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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/3/2008 11:48:10 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
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quote:
You take issue with the fact that Washer knew he would not be invited back because his message would be offensvie to the audience. I don't understand why you think that is bad even though I have read all of your post I don't see why its a bad thing. Think about this when the Apostle Paul was on his missionary journeys he would go into the synagoguse and procede to preach the Gospel even though he knew the Jews would find if offensive. He would cause riots from town to town but he still went into the Synagogus to preach the Gospel. Do you think that the Apostle Paul was being deceitful by not warning the Jews that his message would be offensive ahead of time?
Hey Sue, thanks for your response. You make a good point. To answer your question, no, I do not think the Apostle Paul was being deceitful. But I think there is a key distinction between the two examples. I believe that in the Synagogues (and please correct me if I am wrong on this) there was a sort of standing "open mic" period where it was considered perfectly acceptable for someone like Paul to step up and teach or debate certain points in the law. As I pointed out above, I imagine the SBC has similar forums where Paul Washer could go to air grievances or talk about issues. Instead, he chose to do so at a youth conference and from a pulpit and setting where he could hardly be directly challenged on his points. That just doesn't seem appropriate to me.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 1:54:41 AM
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Sonrise
Posts: 150
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _phinehas_
I watched the video where Washer speaks to 5000 teens.
First of all, let me say that I agree with Washer in that the Apostle James' perspective on works vs. faith is not often made clear enough. James says basically, show me your faith without works, and I'll show you my faith by my works.
The best message I've heard on the faith vs. works issue included the following illustration:
quote:
A high-wire artist named Blondin once crossed the Niagara Falls on a tightrope. After completing his trip, he addressed the crowd that had gathered to watch. Blondin asked them, "Who believes I can return across the falls carrying a man on my back?" The crowd cheered its assent, having just seen Blondin's incredible skill. Then Blondin asked a second question, "Who will volunteer?"
The point is that there is a difference between intellectual assent and the sort of trusting faith that leads to salvation. As James points out, even the demons give intellectual assent regarding Jesus, and they tremble. I think that those people standing on the shore watching Blondin cross the Niagara honestly believed he could successfully carry someone across on his back. At the same time, I don't doubt that a person could volunteer to be carried across the Niagara on Blondin's back while still harboring a great deal of fear and doubt.
I don’t doubt that there are many who profess Christ having only given intellectual assent to the idea. I think this is a valuable teaching point that would be appropriate to Washer's audience of 5000 teens. Nor do I think that preaching this message would have resulted in Washer not getting invited back to speak again, which brings me to the first thing that really disturbed me about the video.
1) Am I the only one who finds it disturbing that Washer freely admits that the message he is preaching not only is not endorsed by those who invited him to speak, but also will be so egregious to that group that they will never ask him back? If he was forthright about this when asked to speak, I find it hard to imagine that he would have been invited at all, and if he wasn’t forthright, then why not? Does God really need His preachers to deceive others in order to get His message across? But Washer wears all of this like some kind of badge of martyrdom.
Perhaps it is not surprising, given the above, that in addressing those things that he sees as clear indicators of a lack of salvation, Washer shies away from mentioning respect for authority or having integrity in relationships. Instead, Washer focuses time and again on secular music, TV, and clothes, which brings me to my second issue.
2) As so many before have done, Washer confuses Christian culture with Christianity. Culture is not unimportant, but it is hardly a good standard, let along the best one, on which to evaluate salvation. Washer is right to point out that the Christian life will bring forth fruit, but instead of taking this opportunity to speak biblically on the Fruit of the Spirit, he addresses secular music, TV, and clothes. This is so far off base that it is flabbergasting. Certainly there are some good sermons to be preached on Christian liberty vs. license, but not only does Washer fail to demonstrate that he has a good understanding of the issue, he conflates the entire debate with soteriological issues. When it comes to being accepted by a holy God, all our righteousness is as filthy rags.
The FLDS sect has been a hot topic here in Texas lately. Their compound was raided recently on charges of child abuse. But the thing that struck me as I watched the TV coverage was how much the FLDS had successfully separated themselves from worldly culture. From conservative dress, to the forsaking of secular music and TV, to even complete physical separation from the world, these folks would rate very highly against Washer’s stated standards. Yet isn’t it fair to say that these issues are almost entirely irrelevant when discussing the FLDS and soteriology? Why do they suddenly become relevant when discussing the SBC and soteriology?
