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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 3:38:43 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
Your ad hom attacks on him are based on your own 'seeing into his heart'.
Wrong. I don't need to see into his heart. I have his words.
quote:
I didn't come to get amens. I didn't come here to get applauded.
Well, Brother Washer, maybe they aren't applauding you. Maybe they aren't saying "amen" to you. Maybe they are applauding being more like Christ.
Yet Washer chides them for applauding him, as if he cannot imagine they would be applauding for any other reason.
quote:
And yes I was right on about your post that I called carnal reasonings. These later posts prove it.
Again, which is easier? To assert? Or to demonstrate?
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 3:50:53 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
Eric: you are being compared to Paul because your bashing Paul. What have you got to show?
What has he got to show? In what regard? Please help define for me what the standard of evaluation is here. Is it how many people we've preached to that you want us to show? How many followers we have? How many people sit in our pews on a weekly basis? These things will prove the truth of what we are saying? Maybe you could help clear this up by answering the question you avoided earlier.
In what way has God vouchsafed for Paul Washer that He hasn't for Joel Olsteen?
I'll be honest with you. I don't put much stock in authority derived from numbers. This is basically just an appeal to consensus in another guise. It turns truth into a popularity contenst. If we used that metric, we'd probably all need to pay a lot more attention to whatever Oprah is espousing this week.
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 5:27:58 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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Dear Mary, my sister in Christ,
quote:
I am thru trying to reason with fools.
You claimed I said things which I did not, and when I patiently pointed out your error, you ignored it. You didn't retract it, nor did you apologize. Yet I still call you a sister in Christ.
You questioned my motivations instead of addressing my concerns, claiming that I just don't like Washer's delivery or his personality with no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. Yet I still call you a sister in Christ.
You've implied that I am either a troll or a misguided believer, but I still address you as my sister in Christ.
You have now called me a fool, yet I still call you a sister in Christ.
quote:
Romans 8:33: "Who shall lay anything to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth"
All who are in Christ are God's elect. You are God's elect, and if I am your brother in Christ, then I am God's elect as well. You've laid quite a few charges against me, including your statment, "may God have mercy on YOUR SOUL." And I continue to say that you are my sister in Christ.
quote:
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
You quote scriptures talking about hate, but I ask you: Who is demonstrating hate between you and me?
Please prayerfully consider Matt 5:22 before answering this.
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 6:45:21 PM
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Sonrise
Posts: 150
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Dear saints in Christ -
I am thru trying to reason with fools. But I will say these Scriptures -
John 7: 7 "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. "
Romans 8:33: "Who shall lay anything to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth"
John 15: 18-21: If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. "
Matt 5:12 :Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
Matt 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Be of good cheer, Jesus has overcome the world.
Dear saints of God, our brother Paul Washer is doing the will of His Father which is in heaven. He will give account one day to the Father of his obedience to God. Anyone who speaks a word against him will not make or break him on that great day. So do not fret, do not be distressed, the devil hates those that are preaching the Word of God. The devil hates the Word of God and the ones who bring the Word of God.
Remember this - Isaiah 52:7 How Beautiful are the Feet of those who bring good news, proclaim peace, bring glad tidings of good things, proclaim salvation, and proclaim to Zion"
Thanks Be to God. Peace unto those who are truly saved.
How disrespectful to talk to your fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord like that. Not only is it unbecoming and offensive it's more then likely against the TOS, I won't report you though. No one has called PW a fool or anything close to that yet you've resorted to calling us that name since we won't blindly follow a human. Mary, you have not addressed one concern that we've raised except to go on the defensive and attack those that have some issues with PW. What does that mean, "those who are truly saved"? Again, right out of the WOF playbook, attack those who dare to question your hero. Mary, God should be your only hero. It is identical to how the WOFers react when their idol is questioned. Please don't follow man, he will only let you down. No one, I repeat, no one is above reproach. You are way to emotional regarding this topic. Please ask yourself why.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 9:19:41 PM
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Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Eric: you are being compared to Paul because your bashing Paul. What have you got to show?
When youre put on the same scale as youve put Paul you want to jump off.
Your denunciations and complaints have no merit.
