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are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/28/2008 4:13:06 PM
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drussell52
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Hi. Earlier today I was looking at the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America position summary on human sexuality, which is an 8-year study and findings from a task force within that denomination, which is supposedly being discussed in that branch of the Lutheran church until late fall. In it, is the rather strong allegation, that Lutherans are coming from a unique position in presenting their vieww (paraphrasing) not a list of rules but that God shows His love in coming to each of us in the messiness of life. I have heard some Lutherans in particular, Anglicans and Reformed folk kind of separate themselves from the evangelical side of things, but wonder how is Romans 6:1-2 understood and other similar passages where indulgence in sin has consequences. Did not Martin Luther assert, one cannot by reason or strength save myself or even bring myself to a position to "be saved", seems to excuse one for their actions. Or, is this the church's way to compromise on social issues like gays, abortion, divorce, immigration, since consensus cannot be reached and inclusion is wanted? Personally I have numerous problems with Protestantism as a whole.. I won't go further but simply ask for explanation of how "you" see yourselves as "unique." Thanks..
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/28/2008 4:46:27 PM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drussell52
Did not Martin Luther assert, one cannot by reason or strength save myself or even bring myself to a position to "be saved", seems to excuse one for their actions.
Martin Luther did not believe in "decision theology," which basically doesn't believe that we are sinful to the core. People who adhere to decision theology say by our own free will we can choose Christ. Where in Scripture it says we cannot do such a thing. We are sinful. God chooses us. A person is converted by the Holy Spirit working through the Gospel word. That is how one comes to faith, not by our "decision", since our heart is utterly wicked and it's impossible for us to accept Christ.
And this belief does not excuse our actions. We do not believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), so we do believe, even a true believer, can fall from the faith.
And about the ELCA draft, they have gone astray. Hopefully they'll come back to the faith. But they are on the liberal side. But, besides the ELCA, all other Lutheran Synods are Confessional and very conservative. Confessional means that we believe the Bible is the sole authority and that the Lutheran Confessions (Book of Concord) are faithful to the Scriptures. The ELCA has drifted away from being Confessional, and from the word of God, so they are not representative of all Lutherans.
I am in the Missouri Synod, whcih is the Largest Confessional Synod, and we are absolutely against homosexuality, abortion, and divorce. We call those actions for what they are, and that is sin.
And about Lutherans being evangelical, we wouldn't call ourselves evangelical in todays loose terms. But sometimes Missouri Synod Lutherans refer to themselves as Evangelical Catholics. Catholic because of historical creeds, worship and Sacramentalism, and Evangelical in our trust in the good news of Christ, that in His cross He has saved us by sheer grace for a life of Christian freedom (but not freedom to sin though, that's not Christian freedom).
And the LCMS is keen on evangelizing. We are a very mission oriented Synod, unlike the ELCA that is focused on making peace with the homosexuals, and anyone elses behavior that conflicts with the authority of Scripture, such as female pastors.
If you want to read the Book of Concord to see what Confessional Lutherans believe, here is the website:
http://www.bookofconcord.org
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/28/2008 5:52:12 PM
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DougHorton
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I can say that the various reformed presbyterian churches would agree with most of what JesKlu wrote, except that we believe that God preserves the saints and that they cannot permanently fall away. (If fact, all Lutherans I know also believe this.)
For us, it is the PC USA which has strayed and taken the liberal stance.
If the Lutherans and reformed churches are unique, it certainly is NOT on the stand that homosexuality or any extramarital sex is sin. We may, however be unique in welcoming them into our churches.
(The difference between works based churches and grace based churches was evident in our home just yesterday. My niece's 14yo best friend scandalized their baptist church by announcing she was pregnant. While they criticized, cried and wondered how such a thing could happen, my wife and I gave immediate instructions to our own daughter that we should act out of grace and give this girl our love and not ostracize her. We affirmed that the sin was wrong, but that any baby was a great blessing from God.)
