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Praise Team Situation - 7/31/2008 8:42:32 AM
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redeemedsaint
Posts: 517
Joined: 12/5/2005
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I would like to share a situation that had recently happened and would like some wisdom concerning this and what to do. Here is the situation:
Recently, due to some financial hardship, I had to go full tilt into looking for a full time job and get a part time job as well. I had ministry obligations on Monday and Thursday nights, one being on the Praise Team and having practices that night. About a month ago, I had lunch with my leader and told him that I would no longer be at practices on Thursday nights, but I would still be there on Sunday for practice before service started. This is usually the norm, if some people couldn't be there, they would still practice before service started on Sunday. He was fine with this. Two days later while I was printing up the music for Sunday, I noticed that my name was removed from the schedule after July 6th. I thought about letting it go, but decided to go after it because there had been a misunderstanding. I emailed him and let him no that was not what I said. He told me that he would meet with me on Sunday and we would discuss it. He came to me Sunday and told me that he had lunch with a couple and would contact me about it during the week. I never heard from him. My mentor called me and wanted to set up an appointment with me and he rarely calls me. I suspected that something was up so I went in. He asked me how some of the practices were and there were a couple of situations that I described that happened. One being that I was called out not once but twice because I held my note for too long. The first time, I had let it go, the second time, it really bothered me and I was embarassed, not only in front of my team, but in front of a guest. I had to walk out of the room because I was about to lose it. I got it together and came back. The second time I spoke out on a situation that someone had asked the leader about and of course I opened my big mouth and spoke out. The leader said I think he was talking to me and I kept on talking. I didn't think about it after that until the leader called me 2 hours later and told me that he didn't appreciate me speaking on his behalf and I told him that I wasn't and I was speaking for myself. Then he went on throughout the conservation telling me I am the leader about 3 times and I had to bite my tongue because I felt that was talking down to me. I did apologize and the situation was resolved and I thought that was the end of that. Well, it wasn't. Apparently someone from my team was uncomfortable with what I said (I know who it was) after the leader asked this person how they felt about the team chemistry. He in turn went to the elders and they made the decision for me to be removed from the team indefinaltey. I was shocked by this and broke down crying. My mentor kept asking me if I was okay. I asked why could this person not approach me and talk to me? I was told they didn't know me and it doesn't matter who it was, that I have no rights etc. I told him that this situation was taken care of, but it didn't matter. They went by what one person said who had been on my vocal team for 3 - 4 months over someone who has been on this team for 3 and a half years. I did write an email back a day later telling them that if someone has a problem with me they should have come to me. This I don't know the person doesn't wash and the Bible does not say that. I wrote an email a day or two later stating this among other things and I was raked over the coals. I wish I could share that email what I sent and what I received, but I deleted it because it was quite harsh. I had a breakdown and had another visit with my mentor. He had to do damage control and I in turn wrote an apology to the leader. What hurts the most through all of this is that they made a decision based on past experience with my leader. We had butted heads in the past and nothing had happened from October 2006 to until this situation. Also, I am ex-gay and had come out of the lifestyle and have been out for 3 years and he was uncomfortable with that. I was told that I was loved in spite of my past, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. My past was used against me, I have problems with authority etc and I have changed from 3 years ago to now. I wasn't given an opportunity to say anything because I didn't know they had a meeting and a decision was made without a word from me. Also, I found out that 2 of the elders were not there and I asked about this and was told that we don't include them in some of our decisions. To me that is a major red flag. I made a decision to leave the church and was going to meet with my mentor to discuss. When I told him this, he went off on me and said then why are we here? I told him that I wanted to give you a chance etc and he went off on me. He told me that I hurt him and that I didn't respect him enough to talk with him about it before I made my decision. That hurt me more than anything. I love him like a big brother and I told him through my tears, don't say that. After all that, I decided to stay. It was implied that if I do leave, he would not mentor me anymore. He also told me that I need to come to him if I do decide to leave the church we need to get together and discuss it. I do want to make it clear that I would not be leaving due to being off the Praise Team, I would leave because of the way this was handled. I was judged and tried and found guilty before proved innocent. People will say what they want regardless of what you do. He also asked if I had shared my leaving with anyone and I told him no. I actually did, but I wasn't going to tell him. He also told me that it was up to the leader to ask back to the team and he said don't have any expectations, so honestly I don't expect the leader to ask me back. He found a way to get me off the team and got an out because I made one person uncomfortable. You know the word indefinalty means you don't go back. What would you do in this situation? Please advise with wisdom. Thanks. I realize that I'm not perfect and I have accepted responsibility for my actions in this situation.