I'm not bashing Paul, and you're not comparing me to him on the same "scale". That's precisely the problem. I'm talking about his doctrine. You then begin talking about achievements. In that case, we can compare Washer to Olsteen, then. Who has lured more people into the Church? Oh, but then church growth does not equate true conversion, and Olsteen is falsely leading people, because of his doctrine. Right? I can certainly go along with that, but then that means comparing achievements or credentials means nothing, and Washer has to be judged on the same merit as Olsteen.
But this is what we see with you, IMA and the others: constant fundamental attribution errors. You attribute Washer's criticism to truth, but our criticism to "slander", oppositon to him is attributed to all those scriptures on "men shall hate the true prophets", yet the same 'men' also hate the JW's and Mormons (and many do not even recognize any real difference between the groups), yet you would not say that that makes those the true groups, and our anger is kicking against the goads, yet yours (which is much greater and more kneejerk than ours) is justified.
And now, more namecalling, and sly innuendoes about "The world vs God's elect", and who's "truly in Christ". "mocker and scorner of Paul Washer"? Perhaps the Bible should say "Believe on Paul Washer and you shall be saved".
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 9:21:26 PM
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Sonrise
Posts: 150
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Dear saints in Christ -
I am thru trying to reason with fools. But I will say these Scriptures -
John 7: 7 "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. "
Romans 8:33: "Who shall lay anything to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth"
John 15: 18-21: If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. "
Matt 5:12 :Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
Matt 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Be of good cheer, Jesus has overcome the world.
Dear saints of God, our brother Paul Washer is doing the will of His Father which is in heaven. He will give account one day to the Father of his obedience to God. Anyone who speaks a word against him will not make or break him on that great day. So do not fret, do not be distressed, the devil hates those that are preaching the Word of God. The devil hates the Word of God and the ones who bring the Word of God.
Remember this - Isaiah 52:7 How Beautiful are the Feet of those who bring good news, proclaim peace, bring glad tidings of good things, proclaim salvation, and proclaim to Zion"
Thanks Be to God. Peace unto those who are truly saved.
How disrespectful to talk to your fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord like that. Not only is it unbecoming and offensive it's more then likely against the TOS, I won't report you though. No one has called PW a fool or anything close to that yet you've resorted to calling us that name since we won't blindly follow a human. Mary, you have not addressed one concern that we've raised except to go on the defensive and attack those that have some issues with PW. What does that mean, "those who are truly saved"? Again, right out of the WOF playbook, attack those who dare to question your hero. Mary, God should be your only hero. It is identical to how the WOFers react when their idol is questioned. Please don't follow man, he will only let you down. No one, I repeat, no one is above reproach. You are way to emotional regarding this topic. Please ask yourself why.
Sonrise - "if the shoe fits, wear it" I mentioned no names, so to whom what i said describes, that is who my words are for. The verses I gave were Scritpural.
You may not have noticed, but there were some posts DELETED. This is why people may claim they did not say anything" but since I know they were there, and they now deny it, they have forced me to believe that they are a liar, and you know if a person is a liar, well, we know what Jesus said about their father.
We are not to bless those that are not saved, we are not to wish them godspeed because then we would be partakers of their deeds.. (thats also in the bible). I wish peace on the ones who are born again Christian. As does God. Sinners will never have peace until they repent, so again I am Scriptural.
You ask why I am so emotional? I have said that I am very angry that people would slander a man of God. there are people who come here who enjoy slandering true Christians. I am just as angry as any of the other people in the Bible who "be angry but sin not, dont let the sun go down on your wrath" There is a place for anger, Jesus had anger when he saw His Father's house be turned into a den of thieves, Apostle Paul when he talked to the Galatians and called them bewitched.
I am not a WOF, neither do i proscribe to WOF ministers, and yes I am offended when someone tries to tear down someone who is doing God's work. Of course, Christ's church cannot nor will not be torn down since no one can, it will always stand.
I do keep my eyes on Jesus, and I also have respect and love for the ministers God sends in our path providentially,, same as the various people had lots of love for the Apostle Paul, i.e. when Paul thanks them for thier love (Phillipians for example)... who gave Apostle Paul sacrificially, and other such cases where the churches he set up deeply loved him and would have sacrificed their life for trhem.. I will have to do a study on that... but in any case, remmeber the Apostle John "whom Jesus loved" who rested his head on Jesus' chest at the last supper? so in the New Tetament we see many places where the men of God were so loved and so dear to the churches they set up for example.