A former pastor once told the story of how a man outside a convenient store asked the pastor to buy him a pack of cigarettes. My pastor did so, and in the process led the man to Christ. The most frequent comment my pastor heard when telling that story? “You bought that man a pack of cigarettes?!?” Christian culture has a long habit of majoring on the minors, but true Christianity will keep the main thing the main thing.
3) It seemed to me that the main thing for Washer was to do everything he could to shock his audience. In pursuit of this shock value, Washer appears to sacrifice a number of potentially higher goals. Truth and clarity suffer when Washer tells his audience that God doesn’t love everyone. Shocking. Washer explains that one must hate in order to love. As an example, he says that because he loves children, he must hate abortion. But Washer appears to miss completely that the former are people, while the latter is a sin. God loves children. He also loves those who have performed abortions or who have decided to have an abortion. God loves sinners just as he hates sin.
Truth and clarity suffer again when Washer claims that the cross is not a sign of how much man is worth, rather it is a sign of how depraved man is. Shocking. Yet I’m pretty sure the biblical view is that Jesus suffered and died on the cross both because of man’s depravity and because of his worth. And there is no such thing as a carnal Christian? Shocking. I’d love to hear more clarification and biblical justification for this assertion, but I suppose that would get in the way of all the shocking.
And then there is the dramatic point where Washer derides the audience for applauding his appeal to be more like Jesus. Shocking. Is there not a single person applauding in the audience who honestly wants to be more like Christ? Yet they still don’t measure up to Washer’s standards? And it is this elitist attitude that brings me to my final point.
4) “I don’t know why you are applauding, I’m talking about you.” Not us. You. And when Washer prays at the beginning, he prays to open up “their” hearts and minds. Why not “our” hearts and minds? Furthermore, Washer makes several references to false prophets where he is apparently contrasting himself to them. This just seemed weird to me. My pastor doesn’t really spend a lot of time contrasting himself to false prophets. He just preaches the Word with truth and clarity. In the end, Washer comes across as someone who desparately wants to be recognized as a prophet. One who is unorthodox, raging a solitary war against apostasy.
It is here that we come to the kernel of what disturbs me about this video. A sorry and sad part of Christian culture lies in the repeated attempt to gain apotheosis not just by raising yourself up, but by lowering others. There is in human nature a deep desire to be significant, and in Christian circles, there is often an attempt to satisfy this desire by molding oneself into a member of some spiritual elite. If Washer were to merely content himself with preaching the truth of the word, how would he set himself above others who do likewise? How would he be special? On the other hand, if Washer has the inside track on a shocking revelation that raises the standard so that nearly everyone in his 5000-strong teen audience is in danger of hell fire, then he’s not just another preacher. Doesn’t that make him some kind of very special prophet?
Best post in the whole thread. It's times like these I wish we could give rep points. These examples reek of the scripture where the two men are praying, one a prominent religious person, the other lowly tax collector. The religious one prays, "Oh God, thank you that I'm not like that tax collector" while the tax collector yells out, "God forgive me". PW is in serious danger of becoming the first person in that passage, if he hasn't already.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 2:21:13 AM
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Sonrise
Posts: 150
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_
Indeed, it is a shame. I have witnessed some brazen acts of mockery and slander against a good minister in this thread by some people. I'm so glad that God is love and just.
This sounds identical to what the WOFers say in defense of Hinn, Olsteen, Myers, et al. Exactly the same. Attack the messenger, ignore the message.These guys have brought up valid points/concerns using scripture and a lot of you are completely ignoring it. Your angry font eludes to the possibility that you're unintentionally idolizing PW.
What's more important, what we believe or what Gods word says? In other words are we willing to admit that something we held to be true, made into dogma could be wrong, or would that destroy the bedrock in which our belief was founded? This applies to all of us, all of the time.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 2:42:48 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 623
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _phinehas_
quote:
You use the word egregious so i assume you know it's definition, and that is the word upon which the question hangs, so the answer is no.
Yes, I know what it means. I was using it in the sense of conspicuously bad or offensive.
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His message was not so egregious so the question fails on terms...
*sigh*
Did you even read what I wrote? Here it is again. Please look a little more closely at it this time. I've bolded the part you appeared to miss.
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When Washer decided to give a message that would be so egregious to those who had invited him that he was certain he would never be invited back, did he fail to respect those who had invited him enough to give them fair warning about his plans?