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/28/2008 10:58:05 PM
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drussell52
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Jesclu and Doug, thanks. Let me ask a little more. Since you are not a decision theology church, how do you explain choosing to baptize your infants, or handle verses like Romans 10:9-10 and Romans is it 10:13 Whoever calls on the Lord's name will be saved, and others like it. At some point the will is involved to follow Jesus, either a parent acting on behalf of an infant, or you and I at an accountable age deciding to stay the course. I like the grace orientation you cited Doug. Thanks for the explanation about evangelical.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/28/2008 11:38:37 PM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drussell52
Jesclu and Doug, thanks. Let me ask a little more. Since you are not a decision theology church, how do you explain choosing to baptize your infants, or handle verses like Romans 10:9-10 and Romans is it 10:13 Whoever calls on the Lord's name will be saved, and others like it. At some point the will is involved to follow Jesus, either a parent acting on behalf of an infant, or you and I at an accountable age deciding to stay the course. I like the grace orientation you cited Doug. Thanks for the explanation about evangelical.
Hello Drussell52,
Jesus said to let the children come to Him.
Matthew 19:13-15
13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, 14but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." 15And he laid his hands on them and went away.
Luke 18:15-17
15 Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 17 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
Acts 2:38-39
38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
In the Acts passage, Peter said basically, Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Basically, in baptism, God washes away our sins and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit, as this passage says. Infants are just as in need of forgiveness as any adult, for they are sinners too. That is why we baptize them, and all ages. We do not restrict baptism just to adults, or just to children. We baptize all ages. As it says in Matthew 28.
Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Here Jesus says to baptize all nations, that means Men, Women, Children and Infants. Here Jesus is saying to baptize all age groups, everybody.
In the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, we do Confirmation, which a public rite in the church by which you do profess the faith you received in baptism. So, baptism and confirmation are kindof linked. It is after Confirmation that that you are allowed to receive the Lord's Supper which occurs in 8th grade.
Thank you for allowing me to share where I come from and where I worship God in Christ in.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 9:36:37 AM
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drfuss
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drfuss: It is my understandeing that Lutherans believe in unconditional election, but do not believe in irresistible grace. Do Lutherans believe grace is resistible: before trusting in Christ, after trusting in Christ, or both before and after trusting in Christ?
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 10:00:26 AM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
drfuss: It is my understandeing that Lutherans believe in unconditional election, but do not believe in irresistible grace. Do Lutherans believe grace is resistible: before trusting in Christ, after trusting in Christ, or both before and after trusting in Christ?
We believe that a person can fall from the faith, because the scriptures repeatedly warns us (1 Cor. 10:12; 1 Pet. 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:17; Heb. 2:1-3; 3:12-19; 6:4-8, etc.).
But we also believe, if a believer continues in true repentence, and he/she is truly sorry for their sins, they can be assured that grace has saved them. (John 10:27-29; Romans 8; Heb. 13: 5-6, etc.).
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2647
But those who believe in the "double election" tend to create a false security based on "since I'm saved, I can do anything I want to do and I am still saved." This kind of doctrine creates false security making the person believe it doesn't matter if they commit grave sins all their life, they'll still be saved. That is false, and that is where we believe a person can fall from the faith by not continuing in repentence.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 10:16:15 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
But those who believe in the "double election" tend to create a false security based on "since I'm saved, I can do anything I want to do and I am still saved." This kind of doctrine creates false security making the person believe it doesn't matter if they commit grave sins all their life, they'll still be saved....
The only times I've ever heard talk about a license to sin have come from those who believe they can forfeit eternal life, not from those who believe in Perseverance of the Saints.
Conversely, I've never heard a teacher or preacher that believes in Perseverance of the Saints to ever even hint that someone that has been born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit would live anyway they please without serious chastisement from God that results in repentance and restoration.
IOW, it's only used to falsely cast a bad light on those who believe the scriptures teach Perseverance of the Saints.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 10:31:48 AM
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BookerG
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To say that we are not a decision theology church does not mean we think nobody ever makes any decisions. It just means that in the one decision that really matters, it was God who chose us, not we who chose God. Lutherans believe in free will, but before faith that human will is so darkened, dead, perverse and hostile to the truth that it cannot make the right decision. The Holy Spirit working through the Word draws a person into the light. By the time we are capable of deciding we want the light we are already in the light. He doesn’t do so against our will; rather he aligns our will with his, so that the decision and choice was his, even though all of the thought processes, choices and decisions made along the way from unbelief to faith were our own, of free will.