I believe I am within scriptural guidelines as I have spoken, judge me by my fruits, in the meanwhile judge other people if they have fruit of the Spirit. We are not required to be sweet and syrupy nicey all the time, but to sometimes take a stand for the true Word of God.
I could make a whole another essay on how God hates the wicked and how they are in slippery places.. (its in one of the Psalms if you need me to look it up).
Again, peace and joy to all those who are truly in Christ Jesus.
From dictionary.com:
slan·der Audio Help /ˈslændər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[slan-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
3. Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.
–verb (used with object)
4. to utter slander against; defame.
–verb (used without object)
5. to utter or circulate slander.
Using the actual definition can you please show me one post where one person has done this? You're calling out people saying that they might not be Christians simply because they/we raised some concerns about PW? Mary, you are, whether you realize it or not elevating PW into a deity. He is not above reproach and correction in light of scripture, would you agree with that? Anyway, it's not my intent to cause you distress and this thread seems to be doing just that. It was my intent and others here as well to simply shed some light on some issues that we have and discuss them civily with brothers and sisters in the Lord(which, by the way, you've shamefully chosen to question). You have shown no evidence whatsoever that you are capable of such dialogue so I will refrain, from henceforth discussing this topic with you. It does sadden me that some choose to question ones Christianity simply because of a disagreement over a human. Mary, have you heard of this phrase, "The Joy of the Lord"? God bless, Sonrise
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 9:34:14 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6220
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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Sonrise,
Forgive me if my question has been covered in the 11 pages of this thread - but is your issue with Paul Washer about his style and or speaking to a crowd and saying that they are all sinners and should not be applauding?
I guess I am asking if there are serious issues here with Paul Washer in terms of the core essentials of Christianity, as we have with WoF individuals. If so, can you please list them?
Again, if my questions are dumb because they have been already covered please just let me know and I will gladly read every single post of this thread, thank you brother.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 10:06:57 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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My dear sister in Christ,
quote:
You may not have noticed, but there were some posts DELETED. This is why people may claim they did not say anything" but since I know they were there, and they now deny it, they have forced me to believe that they are a liar, and you know if a person is a liar, well, we know what Jesus said about their father.
As far as I know, there has only been one post deleted on this thread, and that is the post made by faithfulservant where he claimed Eric B and I are the same person. The post where I first mentioned Howard Stern is still there for all to see. It is post #210. I already pointed you to this exact post in my post #247.
Now, in addition to calling me a fool (did you read Matt 5:22?), you have called me a liar, and have even implied that my father is the devil. I have not deleted any of my posts. None of my posts have been deleted. The post on which you based your accusation is there for anyone to see who cares to. And I have not lied. Instead, it is you who slander me with no cause whatsoever.
I ask you again, Mary, my sister in Christ, who is the one engaging in hateful speech in our interchanges?
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 10:18:33 PM
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Sonrise
Posts: 150
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Sonrise,
Forgive me if my question has been covered in the 11 pages of this thread - but is your issue with Paul Washer about his style and or speaking to a crowd and saying that they are all sinners and should not be applauding?
I guess I am asking if there are serious issues here with Paul Washer in terms of the core essentials of Christianity, as we have with WoF individuals. If so, can you please list them?
Again, if my questions are dumb because they have been already covered please just let me know and I will gladly read every single post of this thread, thank you brother.