Washer's message was clearly egregious to those who had invited him just as Washer obviously knew it would be. That is what is at issue in the question, not whether you considered it egregious.
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Theres that word egregious again, yay, you scored a hat-trick with it!. Anyway, those werent 5 year olds he was addressing.
Indeed they weren't. On the other hand, they weren't the leaders of the SBC either were they? So what is Washer doing ripping on the SBC in front of the YOUTH? Aren't there SBC leadership meeting of some type or other where Washer could air his grievances? But instead of taking his message there, Washer decides to ambush young people at a youth conference with his condemnation. C'mon. That's like me having issues with you, but instead of approaching you about them I start bad-mouthing you in front of your kids.
--Phin
Lol, see what i mean, you dont accept the answers given, so you ask again and again and again. Look, i dont agree with you, the majority of the posters to this thread dont agree with you and your not changing any minds on this, and no one is changing yours. It's to the point of ridiculousness to keep posting on this, no one is saying anything new. Have fun.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 11:05:27 AM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
Lol, see what i mean, you dont accept the answers given, so you ask again and again and again.
When the question I asked was about the message being offensive to those who invited Washer and when your answer, "no," rests on the message not being egregious to you, then you haven't actually given an answer to my question. Instead, you've made up your own question and answered it. Why would someone do that?
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...the majority of the posters to this thread dont agree with you...
And here's the appeal to majority once again. I hear this one all the time in the evolution debate. "The majority of scientists believe..." Or, "The consensus among scientists is that..." If you look closely, you will see that it is always used as a method for avoiding addressing an issue on the merits.
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 11:59:33 AM
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Revd75961
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how can we be saved if we don't stop sinning
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 1:13:29 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 425
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:
And here's the appeal to majority once again. I hear this one all the time in the evolution debate. "The majority of scientists believe..." Or, "The consensus among scientists is that..." If you look closely, you will see that it is always used as a method for avoiding addressing an issue on the merits.
Paul: (phinehas) Do you really care about any consenus? Do you really want to deal with anything other than continually posting scorn hoping to find someone or some few to help you grind on Paul Washer?
So you dont like him, but just for the record the crosswalk members havent had a shot at you and many others of the same spirit as you dissect you and your teaching and imply false motives, false teaching and pharisaical methods....or maybe youll fit nicely into the cultist catagory.
You are quick to offer a scornful word for Paul and yet hide yourself nicely behind anonymity.
Other than a one-poster opinion building his posts upon personal preference youve not offered anything but negative opposed to the postive personal preference of others.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 1:16:53 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Revd75961
how can we be saved if we don't stop sinning
Because Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship. It is a covenant relationship, at that, not a contractual one. Even further, it is a covenant relationship for which God, in Christ, takes full responsibility to pay the price for either side failing to live up to the covenant. (See Genesis 15, where God causes Abraham to fall asleep and walks the blood path alone.)
A similar kind of covenant relationship is marriage.
How can I be married if I don't stop doing things that disappoint or hurt my wife?
It is true that you shouldn't do things that disappoint or hurt your wife. It is true that you should lay down your life for her as Christ laid down His life for the church. It is true that you should love her and cherish her as you vowed to do. As any married man can attest, it is also true that you will fall short of this. When you do fall short, your marriage will suffer. You will lose much of the joy and intimacy that such a relationship provides. It is important that you confess and reconcile the relationship so that you can move forward with growing together in a relationship where you are fully known and fully loved. (cf. Psalm 139)
If marriage were a contractual agreement, then when you fell short, the marriage would be null and void. But marriage is a covenant agreement. A covenant stands even if one side doesn't live up to the agreement. The standard is that nothing either of you do can make you not married. Now, God has made an exception to this standard, but he has done so because of human frailty. (I don't recall the ref. in the gospels where Jesus says this, but will be happy to look it up if anyone requires it.) But God does not suffer from human frailty and does not require such exceptions in His relationships.
If you understand relationships, then you understand that this kind of commitment to one another is crucial, because intimacy requires security for growth. Insecurity in a relationship or fear that the other person will abandon the relationship is an intimacy killer. This is the case because intimacy is about being fully known and fully loved, and insecurity will cause us to hide. In fact, fear together with guilt are the two main enemies of intimacy, and both are the natural result of sin. And hiding, along with hurling "or shifting the blame of oneself" are the two natural human responses to our fear and guilt, brought on by sin. (cf. Adam and Eve at the fall.) But because of God's nature, we cannot hide from Him, and no amount of hurling will ever make him forsake us, since all of our sins are covered by Christ's blood. A relationship with God is the perfect relationship for building intimacy like in no other.