_____________________________
Woody
Get off the track cause the freight train is coming - Coach Bobby Lee Duke from Facing the Giants
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 7/31/2008 11:31:52 AM
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allisonbrett
Posts: 196
Joined: 5/29/2008
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Woody,
I'm so sorry that you are having such stuggles. Please don't let these conflicts hurt your relationship with the Lord. I can understand wanting to leave the church and find a new home but it may appear to others that you are leaving because you were either mad or uncooperative. Just a thought.
My thoughts are that you might should have let the praise team thing go until you could rehearse with them as required. Some may have looked at you as having special priviledges by not attending on Thursday and only brief time before Sunday. I completely understand about the job thing and having to work more. Sometimes life does get in the way of serving in a manner we so enjoy. It also sounds as if you and the Praise Team leader conflict in personality. This leader should have spoken to you openly and honestly privately and not taken the issue to anyone else. I agree that if someone else has an issue with you then they should have enough courage to talk to you. Don't assume the leader has an issue with your ex-gay lifestyle unless he alludes to it or refers to it in anyway. He may or may not have issues with it but either way that's his problems. From what you've written it does sound like a control issue with the leader. Some do relish being in control and in charge and use it to dominate situations. It also could be that your personality and his clash. Maybe a lot of misunderstandings and a lack of real communication. I'd say just agree to disagree and walk away from the praise team. If you cannot be apart of it without conflict then serve in other areas. Remember, it's about the Lord and not about this person or that. Maybe the leader needs to be reminded of that. Who are we serving and why are we here?
I'm confused about the mentor. Is this a church sponsored or some official duty or someone who cares and wants to help? To refuse to mentor you if you leave the church and get angry if you even consider it sounds like he is acting in an official manner and not out of love or compassion. I don't get this. Can you clarify?
In the end, Woody pray for these people you are having conflicts with. Even though you feel wronged its still important to pray for them and ask the Lord for discernment in it all. I can understand your desire to leave this church and find another church home but before you do make sure the Lord is leading you to go someone else other than leaving over hurt feelings.
Blessings my friend!!!
_____________________________
Allison's World My Blog
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/1/2008 8:10:44 AM
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redeemedsaint
Posts: 517
Joined: 12/5/2005
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Allison,
Thanks for the response and I will clarify some of the questions that you may have. You are correct that the leader and myself have butted heads in the past. As for my mentor, he does care for me and love me, but when he went off on me that I had already made my decision, why are you here which implied to me that if I did leave, he would not mentor me. My perception may be wrong on that. As for the practices on Thursday nights, some people do work or have other obligations and are unable to be there, but still able to practice before the service on Sunday. As for being off the team indefinately, that usually means that I won't be back. And you are right, people need to learn to talk to others first if they have a problem with them before they go to other people. It causes more problems than what it is worth based on my case. I don' t plan to leave the church, but I do plan to talk with the individual involved to find out what went down and I plan to do it in a nice way, if at all possible. If I was asked back on the team, I would probably say no based on this situation. I'm okay with the decision but what has bothered me was the way it all went down. Thanks for the words of wisdom. It helped a lot.