Earthless,
fair questions, as usual. As far as doctrine, it would be wrong of me to speak about that because I'm ill informed on where he stands on many issues. My specific complaints/issues (what have you?) are the fact that PW comes across as very presumptuous, not to mention condescending when he tells the audience that most of them aren't saved (how would he know?) and then chides them for applauding, by saying that he was talking to and about them and he didn't come for applause. Again, did it ever occur to PW that these kids applauded because they too have a heart that aches for their peers that are more concerned with Brittney Spears then Jesus? Also, why the assumption that they were applauding for him? Did it ever occur to PW that they were applauding his message? This came across as very arrogant, smug and extremely self righteous. I do have a problem when anyone claims and/or appears to be the grand arbiter as to who is saved and who isn't. We all have a direct line to God, not just PW. I didn't see the whole video, but someone either EricB or Phineas said that PW says that it's wrong to say that God doesn't hate some people and gave the example that God loves people but he hates abortion. Abortion isn't a person, it's the sin itself. God still does love the abortionist and the woman who had the abortion. Now the Bible does give examples where God turned some people over to Satan because of their wickedness, but that wasn't what PW was talking about here. Correct me if I'm wrong but basic Calvy theology is that all sin must be repented of or the person isn't saved. Well in the opening of the video, PW said that he was up all night worrying. Isn't worrying a sin? Aren't we to cast our cares upon the Lord? Again, I'm being a bit facetious, but not really. Applying his method, where does it end?
Now, granted this video is 6 years old. To paraphrase you Earthless, "Is their video proof of PW repenting and asking for forgiveness of his pride and arrogance?" You have applied this standard numerous times to the WOFers. Now, I realize that it usually has to do with their message but if you deny that almost as many posts are equally critical of their pride and arrogance as their doctrine then I'd say that your disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst. It strikes me funny that all of a sudden when the doctrine hits too close to home people use a different standard in which to measure. Reading some of the responses here, there have been personal attacks and very mean spirited words. Again, right from the WOF playbook. Do you think that it's right for other posters to question our Christianity simply because we questioned a man that they idolize? Integrity is integrity even if it hits too close to home. Sorry for the long winded answer but I ask you to please look at the 1st few minutes of the video and consider my points in regards to it before responding.
PS. I agree with PW that we as a body, need to get really right with God and not so in love with the world. This is in no way the issue. Sonrise
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 11:22:15 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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Dear sister in Christ,
quote:
God bless those that are truly saved.
Thanks you for your blessing, if not for your apology. God bless you as well.
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/26/2008 4:13:34 PM
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hargisP
Posts: 1
Joined: 7/26/2008
Status: offline
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Lynne should go through the Gospels and see how many "if's" Jesus uses in His messages, about entering into Heaven.
Too many people want to just take the salvation by faith and do nothing else.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 9/2/2008 3:14:59 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
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For all those who don't seem to understand that Washer is not a works salvationist please listen to this sermon.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=6190762842
Secondly study 1 John.
Lastly a lot of people base base an entire doctrines off 1 chapter in Romans, read the chapter carefully and the ones adjacent.
Define faith. Faith is an action...
How can you say you have faith in the security of a bridge if you don't drive over it... Otherwise its just talk.
Blind faith is not exactly knowing the engineer, yet crossing the bridge anyway. Faith like a child is telling a child the bridge is safe walk over it and the child will not question you.
I can say I have faith in God all I want, but without action it is dead.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 9/4/2008 2:04:47 AM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
Joined: 9/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lynne123
The message sounds like you need to "do" to receive salvation. Sounds like, you have to live righteously to obtain your salvation. If that's the case, then it's up to us on how righteous we live that we receive our salvation - then doesn't that mean that Jesus died in vain?
Doesn't sound right.. isn't God's love unconditional? He loved sinners, that's why He sent His Son to die for sinners (Romans 5:6-9)
Maybe Washer should take a look at Romans 10:9-11 first:
"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”"
Just because we don't live as righteous as God wanted us to doesn't mean we would lose our salvation or we should question our salvation.
It's a good message to get people to live righteously, but he misinterpreted the verses he used - he just sent 5,000 kids questioning about their salvations.
You continue to repent so that you can live righteously with God, so that God can pour out His blessings onto you in abundance. If you don't live righteously, how can God bless us? It doesn't mean you don't lose your salvation.
Let's take Matthew 7:13-
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Narrow way to life, not to heaven. Life = living abundantly in God's blessing for your health, relationships, finances, etc.
Matthew 7:15 -
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Jesus is referring to prophets here.
Matthew 7:21 -
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
There's a reason why Jesus said "kingdom of heaven" and "My Father in heaven"
- how come Jesus didn't use "My Father in kingdom of heaven"?
- kingdom of heaven is different from heaven.. because look at Matthew 6:9-10:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
How can heaven come to earth if heaven = kingdom of heaven?