After being brought to faith a person’s free will fully cooperates with the Spirit, so that we are capable of freely making decisions about how to live in the light, how to raise our children in the faith. We can freely decide and choose to remain in the faith, but only God could choose to draw us to faith.
Our free will means that at every step of the way, before, during and after conversion, we can choose to resist God’s grace. Jesus longed to gather Jerusalem to himself like a hen gathering its chicks, but they were not willing.
As for perseverance, I would say that it is impossible for the elect to permanently stray and be lost. But that’s not because they lack the choice or they can’t resist God’s grace, but because they are those whom God in his grace has determined will not be lost. Exactly how man’s free will and God’s sovereignty fit together in all this is a mystery beyond human comprehension. Lutherans simply say that if we are saved, it is all to God’s glory and by God’s working. If we are lost it is all our own fault and our own damnably free will.
No one, Lutheran, Reformed, or anyone who takes God's Word seriously thinks a Christian has a license to sin. Period. (The ELCA doesn't take God's Word seriously, and they don't deserve the name Lutheran). It has nothing to do with ensuring our salvation or earning heaven or getting away with it since God won't punish us. We died with Christ, how can we live in sin? Christ's love compels us. We need no more reason than that.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 11:01:50 AM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
To say that we are not a decision theology church does not mean we think nobody ever makes any decisions. It just means that in the one decision that really matters, it was God who chose us, not we who chose God. Lutherans believe in free will, but before faith that human will is so darkened, dead, perverse and hostile to the truth that it cannot make the right decision. The Holy Spirit working through the Word draws a person into the light. By the time we are capable of deciding we want the light we are already in the light. He doesn’t do so against our will; rather he aligns our will with his, so that the decision and choice was his, even though all of the thought processes, choices and decisions made along the way from unbelief to faith were our own, of free will.
After being brought to faith a person’s free will fully cooperates with the Spirit, so that we are capable of freely making decisions about how to live in the light, how to raise our children in the faith. We can freely decide and choose to remain in the faith, but only God could choose to draw us to faith.
drufss: I think tne above says Lutherans believe grace is irresistible for the elect until you trust in Christ.
BookerG: Our free will means that at every step of the way, before, during and after conversion, we can choose to resist God’s grace. Jesus longed to gather Jerusalem to himself like a hen gathering its chicks, but they were not willing.
As for perseverance, I would say that it is impossible for the elect to permanently stray and be lost. But that’s not because they lack the choice or they can’t resist God’s grace, but because they are those whom God in his grace has determined will not be lost. Exactly how man’s free will and God’s sovereignty fit together in all this is a mystery beyond human comprehension. Lutherans simply say that if we are saved, it is all to God’s glory and by God’s working. If we are lost it is all our own fault and our own damnably free will.
No one, Lutheran, Reformed, or anyone who takes God's Word seriously thinks a Christian has a license to sin. Period. (The ELCA doesn't take God's Word seriously, and they don't deserve the name Lutheran). It has nothing to do with ensuring our salvation or earning heaven or getting away with it since God won't punish us. We died with Christ, how can we live in sin? Christ's love compels us. We need no more reason than that.
drfuss: Please note my comments within the above insert. I think the last two above paragraphs says Grace is resistible after you trust in Christ.
In a way, Lutherans believe the reverse of OSAS Christians. OSAS Christians believe Grace is resistible before trusting in Christ and (in effect) irresistibe after trusting in Christ. While Lutherans believe Grace is irresistible before Trusting in Christ and resistible after trusting in Christ. While I am still considering this, I tend to think the Lutherans have a good point.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 11:18:52 AM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Just a reminder--this is a thread about *Lutherans,* and it needs to not take a turn to a Calvinist thread, okay?
