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Two Raptures - 9/24/2008 2:22:00 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3543
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Final Thoughts on Two Raptures
Matthew, the first book of the New Testament, describes two different methods of Jesus coming for his followers. One is sudden and unexpected; the other is witnessed by the entire world, and commonly referred to by Christians as the Second Coming of Christ.
Thief in the Night - Matthew 24:39 - "So this is the way the coming of the Son of Man will be: Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and one left. Therefore be alert, since you don't know what day your Lord is coming. But know this: If the homeowner had known what time the thief was coming, he would have stayed alert and not let his house be broken into. This is why you also must be ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
Power and Great Glory - Matthew 24:29 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days; The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed it's light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples on the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."
This is it!
quote:
How to Make the First Rapture
It's clear from reading Matthew above, that there are two raptures – and considering current events, the first rapture may be a lot sooner than you think.
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I have told my congregation that this Feast of Trumpets will very likely be the Rapture. I have stuck my neck out all the way because I am the watchman and I don’t want to be at fault for anyone left behind. Here are the reasons I believe that we have come to the day of our blessed hope.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/24/2008 2:38:05 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 487
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There are not two raptures.
(There are two resurrections though.)
There is one rapture and it happens on the Day of the Lord which will be the fulfillment of and in like manner as Rosh ha-Shannah.
No one knows when that Day will come, not even Jesus! The only one who knows is the Father.
We will all be here September 30th.
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/24/2008 2:45:06 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3543
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
There are not two raptures.
(There are two resurrections though.)
There is one rapture and it happens on the Day of the Lord which will be the fulfillment of and in like manner as Rosh ha-Shannah.
No one knows when that Day will come, not even Jesus! The only one who knows is the Father.
We will all be here September 30th.
Good. Now I know I won't be alone. LOL.
I look forward to the newsletters once these dates come and go also.
quote:
Revelation 20:4-5
4. Then I saw thrones and those that sat upon them and judgment
was given to them, and I saw the lives of those who had been
beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the
Word of God and who did not worship the beast or his image and
did not take the mark upon their foreheads or upon their hands.
Then they became alive again and reigned with the Messiah one
thousand years.
5. The rest of the dead did not become alive again until the
thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Reveleation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown violently into the lake of fire.
This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:15
And if someone was not found written in the Book of Life, he
was cast into the lake of fire.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 9/24/2008 2:53:09 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/24/2008 4:56:17 PM
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cwb
Posts: 208
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From: Eastern NC
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Yes, I believe Matthew 24 does NOT refer to the rapture of the church, but the separation of chaff and wheat:
Jesus:"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.".
Rapture on day X.
Great Tribulation.
Notice of the coming of the Son of man, just like notice to Noah.
I don't believe I would call the second coming a 'rapture' tho', for the separation of tares (FIRST) Mt 13 v 30 from the wheat (Great Tribulation believers), results in the establishment of Hell, where the tares are cast v 42. Hell is not established when the church is raptured.
He does not come for the Rapture. He sends his angels to collect us, and meet him in the air. Mt 24 v 31.
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/24/2008 10:29:18 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 487
Joined: 10/5/2006
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cwb: I am wary of how you're putting your eschatology together...
When Jesus comes again on the Day of the Lord, He comes on the clouds. It is that scene, as reported by Paul in accordance with Jesus' prophecy in the Olivet Discourse, in which we are gathered up and the Rapture happens (as is the wheat is gathered up to Heaven in Mt 13 and the Harvest is done in Rev 14 and the result of that Harvest is the wheat showing up in Heaven in Rev 7:9).
Jesus begins the Harvest and He is joined by angels.
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/25/2008 9:12:05 AM
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SwordLady
Posts: 12
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
There are not two raptures.
(There are two resurrections though.)
There is one rapture and it happens on the Day of the Lord which will be the fulfillment of and in like manner as Rosh ha-Shannah.
No one knows when that Day will come, not even Jesus! The only one who knows is the Father.