Though most Christians will admit that Christianity is a relationship, not a religion, many will also turn around and treat sin as if it is a religious word. Sin is a relationship word. Actually, sin is more literally an archery term describing falling short of the mark, but when Jesus sums up all the Law and Prophets (Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself), it is this mark of love against which we fall short. In other words, sin is falling short in our relationships, not in our religion.
Of course, one could argue that there is a religious component to most successful relationships. It is true that I might want to observe our anniversary date rather religiously in order to serve my relationship with my wife. Not doing so will disappoint her and hurt her deeply. But the focus should always be on the relationship, not on the religion.
So let's try to tie all of this back to Paul Washer.
Suppose I were struggling in my relationship with my wife, doing things that were deeply offensive, upsetting, and hurtful to her. And suppose we went to see a counselor about our marriage. A wise counselor might question my commitment to my wife. They might point out that I am not loving her the way I should. They might remind me of the vows that I made to my wife on our wedding day.
But what a wise counselor will not do, is suggest that my wife is going to divorce me. Neither will they question whether my wife and I are really married. They won't do this because they know that such an approach would breed the kind of insecurity that is antithetical to rebuilding the intimacy that marriages are all about. On the contrary, they will emphasize that I am married and challenge me to live out that reality. This is exactly the approach that the Apostle Paul takes when chiding believers who are sinning. Live out the truth of your relationship!
As I said in my first post. There is an appropriate message to be preached regarding intellectual assent vs. a real and trusting faith in Christ. There is also an appropriate message to be preached regarding carnal Christians. I really think Paul Washer has the two concepts mixed up in a way that is not healthy for building the sort of intimate relationships we should have with Christ. Washer seems to think it is OK for all of us to feel very insecure in our relationships with Christ, but I contend that intimacy will suffer greatly in such an environment. Paul Washer does what no wise relationship counselor ever would, and I believe this is the case because he has taken an overly religious view of what has always been a relationship.
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 1:24:34 PM
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StephK
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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You might keep in mind that Paul Washer is primarily an itenerate evangelist. His message at conferences and revival meetings are meant to make people think because when most people go to conference they are expecting to hear from God. Unfortunately it is hard for regular pastors to come out and say what needs to be said because they often times end up losing their position.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 1:33:04 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Paul Washer and his kind stand the test of time, God vouchsafes those ministers that stand for truth. Jesus had his naysayers, Paul, John....and all the old testament prophets. They no doubt had a contingent of people who could argue their reasonings for 'false motives', false teachings, false prophecies, all because they didnt fit the mold.
Im waiting to hear of the fruit from Eric or Phinehas ministries? Im waiting to hear how God honors them above Paul Washer and has dropped the fire of God upon their offerings and not Paul W's. But I wont hold my breath. How many years have these two served in a foreign land preaching the gospel?
Someone will say, we are not comparing one against the other we are looking for 'merit' from Paul to prove his assertions and explain himself about not being asked back to the SBC mission convention. But it doesnt read like anyone from the dissenting side wants explanations, they want a piece of Paul to bring him down. This personal attack on Paul W is from two posters who havent the care to even build a profile for themselves to let us know 1 iota about themselves so we can see where these opinions come from. Who really cares about anonymous attackers comments?
Dont pretent to be fixed upon issues, doctrines and merits, because in all the posts from the dissenters little doctrine is mentioned but large amounts of "I dont think he's right cause"
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 1:38:27 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 425
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:
As I said in my first post. There is an appropriate message to be preached regarding intellectual assent vs. a real and trusting faith in Christ. There is also an appropriate message to be preached regarding carnal Christians. I really think Paul Washer has the two concepts mixed up in a way that is not healthy for building the sort of intimate relationships we should have with Christ. Washer seems to think it is OK for all of us to feel very insecure in our relationships with Christ, but I contend that intimacy will suffer greatly in such an environment. Paul Washer does what no wise relationship counselor ever would, and I believe this is the case because he has taken an overly religious view of what has always been a relationship.
--Phin
This is a first class post on carnal reasoning. Its no wonder Phin goes round and round with it.