Keep it about Lutherans and it will be all right.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 12:16:37 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
To say that we are not a decision theology church does not mean we think nobody ever makes any decisions. It just means that in the one decision that really matters, it was God who chose us, not we who chose God. Lutherans believe in free will, but before faith that human will is so darkened, dead, perverse and hostile to the truth that it cannot make the right decision. The Holy Spirit working through the Word draws a person into the light. By the time we are capable of deciding we want the light we are already in the light. He doesn’t do so against our will; rather he aligns our will with his, so that the decision and choice was his, even though all of the thought processes, choices and decisions made along the way from unbelief to faith were our own, of free will.
After being brought to faith a person’s free will fully cooperates with the Spirit, so that we are capable of freely making decisions about how to live in the light, how to raise our children in the faith. We can freely decide and choose to remain in the faith, but only God could choose to draw us to faith.
Our free will means that at every step of the way, before, during and after conversion, we can choose to resist God’s grace. Jesus longed to gather Jerusalem to himself like a hen gathering its chicks, but they were not willing.
As for perseverance, I would say that it is impossible for the elect to permanently stray and be lost. But that’s not because they lack the choice or they can’t resist God’s grace, but because they are those whom God in his grace has determined will not be lost. Exactly how man’s free will and God’s sovereignty fit together in all this is a mystery beyond human comprehension. Lutherans simply say that if we are saved, it is all to God’s glory and by God’s working. If we are lost it is all our own fault and our own damnably free will.
No one, Lutheran, Reformed, or anyone who takes God's Word seriously thinks a Christian has a license to sin. Period. (The ELCA doesn't take God's Word seriously, and they don't deserve the name Lutheran). It has nothing to do with ensuring our salvation or earning heaven or getting away with it since God won't punish us. We died with Christ, how can we live in sin? Christ's love compels us. We need no more reason than that.
I don't think I could've said it any better.
Soli Deo Gloria!
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 12:27:45 PM
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drfuss
Posts: 188
Joined: 3/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
To say that we are not a decision theology church does not mean we think nobody ever makes any decisions. It just means that in the one decision that really matters, it was God who chose us, not we who chose God. Lutherans believe in free will, but before faith that human will is so darkened, dead, perverse and hostile to the truth that it cannot make the right decision. The Holy Spirit working through the Word draws a person into the light. By the time we are capable of deciding we want the light we are already in the light. He doesn’t do so against our will; rather he aligns our will with his, so that the decision and choice was his, even though all of the thought processes, choices and decisions made along the way from unbelief to faith were our own, of free will.
After being brought to faith a person’s free will fully cooperates with the Spirit, so that we are capable of freely making decisions about how to live in the light, how to raise our children in the faith. We can freely decide and choose to remain in the faith, but only God could choose to draw us to faith.
drufss: I think tne above says Lutherans believe grace is irresistible for the elect until you trust in Christ.
BookerG: Our free will means that at every step of the way, before, during and after conversion, we can choose to resist God’s grace. Jesus longed to gather Jerusalem to himself like a hen gathering its chicks, but they were not willing.
As for perseverance, I would say that it is impossible for the elect to permanently stray and be lost. But that’s not because they lack the choice or they can’t resist God’s grace, but because they are those whom God in his grace has determined will not be lost. Exactly how man’s free will and God’s sovereignty fit together in all this is a mystery beyond human comprehension. Lutherans simply say that if we are saved, it is all to God’s glory and by God’s working. If we are lost it is all our own fault and our own damnably free will.
No one, Lutheran, Reformed, or anyone who takes God's Word seriously thinks a Christian has a license to sin. Period. (The ELCA doesn't take God's Word seriously, and they don't deserve the name Lutheran). It has nothing to do with ensuring our salvation or earning heaven or getting away with it since God won't punish us. We died with Christ, how can we live in sin? Christ's love compels us. We need no more reason than that.
drfuss: Please note my comments within the above insert. I think the last two above paragraphs say Grace is resistible after you trust in Christ.
drfuss: To BookerG, Is my interpretation of your post on Lutheran beliefs correct, or am I missing something? I am simply trying to find out how Lutherans handle irresistible Grace and resistible Grace and how they fit together in Lutheran theology.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 12:31:32 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drussell52
Jesclu and Doug, thanks. Let me ask a little more. Since you are not a decision theology church, how do you explain choosing to baptize your infants, or handle verses like Romans 10:9-10 and Romans is it 10:13 Whoever calls on the Lord's name will be saved, and others like it. At some point the will is involved to follow Jesus, either a parent acting on behalf of an infant, or you and I at an accountable age deciding to stay the course. I like the grace orientation you cited Doug. Thanks for the explanation about evangelical.