We will all be here September 30th.
How do you then understand this:
1 Thessalonians 5
The Day of the Lord
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
_____________________________
2 Thes 2:1-12
...because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie...
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/25/2008 2:00:44 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3543
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
This is an idiom.
quote:
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
This is about the time the wrath of God is poured out.
Labor pains is a time factor. When it's due, not premature.
quote:
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
We are to be about the Father's business.
Again, playing off the idiom. We are not to be asleep on our watch.
quote:
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
We don't have to worry about the wrath of God. We are part of the first Resurrection.
quote:
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
This is good news.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/25/2008 5:59:39 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 487
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwordLady
How do you then understand this:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
We do not have Paul's previous teaching to the Thessalonians and that's a shame because we're missing some of the information Paul taught to them, like who the "one" is who is in the midst holding the Man of Lawlessness back... They had more instruction on the Day of the Lord.
We have Jesus' Olivet Discourse where He teaches about the sequence-of-events which precede that day.
We have the book of Revelation which puts the Day of the Lord in context of the overall sequence-of-events as presented in the Seal chronology of chapters 4 through 11 exclusive of the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses.
We will not be surprised by the coming of the Day of the Lord = that is what it means to me.
We will know when the time is ripe even if we do not know when that Day will be.
Right now, we are still not there yet; the one 'seven' has yet to begin, but it will.
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/25/2008 11:40:19 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 487
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Keep readin', and listen to the Voice of the Spirit of the Lord. All will become clear. Just LISTEN - His voice is pretty loud, and pretty clear.
Keep reading your stuff?
I don't think so.
How about I read what is in the Bible instead. That is how God can communicate with us with the inspired text.
I have assembled a whole eschatology based on a sequence-of-events analysis of God's word. He presents prophecy in linear narratives with specific and unique events in them. Enough of these are repeated for me to integrate multiple and parallel accounts into a holistic picture which is in harmony with prophecy.
- and the key passage to the general timing of the Rapture? The Olivet Discourse.
Jesus gives us the key passage which allows the Seals to be linked directly to the one 'seven' through the specific and unique signature of the Day of the Lord.
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/26/2008 2:07:56 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint!
You said,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
There are not two raptures.
(There are two resurrections though.)
There is one rapture and it happens on the Day of the Lord which will be the fulfillment of and in like manner as Rosh ha-Shannah.
No one knows when that Day will come, not even Jesus! The only one who knows is the Father.
We will all be here September 30th.
Be careful! Although "no one knows when that Day will come," the Day WILL come! and it MAY be on September 30th or SOONER, who knows? It's just best not to make blanket statements either way. Furthermore, we don't really know about Rosh haShannah, either.
Retrobyter
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/26/2008 2:25:01 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Lapidoth and SwordLady!
This is a wonderful interchange:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
This is an idiom.
quote:
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
This is about the time the wrath of God is poured out.
Labor pains is a time factor. When it's due, not premature.
quote:
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
We are to be about the Father's business.
Again, playing off the idiom. We are not to be asleep on our watch.
quote:
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
We don't have to worry about the wrath of God. We are part of the first Resurrection.
quote:
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
This is good news.
You got me to thinking about that analogy of the pregnant woman.... When a woman is pregnant, she is aware that she will be waiting for approximately nine months, but she does not know "the day or the hour!" It really IS the perfect analogy for what will happen at the Harpazo! You don't have to resort to calling the phrase "a thief in the night" an idiom, Lapidoth; the moment really will overtake those unprepared like a thief in the night! And, although God does not "appoint us to wrath," that does NOT mean that He must REMOVE us from the earth to avoid the wrath! He can protect us THROUGH the wrath! Furthermore, just as the husband can have all the bags packed and be ready with his own keys, clothes, and the car all gased up ready to take his wife in labor to the hospital, so we, too, are instructed to be ready!