_____________________________
Woody
Get off the track cause the freight train is coming - Coach Bobby Lee Duke from Facing the Giants
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/1/2008 11:16:21 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
Joined: 4/12/2005
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The mentor issue sounds like an authoritative situation. Is the mentor part of the church? Is the mentor assigned to you by someone, or did you choose this person on your own and ask them to be your mentor? Why do you have a mentor? Why do you have to tell him if you are leaving the church?
The way the praise team issue was handled does show lots of red flags to me. The church doesn't have a Biblical system for handling conflict, from what you posted. They made a decision without all the elders there, and they made a decision in an authoritative manner instead of referring the person in conflict to Matthew 18:15-17 and using it as a teaching moment in the Scriptures.
It sounds quite political, frankly.
If I were you, I would spend a great deal of time in private Bible study and prayer, asking the Lord to guide me. I would ask the Lord to help me know if this is the leadership I should be submitting to, or if there is leadership elsewhere I should be submitting to. Some things I would ask myself:
1. Does this leadership handle things in a Biblical way?
2. Do they point people to the Scriptures?
3. Do they handle all things with prayer?
4. Do they foster maturity between the brethren?
5. Do they recognize Christ as Lord, and themselves as under-shepherds?
6. Can I still be persuaded in the truth by this leadership?
7. What does the Lord want me to learn from this situation?
Let the Lord be your mentor, and let Scripture teach you. Listen to what your church people have to say, and weigh it against the Word of God. If it doesn't line up, Scripture trumps man.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/1/2008 11:54:27 AM
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mrsrevbob
Posts: 185
Joined: 7/31/2008
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quote:
I would consider counseling from a counselor outside of this church, and possibly attending church elsewhere for at least a while.
I have been in church all of my 40 plus years, and have seen the "praise team" thing to be very political, and in many cases unfair as to how people are chosen.
And if you can break your posts here into paragraphs, it will be much easier for us to read and understand.
Bob is right, bluestone, you are extremely wise. I totally agree with your post. Although it is good to try and weather these things, sometimes the more political Ministry team becomes a hostile beast in and of itself. Sure sounds like there may be a proverbial snake in that spiritual garden.
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/1/2008 9:16:50 PM
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evryknee
Posts: 285
Joined: 3/9/2008
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I'd also add to the above that even these difficult circumstances are ordained by God. He allowed this to happen and He may be doing something more in your life than just allowing a conflict to occur. I agree it is necessary to meet with this person (possibly with another present as well), but since it all has been planned out ahead by God, I'd spend some time meditating and trusting in Him for the outcome. Prov. 3:5-6
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/2/2008 9:49:47 AM
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redeemedsaint
Posts: 517
Joined: 12/5/2005
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Thank you all for the words of wisdom. From some of my close friends who I have talked to, all of them said that they should have come to me first instead of going to the elders, but it is what it is. I even mentioned that it's in scripture, but that didn't matter.
The mentor I had chosen on my own because I had at that time come out of the gay lifestyle and he wanted to help me. That was 3 years ago. I was off the team for about 3 months and came back after his recommendation.
As for telling him (my mentor) if I do decide to leave. If that time comes and I am led, I will leave quietly. I'm a 47 year old man and I don't need permission to leave. I also don't want to cause decension.
I am planning to attend another church across the street from me for about a month and just receive healing during that time. God is teaching me a lot through this and my identity lies in him as a Child of God, not a member of the Praise Team. I talked to the pastor there a couple of times and he's a nice guy. They have an outreach here at my apartment complex where they have rented out an apartment and have a Bible Study and a Wednesday breakfast social.
Some of you are right that the Praise Team is a political thing and I wish they would go back to the old days with just piano and organ and do away with the Praise Team concept all together. There would be a lot less problems. I can guarantee one thing, if that happens, half of the people who are on the team will no longer be in church. Some unfortunately are just there to play and that is it.
I can honestly say that this has affected me, stress wise and things don't seem to be the same anymore. Pray for me as I seek God's direction and thanks once again for the words of wisdom. I will keep you posted.