You should have asked "should we pay taxes to Caesar?".....their carnal reasoning did them no good in trying to find fault with Jesus and it wont work with Paul W either.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 2:22:38 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
This is a first class post on carnal reasoning.
Which is easier, to dismiss what I said by asserting that it is "carnal reasoning" or to engage with what I said and demonstrate that it is "carnal reasoning?"
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 2:47:26 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
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quote:
Paul Washer and his kind stand the test of time, God vouchsafes those ministers that stand for truth...
I'm curious about what you mean here. In what way has God vouchsafed for Paul Washer that He hasn't for Joel Osteen?
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Someone will say, we are not comparing one against the other we are looking for 'merit' from Paul to prove his assertions and explain himself about not being asked back to the SBC mission convention. But it doesnt read like anyone from the dissenting side wants explanations, they want a piece of Paul to bring him down.
Right. Question the motives, not the merits of the argument.
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This personal attack on Paul W is from two posters who havent the care to even build a profile for themselves to let us know 1 iota about themselves so we can see where these opinions come from. Who really cares about anonymous attackers comments?
I imagine that anonymity makes ad hominem attacks much more difficult. Still, I've updated my profile to more closely reflect the wealth of information available in yours, though I hope you'll forgive me for not publicly disclosing my email address. Do let me know if you find anything in there that will help you further avoid addressing my points in favor of my character.
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Dont pretent to be fixed upon issues, doctrines and merits, because in all the posts from the dissenters little doctrine is mentioned but large amounts of "I dont think he's right cause"
I'm not sure I agree with your characterization here, but if you are simply saying that you'd like to know more about how I believe, then OK. I mentioned before that I've heard good, biblical messages on liberty. Here is a series of them for you.
Enjoying our Freedom in Christ
Christian Liberty, Part 1, The Black and White Issues
Christian Liberty, Part 2, The Gray Areas (part 1)
Christian Liberty, Part 3, The Gray Areas (part 2)
Christian Liberty, Part 4, The Gray Areas (part 3)
Go ahead and have a look. Who knows, maybe you'll find more ammunition for avoiding the points I've made.
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 2:49:44 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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Oh, keep in mind when listening to Lon Solomon that he is the senior pastor of a church where about 10,000 attend weekly. Surely, that kind of "fruit" proves that God has vouchsafed him and his ministry, right?
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 3:48:27 PM
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Sonrise
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As a person who has no dog in this fight, I'm honestly shocked by how much the Calvy's sound like the WOFers in regards to their idolizing of PW. As far as the sin issue, again this is right out of the WOF playbook. My dad and I go back and forth on this a lot because he still occasionally falls back into the WOF trappings.I say that we're sinners and he gets indignant and says, no we're not we're saints righteous and redeemed by Christ and to call ourselves sinners condones sin. No it doesn't, if we're walking in the Lord, daily dieing to self and spending time in the Word and praying, the Holy Spirit will convict us of our sin and it will become offensive to us because it offends the Lord. I think the problem that I and others have with PW and his ilk is that perhaps he feels that he is the mouthpiece for the HS and only he can know who is righteous enough.
Here's how I explain this; if I'm driving my car, I'm a driver. Once inside my house watching tv, I'm no longer a driver. Conversely when I sin, I am a sinner, but I'm not a sinner when I'm walking in the Lord. Hope this makes sense.
Okay, I just watched the video, if you haven't, please watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8
From Wiki:
In one of Washer's messages, the approximately one-hour sermon he delivered at the 2002 Youth Evangelism Conference in Montgomery, Alabama, USA, Washer received applause addressing what he considers to be errors in American Evangelicalism. He responded:
"I don't know why you're clapping. I'm talking about you. I didn't come to get amens. I didn't come here to get applauded. I'm talking about you."[6]
Wow, what arrogance and condescension. Perhaps, Paul they agree with you and their heart aches for those kids walking in the world. This guy is really smug, how dare he assume that the majority of them aren't really saved. Man, this guy is really prideful.
Please brothers and sisters in the Lord, I ask you not to follow man, but God and His word. Happy 4th.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 9:03:33 PM
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Eric B
Posts: 61
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quote:
I'm curious about what you mean here. In what way has God vouchsafed for Paul Washer that He hasn't for Joel Osteen?