Retrobyter
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/26/2008 2:29:11 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom again, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwordLady
How do you then understand this:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
We do not have Paul's previous teaching to the Thessalonians and that's a shame because we're missing some of the information Paul taught to them, like who the "one" is who is in the midst holding the Man of Lawlessness back... They had more instruction on the Day of the Lord.
We have Jesus' Olivet Discourse where He teaches about the sequence-of-events which precede that day.
We have the book of Revelation which puts the Day of the Lord in context of the overall sequence-of-events as presented in the Seal chronology of chapters 4 through 11 exclusive of the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses.
We will not be surprised by the coming of the Day of the Lord = that is what it means to me.
We will know when the time is ripe even if we do not know when that Day will be.
Right now, we are still not there yet; the one 'seven' has yet to begin, but it will.
You should be aware that it is quite possible (and imo, likely) that half of the final week has already passed! That will CERTAINLY change the expectations of the believer!
Retrobyter
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/26/2008 4:14:11 AM
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.IC.
Posts: 167
Joined: 6/16/2005
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G'day Retrobyter,,
quote:
You should be aware that it is quite possible (and imo, likely) that half of the final week has already passed! That will CERTAINLY change the expectations of the believer!
Amen
yours In Christ,,
God Bless
_____________________________
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, Lord God Almighty-
which was, and is, and is to come.
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/26/2008 5:47:42 AM
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SwordLady
Posts: 12
Joined: 9/25/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom again, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwordLady
How do you then understand this:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
We do not have Paul's previous teaching to the Thessalonians and that's a shame because we're missing some of the information Paul taught to them, like who the "one" is who is in the midst holding the Man of Lawlessness back... They had more instruction on the Day of the Lord.
We have Jesus' Olivet Discourse where He teaches about the sequence-of-events which precede that day.
We have the book of Revelation which puts the Day of the Lord in context of the overall sequence-of-events as presented in the Seal chronology of chapters 4 through 11 exclusive of the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses.
We will not be surprised by the coming of the Day of the Lord = that is what it means to me.
We will know when the time is ripe even if we do not know when that Day will be.
Right now, we are still not there yet; the one 'seven' has yet to begin, but it will.
You should be aware that it is quite possible (and imo, likely) that half of the final week has already passed! That will CERTAINLY change the expectations of the believer!
Retrobyter
Why do you think that we are already in the 7 years?
_____________________________
2 Thes 2:1-12
...because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie...
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/26/2008 7:46:10 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 487
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Be careful! Although "no one knows when that Day will come," the Day WILL come! and it MAY be on September 30th or SOONER, who knows?
Nonsense. Of course the Day will come, that is in prophecy, but it cannot come this September 30th.
MT 24:32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
• The one 'seven' must be forced through. (Dan 9:27)
• The fourth beast of a nation comes into being and a beast of a man leads it for 42 months. (Rev 13:1/5)
• Then there will be opposition against God and exaltation of himself. (2Th 2:4)
• The “one” will be removed from the midst. (2Th 2:7)
• Then we'll see the beast of a man setting himself up as God - the midpoint abomination. (Mt 24:15; 2Th 2:4; Rev 13:14)
• Thus, the man of lawlessness will revealed. (2Th 2:8)
• Two laws will go into effect by the false prophet. (Rev 13:15-17)
• The Great Tribulation occurs as a result and the Elect starve and are martyred. (Mt 24:21, 22)
• The Day of the Lord occurs interrupting it (sun/moon/star event) (Mt 24:29)
• Jesus comes. (Mt 24:30)
• We who are still alive and are left are gathered up to Him (Mt 24:31; 1Th 4:17)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
It's just best not to make blanket statements either way. Furthermore, we don't really know about Rosh haShannah, either.
We can't figure out anything (blanket statement)? Nonsense. Jesus said we will know when the time is ripe.