_____________________________
Woody
Get off the track cause the freight train is coming - Coach Bobby Lee Duke from Facing the Giants
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/2/2008 4:08:05 PM
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slushie
Posts: 2016
Joined: 4/30/2006
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Yes, do keep us posted.
That's really rough about the praise team. The praise team at my church can be a little political at times but I've never seen what you've described.
Did the mentor actually say that he would not mentor you if you left the church?
_____________________________
Testify to Love
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/8/2008 9:52:45 AM
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Angie_K
Posts: 50
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: ~MISSOURI ~
Status: offline
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My dear Brother I simply want to encourage you and pray that God give you strength through this very difficult time.
My husband and I went through the same thing ~ we were also accused, tried, convicted and punished for something that we didn't do, or at least to our knowledge we didn't do. It all happened behind our backs.
We weren't even aware that there was a problem until we were called into the associate pastors office, after Wed night prayer, and removed from ALL of our ministry duties. (My husband being a deacon and both of us being leaders of a ministry team, as well as serving in many other areas of the church ~ basically ~ the church was our whole lives).
No one could, or would, give us sound reason into the matter. The associate pastor couldn't even tell us who had a problem with us or what the problem was - we wanted more than anything to fix whatever it was that we had done - but to no avail. Nothing was done except our removal from service. We were devastated, to say the least.
The pastor wouldn't even meet with us and two months later, we finally got to meet with the pastors wife, the associate pastor, and a few other deacons. But all in all ~ it was still inconsistent. Not one of them could even explain why we were removed from all of our ministry duties, they couldn't tell us what happened or who we hurt or what we did and they certainly couldn't explain why their actions were not based on biblical principles. It was as if no one knew much of anything. But even after the meeting ~ we were not restored.
After six months of humiliation we left the church. And yes, we were humiliated ~ it was a rather large church, but we were well known by all since we served so much, and of course they wanted to know what happened. We couldn't tell them or even guess.
We asked the associate pastor what we were to tell the people ~ he told us to tell them that "we were just sitting out for a while". Which was a nice lie but it was common knowledge that if you were removed from a team and made to sit out, then you've really must have done something wrong - which we didn't or didn't believe that we did- so we were embarrassed by the whole thing.
I'm not telling you to leave your church. I read that you might attend another church for a while. That would probably be good thing. Maybe that will help get everything into perspective.
This is the best and hardest advice that I can possibly give you ~ pray for each one of them. I know. I know. I didn't want to hear that either. I wanted an explanation. I wanted to be restored. I wanted my life back. My church back. My family back. But none of that ever came. So, I was left with nothing but questions and distress.
But I did pray for them. At first it was nothing but a short "God help them" because that was all I could muster and still be true in my heart about it. But a little at a time ~ it all got better and my heart began to heal.
Looking back I can honestly say that the only thing that got me through was my faith in Jesus Christ. I don't want to sound "religious" or "high and mighty" at a time like this ~ but my faith, at the time, was all I had left.
Even all of our friends abandoned us. It was a lonely time. But there is light at the end of the tunnel. Jesus was betrayed by His friends, tried, convicted and punished for something he didn't do also. That's what kept me going. That even if everyone else abandoned me ~ He knew what I was going through and more than understood my feelings.
I'm rambling ~ I'm sorry.
I know that your heart hurts and I pray that God encourage you and strengthen your faith in Him. Hold your head up high. You have a Great and Mighty God who is also your biggest cheerleader!!! And remember "Mercy Triumphs over judgment".
Be Well,
Angie
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/9/2008 4:52:50 AM
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DSmitty
Posts: 52
Joined: 7/2/2008
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You know Woody, I'll be brutally honest with you... when I first started reading your post my impression was that you had a problem with relating to people. But then as I read on I started thinking that you may be sitting under an abusive situation. At the very least, assuming everything that you say is true then your situation was definitely handled in an unbiblical manner.
