Paul's letters should absolutely be regarded. My personal opinion is that anyone who rejects Paul's writings doesn't understand their Bible, new or old testament.
This is my view also regarding Paul's writings.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Netzarim - 10/2/2008 11:57:51 AM
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Lapidoth
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I love the study of Biblical World History.
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Netzarim - 10/2/2008 12:02:10 PM
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Lapidoth
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http://www.netzarim.co.il/
Is this the site?
Added:
now that I look at that site, it seems to be a bit
biased. Didn't want to say screwy.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 10/2/2008 12:09:40 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Netzarim - 10/2/2008 12:53:56 PM
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DaveW
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Yeah that is the site - one of several.
And I don't think screwy is too harsh a term.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Netzarim - 10/2/2008 1:47:55 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Yeah that is the site - one of several.
And I don't think screwy is too harsh a term.
ROFL................Well, then,
I could think of some really harsh terms, but I'd get bleeped. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Netzarim - 10/2/2008 4:54:14 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
Paul's letters should absolutely be regarded. My personal opinion is that anyone who rejects Paul's writings doesn't understand their Bible, new or old testament.
By the same token, anyone who insists that Paul's writings are the fundation of the Scriptures do not understand them either.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Netzarim - 10/4/2008 7:14:14 PM
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DaveW
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No - it is clear that Torah (the books of Moses) are the foundation for the rest of the Tenach and all of the New Covenant writings as well.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Netzarim - 10/6/2008 12:43:48 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
No - it is clear that Torah (the books of Moses) are the foundation for the rest of the Tenach and all of the New Covenant writings as well.
My sentiment also.
And it takes both to get the whole picture.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Netzarim - 10/9/2008 6:00:45 AM
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andersbranderud
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DaveW,
The earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius further documented (EH III.xxvii.4-6) that the original Netzarim accepted only the Jewish Tana"kh as Bible and only The Netzarim ("their own") Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) as an authentic account of the life and teachings of Ribi Yәhoshua, never accepting the 2nd-4th century, heavily gentile-redacted (Greek), NT.
Ribi Yehoshua said:
"Don't think that I came to uproot the Torah or the Neviim [prophets], but rather I came to reconcile them with the Oral Law of emet (truth). Should the heavens and ha-aretz (the land, particularly referring to Israel) exchange places, still, not even one ' (yod) nor one ` (qeren) of the Oral Law of Mosheh shall so much as exchange places; until it shall become that it is all being fully ratified and performed non-selectively. For whoever deletes one Oral Law from the Torah, or shall teach others such, by those in the Realm of the heavens he shall be called "deleted." Both he who preserves and he who teaches them shall be called Ribi in the Realm of the heavens. For I tell you that unless your Tzedaqah (righteousness) is over and above that of the Sophrim (Torah Scribes), and of the [probably 'Herodian'] Rabbinic-Perushim (corrupted to "Pharisees"), there is no way you will enter into the Realm of the heavens! “
Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu 5:17-20.
and
“Take heed against false Neviim [Prophets] who come to you in wool like sheep, but inside they are wolves who extort. You shall recognize them by their works. Do men pick grapes from a stinging-nettle? Or figs from a thistle? So, every green tree is unable to produce evil fruit, and a dried-up tree is unable to produce good fruit."”
Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a taught that one can only learn how to keep Tor•âh′ by learning to keep Tor•âh′ as the Pәrush•im′ [Pharisees] teach:
"Then [Rib′ i] Yәho•shu′ a spoke to the Qәhil•ot′ and to his tal•mid•im′ saying, ''The So•phәr•im′ and those of the Rabbinic-Pәrush•im′ [who advocate that Ha•lâkh•âh′ must be exclusively oral] sit upon the bench [i.e., the Beit-Din [religious court] of Mosh•ëh′ . So now, keep sho•meir′ and do concerning everything—as much as they shall tell you! Just don't imitate their Ma•as•ëh′ because they say but they don't do." (The Nәtzârim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityâhu (NHM) (23.1-3).
Ribi Yehoshua warned for false prophets who don’t produce good fruit = defined as don’t practise the commandments in Torah. See Devarim (Deuteronomy) 13:1-6.
Now you are confronted with the very words of historical Ribi Yehoshua. You can’t rebel and reject the very words he claims to follow. If you don’t follow Ribi Yehoshuas Torah-teachings, than you don’t follow Ribi Yehoshua.
So why not start following Ribi Yehoshua? To follow him implies practising the commandments in Torah.
From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (www.netzarim.co.il) who are followers of Ribi Yehoshua – the Messiah – in Orthodox Judaism
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RE: Netzarim - 10/16/2008 2:27:24 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4163
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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I take it then you reject the council of Acts 15?
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Netzarim - 10/17/2008 9:46:05 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4163
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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A question:
I am interested in getting the SANJ New Testament from the Aramaic manuscripts. It was my understanding that the Netzarim were producing and distributing it. Is it done yet?
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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