We DO know about Rosh ha-Shanah. It is the only two-day Holy Day. I have assembled all the events which do take place on the Day of the Lord and they would need two literal days to be accomplished as well - Rosh ha-Shanah is the pattern for the Day of the Lord. It is not without coincidence that the Jews call it the "Returning Anew."
Rosh ha-Shanah is the unknown day because it MUST be observed. Even though the Jews knew when the new moon would appear, if it was not observed, they could not start the Festival of Trumpets.
Rosh ha-Shanah's Festival of Trumpets began with the "Last Trumpet." This was the companion and corresponding other horn of the Adekah Ram, the "First Trumpet" which sounded the last of the Springtime Festivals: the Feast of the Firstfruits: Pentecost.
So don't tell me I can't know something when God tells me what will be.
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/26/2008 7:48:02 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 487
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
You should be aware that it is quite possible (and imo, likely) that half of the final week has already passed!
Nonsense.
You want to change the expectations of the believer? To what?
Be careful with God's Word.
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/26/2008 8:37:10 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 930
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: online
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In all due fairness...The Biblical feast is Yom Teruah or the day of Trumpets, it is this feast that no one knows the day or hour it has been retermed Rosh Hashana.
There is good teaching on this...I'll post later on this...
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/26/2008 1:46:18 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3543
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
We do not have Paul's previous teaching to the Thessalonians and that's a shame because we're missing some of the information Paul taught to them,
I used to think this. What letters did Paul write that we didn't have.
I Thess. 5:1
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
There were no needed previous letters.
They had the information already. It's called the TaNaKh.
And Lev. 23 specifically.
It's good that the so-called Bible teachers are learning about the Feasts of God, etc.
But they filter it through their own dogmas that they inherited from those before them.
The Feasts are the time-tables.
The pre-trib is the filter that takes us into the fringes.
Take off the filters we have been taught and things begin to line up.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/26/2008 2:02:11 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 487
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
We do not have Paul's previous teaching to the Thessalonians and that's a shame because we're missing some of the information Paul taught to them,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I used to think this. What letters did Paul write that we didn't have.
He taught the Thessalonians personally. No one wrote down a transcript. Of course, they didn't have camcorders, tapeless voice recorders, tape recorders or modern stenographic machines either so I guess we'll have to excuse them for not saving everything Paul spoke to them about.
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RE: Two Raptures - 9/26/2008 2:21:06 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3543
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
We do not have Paul's previous teaching to the Thessalonians and that's a shame because we're missing some of the information Paul taught to them,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I used to think this. What letters did Paul write that we didn't have.
He taught the Thessalonians personally. No one wrote down a transcript. Of course, they didn't have camcorders, tapeless voice recorders, tape recorders or modern stenographic machines either so I guess we'll have to excuse them for not saving everything Paul spoke to them about.
ROFL................................they're excused.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Two Raptures - 10/8/2008 2:47:07 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, SwordLady.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwordLady
Why do you think that we are already in the 7 years?
(Sorry. Sometimes I miss posts. Just saw this today.)
Well, my reasoning is this: I believe that the way we look at Dani'el 9 should be a little different.
Here's Dani'el 9:24-27, first in KJV English, and then in Hebrew:
Dan 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 49 49
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 45 94
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 50 144
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 52 196
KJV
Dan. 9:24-27
24 Shaavu`iym shiv`iym nechtakh `al-`amkhaa v’`al-`iyr qaadshekha l’kalei’ hapesha` uwlhaateem chaTaa’owt uwlkhapeer `aavon uwlhaaviy’ tsedeq `olaamiym v’lachtom chaazown v’naaviy’ v’limshoach qodesh qaadaashiym: 23 23
25 V’teeda` v’taskeel min-motsaa’ daavaar l’haashiyv v’livnowt Y’ruwshaalaim `ad-Maashiyach naagiyd shaavu`iym shiv`aah v’shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim taashuwv v’nivnataah rchowv v’chaaruwts uwvtsowq haa`itiym: 22 45
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt: 21 66
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem: 20 86
Hebrew-English Bible by The Bible Society in Israel
The numbers following each verse are respectively the number of words in the verse and the number of words total to that point. As you can see, it took 196 English words to convey 86 Hebrew words.