I personally do not agree with acting on anonymous accusations. The Bible says that whatsoever makes manifest is light... in other words, out in the open. If I go to a pastor with something about someone I would expect the pastor to encourage me to take the Biblical approach of confronting them personally first, not taking my word for it, acting on it and allowing me to remain anonymous. That's the wrong way to handle it and clearly falls short of the criteria laid out in Matthew 18.
As others have said, the Biblical response for you is to pray for them and forgive them. As far as leaving, I always like to leave a place on good terms, if it's feasible. However, if you are in an abusive situation then you have to get out fast. I don't know for sure in your situation because I haven't been to your church. But I do get the same impressions from your post that others have mentioned - political... control... overly authoritative, etc.
I'm glad that you have hooked up with this other group. It sounds like it might be a healthier atmosphere.
God bless you, brother!
-David
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/9/2008 12:49:22 PM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 153
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
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Thank you, Woody, for your post. At first I was very disturbed about the issue, but through the subsequent postings I can see the Lord is working with you, and already begining the healing process. I will be praying for you, and for the church, that God's light will shine on them and bring light to the darkened areas that need to be seen.
I'm a pk and have seen much in my life in church experiences. The most important thing I have learned is that God never fails us. People do, but God never does!
And, Angie, your post really saddened me, but I know that the Lord is faithful and will restore you to the fullest extent that He can. Peace to you and your husband!! Blessings are forthcoming!
Oftimes people find themselves in control, with a little bit of 'power,' and ungracious things begin to happen. People are placed into positions they have no reason to be in, and human nature takes over; sadly. Many times the church, the place which is supposed to be a safe-haven for the battle-weary Christians who have come in for a respite against the worlds battles find worldy battles brewing and stirring where they are not supposed to be~~inside their place of refuge, their place of encouragement.
I trust that the Lord will lead you, Woody, in the direction that He has for you. Keep your eyes on Him, not on any church. I will state this again because I feel it is very important~~People (the church) will fail you, but the Lord never will! He only wants joy, and peace, and blessing in your life, and a closer relationship with you that will take you through this life and on into an eternal one.
Peace to you, my friend!!
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/10/2008 9:21:01 AM
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DSmitty
Posts: 52
Joined: 7/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Thank you, Woody, for your post. At first I was very disturbed about the issue, but through the subsequent postings I can see the Lord is working with you, and already begining the healing process. I will be praying for you, and for the church, that God's light will shine on them and bring light to the darkened areas that need to be seen.
I'm a pk and have seen much in my life in church experiences. The most important thing I have learned is that God never fails us. People do, but God never does!
And, Angie, your post really saddened me, but I know that the Lord is faithful and will restore you to the fullest extent that He can. Peace to you and your husband!! Blessings are forthcoming!
Oftimes people find themselves in control, with a little bit of 'power,' and ungracious things begin to happen. People are placed into positions they have no reason to be in, and human nature takes over; sadly. Many times the church, the place which is supposed to be a safe-haven for the battle-weary Christians who have come in for a respite against the worlds battles find worldy battles brewing and stirring where they are not supposed to be~~inside their place of refuge, their place of encouragement.
I trust that the Lord will lead you, Woody, in the direction that He has for you. Keep your eyes on Him, not on any church. I will state this again because I feel it is very important~~People (the church) will fail you, but the Lord never will! He only wants joy, and peace, and blessing in your life, and a closer relationship with you that will take you through this life and on into an eternal one.
Peace to you, my friend!!
matthew
Amen, Matthew. Wow... those were words dripping with grace! I like that.
_____________________________
Men are God's methods. And while men are looking for better methods, God is looking for better men. -AW Tozer
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/11/2008 11:00:21 AM
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redeemedsaint
Posts: 517
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
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Thanks to all for the kind words, wisdom, prayers, etc. Angie, I am sorry that you went through all of that and I remember you posted that some time back. God is faithful and will continue to be.