Not to mention every other false leader or even religion that has made it big, and done a lot of work spreading their message. How about the Mormons? How about Catholicism? Or Islam?
Talk about carnal reasoning! We're being compared to Washer's achievments, as if that alone is the sign of God's favor. But that does not prove his teaching is right, any more then it does any of those others, and as far as "credentials" (a very worldly method of judging the issue), the scripture does say out of the mouth of babes!
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/4/2008 11:50:54 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
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Dear sister in Christ,
It is not my intention at all to cause you to become upset. It is not easy for me to hear someone say to me, "may God have mercy on YOUR SOUL FOR PUTTING A STUMBLINGBLOCK to someone who needs to hear the message." That is an accusation against me that I take very seriously, and despite the fact that I believe it was not warranted, I did my best to respond to you as the sister in Christ that I believe you are.
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if I remember right, you said something about God speaking thru the Holy Ghost thru a prophet, or even thru Howard Stern.
I'm sorry, Mary, but you've not remembered right. Here is the exchange once again. (It is at post #210 still if you want to go back and look at it.)
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if that preacher delivers the message THAT THE HOLY GHOST TOLD HIM TO SAY TO THE PEOPLE...
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If indeed. Tell me Mary, how does one go about knowing whether Washer (or Stern for that matter) is delivering a message "THAT THE HOLY GHOST TOLD HIM TO SAY TO THE PEOPLE?"
You made a statement that assumed that Washer delivered a message that the Holy Ghost told him to say. In response, I asked you, basically, how do you know this is the case? I didn't make a statement, I asked a question. I didn't state that Washer delivered a message that the Holy Ghost told him to, and I certainly didn't state that Stern delivered a message that the Holy Ghost told him to. Once again, I didn't make a statement at all. I asked a question. How does one go about knowing that anyone is delivering a message that the Holy Ghost told him to say to the people? Do you see now what I was asking?
Instead of answering that qestion, you turn around and accuse me of saying that the Holy Ghost could speak through Howard Stern. And now you've done it in this message as well. Do you see now that I have never claimed what you said I claimed? In addition, because I tried to defend myself against your accusation, you've now implied that I'm either a troll or a misguided believer. This is on top of having questioned my motivation, by claiming that I just don't like Washer's personality or his delivery.
Yet I am still patiently defending myself and calling you my sister in Christ, and I will continue to do so until your head feels warm from the coals.
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 1:07:21 AM
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Sonrise
Posts: 150
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _phinehas_
Dear sister in Christ,
It is not my intention at all to cause you to become upset. It is not easy for me to hear someone say to me, "may God have mercy on YOUR SOUL FOR PUTTING A STUMBLINGBLOCK to someone who needs to hear the message." That is an accusation against me that I take very seriously, and despite the fact that I believe it was not warranted, I did my best to respond to you as the sister in Christ that I believe you are.
quote:
if I remember right, you said something about God speaking thru the Holy Ghost thru a prophet, or even thru Howard Stern.
I'm sorry, Mary, but you've not remembered right. Here is the exchange once again. (It is at post #210 still if you want to go back and look at it.)
quote:
quote:
if that preacher delivers the message THAT THE HOLY GHOST TOLD HIM TO SAY TO THE PEOPLE...
quote:
If indeed. Tell me Mary, how does one go about knowing whether Washer (or Stern for that matter) is delivering a message "THAT THE HOLY GHOST TOLD HIM TO SAY TO THE PEOPLE?"
You made a statement that assumed that Washer delivered a message that the Holy Ghost told him to say. In response, I asked you, basically, how do you know this is the case? I didn't make a statement, I asked a question. I didn't state that Washer delivered a message that the Holy Ghost told him to, and I certainly didn't state that Stern delivered a message that the Holy Ghost told him to. Once again, I didn't make a statement at all. I asked a question. How does one go about knowing that anyone is delivering a message that the Holy Ghost told him to say to the people? Do you see now what I was asking?
Instead of answering that qestion, you turn around and accuse me of saying that the Holy Ghost could speak through Howard Stern. And now you've done it in this message as well. Do you see now that I have never claimed what you said I claimed? In addition, because I tried to defend myself against your accusation, you've now implied that I'm either a troll or a misguided believer. This is on top of having questioned my motivation, by claiming that I just don't like Washer's personality or his delivery.
Yet I am still patiently defending myself and calling you my sister in Christ, and I will continue to do so until your head feels warm from the coals.