The baptism of children is a part of the covenant, a continuation of the sign of circumcision, except expanded for both genders. We do not claim that salvation is imparted through baptism, but that the baptized are entitled to the benefits of the covenant. This in no way affects the fact that we are all called to repentance and required to turn from sin to Christ.
BTW -- The term "evangelical" was coined by the Reformers to distinguish churches teaching the doctrines of grace from other churches. Now the term has been adopted by so many churches it is practically meaningless.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 12:56:19 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
To say that we are not a decision theology church does not mean we think nobody ever makes any decisions. It just means that in the one decision that really matters, it was God who chose us, not we who chose God. Lutherans believe in free will, but before faith that human will is so darkened, dead, perverse and hostile to the truth that it cannot make the right decision. The Holy Spirit working through the Word draws a person into the light. By the time we are capable of deciding we want the light we are already in the light. He doesn’t do so against our will; rather he aligns our will with his, so that the decision and choice was his, even though all of the thought processes, choices and decisions made along the way from unbelief to faith were our own, of free will.
After being brought to faith a person’s free will fully cooperates with the Spirit, so that we are capable of freely making decisions about how to live in the light, how to raise our children in the faith. We can freely decide and choose to remain in the faith, but only God could choose to draw us to faith.
drufss: I think tne above says Lutherans believe grace is irresistible for the elect until you trust in Christ.
BookerG: Our free will means that at every step of the way, before, during and after conversion, we can choose to resist God’s grace. Jesus longed to gather Jerusalem to himself like a hen gathering its chicks, but they were not willing.
As for perseverance, I would say that it is impossible for the elect to permanently stray and be lost. But that’s not because they lack the choice or they can’t resist God’s grace, but because they are those whom God in his grace has determined will not be lost. Exactly how man’s free will and God’s sovereignty fit together in all this is a mystery beyond human comprehension. Lutherans simply say that if we are saved, it is all to God’s glory and by God’s working. If we are lost it is all our own fault and our own damnably free will.
No one, Lutheran, Reformed, or anyone who takes God's Word seriously thinks a Christian has a license to sin. Period. (The ELCA doesn't take God's Word seriously, and they don't deserve the name Lutheran). It has nothing to do with ensuring our salvation or earning heaven or getting away with it since God won't punish us. We died with Christ, how can we live in sin? Christ's love compels us. We need no more reason than that.
drfuss: Please note my comments within the above insert. I think the last two above paragraphs say Grace is resistible after you trust in Christ.
drfuss: To BookerG, Is my interpretation of your post on Lutheran beliefs correct, or am I missing something? I am simply trying to find out how Lutherans handle irresistible Grace and resistible Grace and how they fit together in Lutheran theology.
I hope this site helps. Here the Missouri Synod discusses what they believe about the TULIP
T (Total Depravity) The Calvinists rightly teach that all descendants of Adam are by nature totally corrupt in spiritual matters. People do not have freedom of the will to turn to God in faith or cooperate in their conversions (Eph. 2:1; John 3:5-6; Rom. 8:7).
U (Unconditional predestination) Scripture does teach that it is by grace that God has predestinated the elect to eternal salvation and given them justifying faith. It is not because of any condition fulfilled by them (2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 1:4-6; Phil. 1:29). However, the Bible does not teach, as do the Calvinists, that some are predestined for damnation. God wants all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4).
L (Limited atonement) It is true that Christ died for the church and purchased it with His blood (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:28). Furthermore, His atoning death does not mean that all people are saved (1 Cor. 1:18). However, Jesus died for all (2 Cor. 5:15).
I (Irresistible grace) We agree that God makes us alive by His mighty power, without our aid (Eph. 2:5; John 1:13). But Scripture warns that we can resist God’s gracious call (Matt. 23:27; Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 6:1). And some people do resist God’s grace, or all would be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Furthermore, God warns us not to resist His grace (2 Cor. 6:1; Heb. 4:7).