Breaking it down, word by word...
24 Shaavu`iym = Sevens
shiv`iym = seventy
nechtakh = are-determined
`al- = upon
`amkhaa = your-people
v’`al- = and-upon
`iyr = city
qaadshekha = your-holy
l’kalei’ = to-restrict
hapesha` = the-revolt
uwlhaateem = and-to-close-up
chaTaa’owt = offenses
uwlkhapeer = and-to-cover
`aavon = perversity
uwlhaaviy’ = and-to-bring
tsedeq = righteousness
`olaamiym = into-ages
v’lachtom = and-to-close-up
chaazown = vision
v’naaviy’ = and-prophecy
v’limshoach = and-to-anoint
qodesh = holy
qaadaashiym:= of-holies
25 V’teeda` = And-know
v’taskeel = and-be-intelligent
min- = from
motsaa’ = exit
daavaar = of-word
l’haashiyv = to-return
v’livnowt = and-to-build
Y’ruwshaalaim = Jerusalem
`ad- = until
Maashiyach = Messiah
naagiyd = Prince
shaavu`iym = sevens
shiv`aah = seven
v’shaavu`iym = and-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
taashuwv = to-turn-back
v’nivnataah = and-shall-be-built
r'chowv = street
v’chaaruwts = and-moat
uwvtsowq = and-in-distress
haa`itiym: = the-times.
26 V’’achareey = And-after
hashaavu`iym = the sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
yikaareet = shall-be-cut-off
Maashiyach = Messiah
v’’eeyn = and-no-longer-exist
low = for-Himself
v’haa`iyr = and-the-city
v’haqodesh = and-the-holy
yashchiyt = shall-ruin
`am = people
naagiyd = of-prince
habaa’ = to-come
v’qitsow = and-its-extremity
vasheTef = with-a-flood
v’`ad = and-unto
qeets = extremity
milchaamaah = of-
a-battle
nech’retset = are-decided
shomeemowt: = devastations.
27 V’higbiyr = And-he-shall-make-resolute
b’riyt = an-in-cutting
laarabiym = with-many
shaavuwa` = seven
‘echaad = one
vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
hashaavuwa` = of-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-relax
zevach = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-donation
v’`al = and-against
k’naf = an-edge-or-extremity
shiquwtsiym = of-abominations
m’shomeem = he-shall-devastate
v’`ad- = and-until
kaalaah = completion
v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decided
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al- = upon
shomeem: = desolate.
Therefore, I read it this way:
24 Seventy sevens are determined upon your people and upon your awesome city to quell the revolt, to close up offenses, to cover perversion, to usher righteousness into the ages, to close up vision and prophecy, and to paint the Holy of Holies with oil.
25 So, know and be intelligent: From the issuing of the word to return and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah Prince, seven sevens and sixty-two sevens to turn back and a street and a moat shall-be-built in stressful times.
26 And after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off and not exist but not for Himself. And the city and the Holy Place shall be ruined by the people of a prince to come and its extremity with a flood, and unto that extremity of a war, desolations are decided.
27 And He shall make the in-cutting (covenant) resolute with many one seven, but in middle of the seven he shall stop sacrifice and gift, and because of the flurry of abominations, He shall make it desolate even until the end, and that which was decided shall be poured upon the desolate.
Thus, I see the whole thing about the “Messiah” and very little about the “prince to come.” In fact, the “prince to come” is part of a prepositional phrase, both in English and in Hebrew, and thus cannot be the antecedent for the word “He” in verse 27! Therefore, the “He” must refer back to “Messiah” in verses 25 and 26.
Now, look what Yeshua` said in Matthew 23:37-39,
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
How did He accomplish this?