--Phin
Someone also falsely accused you and Eric B of being the same person. This person has yet to apologize and ask for forgiveness. None of the concerns that you, Eric, Wintery or I have raised have even remoetly been addressed. Instead they attack you guys. Again, just like the WOF zealots.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 1:29:59 AM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
Someone also falsely accused you and Eric B of being the same person.
Indeed. One of those posts has now disappeared, evidently deleted by the person who made the original accusation upon realizing that it was obviously false. I suppose that's as much as I can hope to get as far as a retraction or apology goes.
:(
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 8:46:16 AM
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everjoyful
Posts: 124
Joined: 1/4/2007
Status: offline
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I had never heard of him until I read this thread. I don't think he was arrogant or rude.
I will watch more of his teaching in future. At last someone who will say the unpopular stuff.
< Message edited by everjoyful -- 7/5/2008 8:54:14 AM >
_____________________________
john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 11:15:49 AM
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Sonrise
Posts: 150
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everjoyful
I had never heard of him until I read this thread. I don't think he was arrogant or rude.
I will watch more of his teaching in future. At last someone who will say the unpopular stuff.
In the beginning of the video he says that he was up all night worrying. I thought worrying was a sin, aren't we supposed to cast our cares upon the Lord? Was he now in "unrepentant sin"? I'm obviously being facitious but by using his own methods to judge he would be guilty of what he accuses others of.
What's really offensive to me though is that he tells the audience that nearly all of them aren't saved. How would he even know that? Then when he talks about how most of todays youth are more concerned about following Brittney Spears instead of Christ (which I agree with), they all clap. Instead of praising God that these kids "get it" he condemns them with the following:
"I don't know why you're clapping. I'm talking about you. I didn't come to get amens. I didn't come here to get applauded. I'm talking about you."
WOW! again, what arrogant condescension. Who is PW to decide just by looking at a crowd of teens, (that has willingly chosen to attend a Christian conference, mind you) that they're not right with God. My issue isn't as much with his message (although their are some doctrinal questions) as much as this mans prideful, self righteous demeanor, as well cult -like defense on this board by his followers. They won't even attempt to address the concerns that I and others have brought up, much like the WOF devotees. we have to always keep our eyes on God, not man. Man will always let us down.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 12:30:40 PM
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everjoyful
Posts: 124
Joined: 1/4/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
quote:
ORIGINAL: everjoyful
I had never heard of him until I read this thread. I don't think he was arrogant or rude.
I will watch more of his teaching in future. At last someone who will say the unpopular stuff.
In the beginning of the video he says that he was up all night worrying. I thought worrying was a sin, aren't we supposed to cast our cares upon the Lord? Was he now in "unrepentant sin"? I'm obviously being facitious but by using his own methods to judge he would be guilty of what he accuses others of.
What's really offensive to me though is that he tells the audience that nearly all of them aren't saved. How would he even know that? Then when he talks about how most of todays youth are more concerned about following Brittney Spears instead of Christ (which I agree with), they all clap. Instead of praising God that these kids "get it" he condemns them with the following:
"I don't know why you're clapping. I'm talking about you. I didn't come to get amens. I didn't come here to get applauded. I'm talking about you."
WOW! again, what arrogant condescension. Who is PW to decide just by looking at a crowd of teens, (that has willingly chosen to attend a Christian conference, mind you) that they're not right with God. My issue isn't as much with his message (although their are some doctrinal questions) as much as this mans prideful, self righteous demeanor, as well cult -like defense on this board by his followers. They won't even attempt to address the concerns that I and others have brought up, much like the WOF devotees. we have to always keep our eyes on God, not man. Man will always let us down.
I think he explained well why he belived that many of them were decieved. Rates of divorce and abortion etc. Just to name one reason he gave.
I can't answer your argument about worry. But I don't think he claimed to be perfect at any time. Mostly what I saw was a man who was humble and God fearing who was giving a very hrd message in love.
I don't think the clapping statement was arrogant at all. I find that crowds often shout amen and clap anytime a preacher says a buzz word or something witty and I hate seeing those preachers grinning and lapping up the applause. I liked that he said that.
Time may prove my approval of him as error but based on that sermon alone I find him to be an excellent teacher.
_____________________________
john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 12:36:48 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't know why you're clapping. I'm talking about you. I didn't come to get amens. I didn't come here to get applauded. I | | |
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