P (Perseverance in grace) We affirm with Scripture that those who are predestined to salvation cannot be lost but will continue by God’s power to a blessed end (Rom. 8:30; 1 Peter 1:5). Scripture does not teach, however, that those who come to faith cannot lose that faith (Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29; Ps. 51:11). God urges His people not to continue in sin but to live in repentance and faith (Rom. 6:1-4).
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2242
So, on the I (Irresistible grace) part, we are in the middle. God does make us alive by His power without our aid. But scripture says we can resist God's call and grace or else everybody would be saved.
I hope this is informative.
Soli Deo Gloria!
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 1:34:01 PM
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BookerG
Posts: 86
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
drufss: I think tne above says Lutherans believe grace is irresistible for the elect until you trust in Christ.
drfuss: Please note my comments within the above insert. I think the last two above paragraphs say Grace is resistible after you trust in Christ.
drfuss: To BookerG, Is my interpretation of your post on Lutheran beliefs correct, or am I missing something? I am simply trying to find out how Lutherans handle irresistible Grace and resistible Grace and how they fit together in Lutheran theology.
I think I'd say your characterization is very close, but I'm not completely comfortable with the terminology.
The elect will come to faith. That is certain. And that faith is entirely God's working. In that sense grace is irresistible, on the whole. But even the elect may resist for a long time. It's not like God gave them resistible grace a dozen times, and then one shot of irresistible grace. It's more like God had in his eternal wisdom planned out salvation in your life, so that every application of his Word and his grace during your life had its desired effect. Is that "irresistible"? Yes, but not necessarily in the way the term is usually used that, to me at least, gives the impression you are dragged kicking and screaming into faith whether you like it or not.
Dividing God's grace into resistible and irresistible seems to be an attempt to explain, why some and not others. It supposes that the grace God gives to those who don't believe was a different grace. To the question why some and not others, I like to point to Peter's question after Christ's resurrection, "What about him?" pointing to John. Jesus said, that's none of your business. You follow me. The little hints the Bible gives into God's eternal counsel was not given to us so we could figure out What about him or her? Their purpose is only to comfort me with the knowledge that no one can snatch me out of the Good Shepherd's hands, and to humble me with the knowledge that my salvation is to God's glory, not to my own pride. Any explanations beyond that are unnecessary speculation that doesn't really help me in my own following of Christ.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 3:19:34 PM
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drfuss
Posts: 188
Joined: 3/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
drufss: I think tne above says Lutherans believe grace is irresistible for the elect until you trust in Christ.
drfuss: Please note my comments within the above insert. I think the last two above paragraphs say Grace is resistible after you trust in Christ.
drfuss: To BookerG, Is my interpretation of your post on Lutheran beliefs correct, or am I missing something? I am simply trying to find out how Lutherans handle irresistible Grace and resistible Grace and how they fit together in Lutheran theology.
I think I'd say your characterization is very close, but I'm not completely comfortable with the terminology.
The elect will come to faith. That is certain. And that faith is entirely God's working. In that sense grace is irresistible, on the whole. But even the elect may resist for a long time. It's not like God gave them resistible grace a dozen times, and then one shot of irresistible grace. It's more like God had in his eternal wisdom planned out salvation in your life, so that every application of his Word and his grace during your life had its desired effect. Is that "irresistible"? Yes, but not necessarily in the way the term is usually used that, to me at least, gives the impression you are dragged kicking and screaming into faith whether you like it or not.
Dividing God's grace into resistible and irresistible seems to be an attempt to explain, why some and not others. It supposes that the grace God gives to those who don't believe was a different grace. To the question why some and not others, I like to point to Peter's question after Christ's resurrection, "What about him?" pointing to John. Jesus said, that's none of your business. You follow me. The little hints the Bible gives into God's eternal counsel was not given to us so we could figure out What about him or her? Their purpose is only to comfort me with the knowledge that no one can snatch me out of the Good Shepherd's hands, and to humble me with the knowledge that my salvation is to God's glory, not to my own pride. Any explanations beyond that are unnecessary speculation that doesn't really help me in my own following of Christ.
drfuss: Thank you.