I started to go to the church across the street and they are doing a series on Jonah "Returning to God." That is timely. In a way, I am running from the situation, but at the same time, I don't have to think about it.
God is working on my heart to get rid of the self stuff and I need to let this go. It was a part of my life for over 3 years and that is hard. I would not wish this on anybody. Letting go is hard as well as painful.
Who knows, maybe God is using this to say I have something else for you or I want you somewhere else. Not too sure about that, but I'll keep seeking him on this.
Will I go back to the Praise Team? Not sure at this time. I may even buy a guitar and just pour out my heart and sing to God. When I do get to heaven, God will not ask me if I was on a Praise Team, he'll ask did you sing praises to me?
I agree with one poster that some people should not be on there and there are some people on my team who should not be on there, but that is not for me to judge. God reveals that in time. I think we get to caught up in being in a band that we forget who we are doing this for.
Thanks for all the imput. I will continue to keep you posted.
_____________________________
Woody
Get off the track cause the freight train is coming - Coach Bobby Lee Duke from Facing the Giants
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 8/15/2008 10:05:26 AM
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Angie_K
Posts: 50
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: ~MISSOURI ~
Status: offline
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Thank you all for your encouraging words.
I posted to encourage Woody and you've encouraged me! You're all so kind.
Yes Woody, I posted that some time ago. All that happened about 3 years ago. We still haven't "hooked up" with a church ~ I suppose it's the "once bitten twice shy theory" ~ but we are very content at this point.
And Matthew, you are SO right...
quote:
I trust that the Lord will lead you, Woody, in the direction that He has for you. Keep your eyes on Him, not on any church. I will state this again because I feel it is very important~~People (the church) will fail you, but the Lord never will! He only wants joy, and peace, and blessing in your life, and a closer relationship with you that will take you through this life and on into an eternal one.
Through that horrible ordeal we've been brought to the feet of Christ where we've been learning how to have a relationship with Him and not just "work" for Him. And it has brought us much peace.
_____________________________
MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 9/1/2008 4:59:23 PM
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redeemedsaint
Posts: 517
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
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Just to keep you posted, I did talk to my mentor about Matthew 18 and he said that it didn't apply here. Basically, after that, I just let it drop. I guess we can let people hide behind leadership and they can say whatever they want and get by with it and not be questioned or be held accountable. Someday, someone is going to go too far with an accusation whether it is true or not and it will really hurt someone and by that time it will be too late.
I also received a phone call Friday and people from my team have been asking where I am etc and from the best of my knowledge, my leader has not addressed this. It has been 2 months and the longer it is not addressed, the more questions will be asked. I did send him an email to let him know the situation and when someone has stepped down he addresses it with "They are taking a break etc." I have not gotten a response and don't really expect one. It is like I have never been on the team and I don't exist.
When I went on the planning center, I got the message that I am no longer scheduled for any further services. I believe that I'm getting the sign. Here's your sign. Maybe God is telling me it is time to move on, you need to leave.
I have not been at my church since Aug 10th and really, I have no desire to go back. I work until 2 am and get to bed around 3. I go to the church across the street since they start at 10:30. I'm just going to leave quietly and if I get a phone call, I will tell the truth. I will not lie saying I'm taking a break. I need to be careful in how to approach that. I have been going to the church across the street and I like it there. When meet and greet time came an older lady turned to me and said that I have a beautiful voice and that I should be in the choir. I thanked her and thinking honey been there, done that. Don't need to worry about singing right now. I need to heal and get my heart right and God is working.
God has bigger and better things in store for me. I'm excited to see what they are.
_____________________________
Woody
Get off the track cause the freight train is coming - Coach Bobby Lee Duke from Facing the Giants
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RE: Praise Team Situation - 9/1/2008 9:03:23 PM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 153
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
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Thank you, Redeemedsaint, for the update. I believe you have made, and are currently making the right desicions about this issue. God is healing your life; sit back, and enjoy the Holy Spirits presence and healing power!
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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