Matt 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV
Heb 10:16-22
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV
Retrobyter
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RE: Two Raptures - 10/8/2008 12:54:43 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3543
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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I've copied that off to chew on some more.
Got any salt to go with it? LOL.
thanks
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Two Raptures - 10/8/2008 1:45:38 PM
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bettymackII
Posts: 1348
Joined: 4/28/2007
Status: offline
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two raptures: Is that someone who wears rosy colored glasses with double vision?
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RE: Two Raptures - 10/8/2008 10:41:51 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Be careful! Although "no one knows when that Day will come," the Day WILL come! and it MAY be on September 30th or SOONER, who knows?
Nonsense. Of course the Day will come, that is in prophecy, but it cannot come this September 30th.
MT 24:32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
• The one 'seven' must be forced through. (Dan 9:27)
• The fourth beast of a nation comes into being and a beast of a man leads it for 42 months. (Rev 13:1/5)
• Then there will be opposition against God and exaltation of himself. (2Th 2:4)
• The “one” will be removed from the midst. (2Th 2:7)
• Then we'll see the beast of a man setting himself up as God - the midpoint abomination. (Mt 24:15; 2Th 2:4; Rev 13:14)
• Thus, the man of lawlessness will revealed. (2Th 2:8)
• Two laws will go into effect by the false prophet. (Rev 13:15-17)
• The Great Tribulation occurs as a result and the Elect starve and are martyred. (Mt 24:21, 22)
• The Day of the Lord occurs interrupting it (sun/moon/star event) (Mt 24:29)
• Jesus comes. (Mt 24:30)
• We who are still alive and are left are gathered up to Him (Mt 24:31; 1Th 4:17)
"Nonsense?" Eh? Have you even considered that we ALL could be wrong? There's the possibility, however remote it may seem to you or to me, that pretribulational rapturistic premillennialists could be right. They have a system of theology that's just as closed a system of beliefs as ours are! Personally, I agree with you about the placement of the "harpazo" or "rapture" above. However, I'm not going to be so naive as to suggest that I know the future and have it all figured out.
Now, first, the one seven is already half over.
Second, the fourth beast already exists.
Third, most of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the pressure and the escape of believing Jews during the crisis of 70 C.E.
Fourth, Dan. 9:24-27 is NOT about the "Antichrist" or the "Beast."
Fifth, the term "Elect" is NOT about the "Church!" The term "Elect," the equivalent of God's "Chosen People" refers to the JEWS!
Sixth, a "man of lawlessness" or a "man of sin" is a "MAN OF NO-TORAH!" He is one who denegrades the Torah and teaches others not to keep the Law of God!
Seventh, the purpose for the "gathering up to Him" is to transport us--not to "Heaven" but to ISRAEL!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
It's just best not to make blanket statements either way. Furthermore, we don't really know about Rosh haShannah, either.
We can't figure out anything (blanket statement)? Nonsense. Jesus said we will know when the time is ripe.
We DO know about Rosh ha-Shanah. It is the only two-day Holy Day. I have assembled all the events which do take place on the Day of the Lord and they would need two literal days to be accomplished as well - Rosh ha-Shanah is the pattern for the Day of the Lord. It is not without coincidence that the Jews call it the "Returning Anew."
Rosh ha-Shanah is the unknown day because it MUST be observed. Even though the Jews knew when the new moon would appear, if it was not observed, they could not start the Festival of Trumpets.
Rosh ha-Shanah's Festival of Trumpets began with the "Last Trumpet." This was the companion and corresponding other horn of the Adekah Ram, the "First Trumpet" which sounded the last of the Springtime Festivals: the Feast of the Firstfruits: Pentecost.
So don't tell me I can't know something when God tells me what will be.
Oh. So, you conclude "Nonsense," again? Yes, Yeshua` said we would know when the time was ripe, BUT He also said to WATCH! As I said in another topic, the analogy of the pregnant woman is a good allegory: One may count the "nine months" and know when her time is right, b | | |
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