I think Classic Calvinism believes the Elect are instantly regenerated when Grace is presented so that Grace is immediately irresistible. I get the impression from these posts that the regeneration of the elect is more of a process in the Lutheran belief. Am I correct here on both the Lutheran and Classic Calvinism beliefs on regenreation of the Elect?
It appears that the Lutheran belief is close to Classic Calvinism until one trusts in Christ and then is close to Classic Arminian (not Wesleyan Arminian) after one trusts in Christ.
Unfortunatly, many times different terminology is used to describe the same beliefs which can lead to misunderstandings. I am trying to sort through this concerning Lutheran beliefs and you have been very helpful.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 4:37:01 PM
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BookerG
Posts: 86
Status: offline
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We're really straying from the OP question regarding how Lutherans are unique in their view of sin or social issues, although I don't know that there's any more to say beyond repudiating the report that was mentioned.
But to answer briefly, no, regeneration itself is not a process. You cross over from death to life in an instant, but it may take a long process of contact with the Word that prepares a person. I think of Martin Luther's tower epiphany; although I'm not saying I can say this is the exact moment when he was regenerated, he writes of the day when he suddenly came to the realization that the "righteousness of God" was not what God demands of us but what he imputes to us in Christ. It was not a process of gradual regeneration but passing from death to life, and yet when faith and new life came, it shone a new light on a whole lifetime of studying God's Word. That Word had, in its time, accomplished what God desired, first leading him to despair of his sins. There was a process, God's Word was working on his heart. But he was still dead and unregenerated until the moment the Holy Spirit enlightened him to the Gospel and created faith that trusted fully in Christ.
Comparing Lutheranism with Calvanism and Arminianism, I think the only similarity to Arminianism is the rejection of OSAS and the freedom that believers have after regeneration to either cooperate with the Spirit or turn their back on him (but even after regeneration our eternal security is based on God's election and the Spirit's continued dwelling and working within us, not on our now having the strength or goodness to remain faithful). Luther, in On The Bondage Of The Will, has been described as going right to the brink of Calvanism in describing predestination and God's sovereignty, and then taking one step back. The one step back is that God elected no one to damnation. The one step back is that God does truly want all people to be saved and he sent his Son to die for all. The one step back is that believers are free children of God, not pawns in the chessgame God is playing with himself.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 5:37:35 PM
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drfuss
Posts: 188
Joined: 3/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
We're really straying from the OP question regarding how Lutherans are unique in their view of sin or social issues, although I don't know that there's any more to say beyond repudiating the report that was mentioned.
But to answer briefly, no, regeneration itself is not a process. You cross over from death to life in an instant, but it may take a long process of contact with the Word that prepares a person. I think of Martin Luther's tower epiphany; although I'm not saying I can say this is the exact moment when he was regenerated, he writes of the day when he suddenly came to the realization that the "righteousness of God" was not what God demands of us but what he imputes to us in Christ. It was not a process of gradual regeneration but passing from death to life, and yet when faith and new life came, it shone a new light on a whole lifetime of studying God's Word. That Word had, in its time, accomplished what God desired, first leading him to despair of his sins. There was a process, God's Word was working on his heart. But he was still dead and unregenerated until the moment the Holy Spirit enlightened him to the Gospel and created faith that trusted fully in Christ.
Comparing Lutheranism with Calvanism and Arminianism, I think the only similarity to Arminianism is the rejection of OSAS and the freedom that believers have after regeneration to either cooperate with the Spirit or turn their back on him (but even after regeneration our eternal security is based on God's election and the Spirit's continued dwelling and working within us, not on our now having the strength or goodness to remain faithful). Luther, in On The Bondage Of The Will, has been described as going right to the brink of Calvanism in describing predestination and God's sovereignty, and then taking one step back. The one step back is that God elected no one to damnation. The one step back is that God does truly want all people to be saved and he sent his Son to die for all. The one step back is that believers are free children of God, not pawns in the chessgame God is playing with himself.
drfuss: Thank you very much.
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RE: are Lutherans/reformed unique? - 7/29/2008 9:48:37 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11696
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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