Let me start a point by point rebuttal to this heresy. I am just sad that the person who posted it is no longer active on this site.
1) Brother Paul is not saying that you are saved according to your works. What He is saying is this: If you profess that you know Christ you should know that He is commanding you to repent and for as long as you are living a life-style contrary to that you are rebeling against God and you are probably not saved. I ask everyone to take a look at the whole book of 1st John, especially 1John 1:6; 2:4&9; 3:4-9; etc. This is not talking of a person who sined, but confess and repents of that sin. This is talking of a continual life style.
2) Paul Washer is not an Arminian, he is a "Historical-Calvinist". 1st this guy say that God's love is unconditional and He sent His Son for sinners. That is true, but you need to know that God is also a just God and He demonstrated His justice through the Cross that whosoever Believes should not perish (but it didn't say would not perish).
This means that the law forces us to no other place for salvation but faith in Christ Jesus, but Jesus has commanded everyone everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30 & John 8:11).
Which leads us to Rom 10:9, telling us that we must confess him as Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead to be saved. But the next verse tells us that our faith is supposed to lead us to righteousness, and I say otherwise it is fake based on innumerable scripture verses in the New Testament. (Ex : Rom 6:1-2, 1Cor 6:9-11, 2Cor 5:14-17, 2Cor 6:16-7:1, Gal 6:13,16-25, Eph 5:5-6, ....... , Rev 21:8
What I need all of you to remember is that these things were written to those who profess faith in Christ as a warning, because deceptive times will com and it has come and people are twisting the words of God to suit their sins. Apostle Paul warned his readers of of such disceptions in 1Cor 6:9, Eph 5:6, .... He also said that all the warnings that he is sending to to those who call themselves Christians in 1Cor 5:12-13.
So, I will repeat his words, I beg you "Let no man deceive you."
3) The repentance to be blessed message would be a joke, if it wasn't leading many to HELL. The bible makes it clear that we are to repent because Jesus is Lord, He has commanded those who come to Him for salvation to repent and He has appointed a day which He will Judge the whole world in righteousness. Take a look at Acts 17:30-31, Rom 2:5-11, 2Thessalonians 1:8-9, Matthew 7:21-23.
2Thessalonians 1:8 is a solemn warning to those who beleive they can pick and choose what they want Jesus to be (Jesus to be Savior but not Lord). It makes it clear that those who do not Obey are going to suffer the same faith as those who do not believe.
I hope you don't think that I hate or dislike you that is why I am saying these, but those who love you are the ones who will tell you the truth, especially on matters as important as eternity
4) This issue of "You will know them by their fruits" that He is trying to remove from applying to himslef is funny to me. This is because not ony is Jesus talking about False-Prophet, but He is talking about all humanity. Take a look at Matthew 13:23 and Luke 3:7-9, & 6:43-46, ........
Therefore you this guy who tried to nollify God's word by looking for loop holes aroud it should know that God has told you exactly what He requires of you and if you don't obey Him, you have Him to answer to.
5) This guy tries to say that Heaven is different from the Kingdom of Heaven/God/Christ. This is absolut falsehood. The definition if the Kingdom of God is a place where God is ruling. That is why the bile says in Luke 7:20-22, that the Kingdom is within us (believer). This is because the Lord is ruling an reigning in our hearts and lives.
In addition, the bible uses the word heaven, kingdom of heaven, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Christ and the Kingdom interchangeably. So they are inseperable.
This point is clear through reading and understanding (not twisting) many scriptures. All you have to do is go to biblegateway.com and type in the word "Kingdom", and start reading from the New-Testament.
I would like to call your attention to Matthew 19:23-25:
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
notice in the previous passage of scipture the kingdom of God, of Heaven and Salvation were used interchangeably.
I would also like to call your attention to Mark 9:47. Which states
"...It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire."
This makes it clear that you either enter the kingom of God/heaven or enter into eternal judgement.
In conclusion, it is clear that this person who wrote this is decieved and attempting to propergate his deception on others. I would like to advice everybody not to be ignorant of Satan's devices because that was the same thing he did to Eve in the garden and attempted to do to our Lord in the wilderness. Decieving by twisting the truth, mixing the truth with a whole lot of lies, out right lying and coming to the same conclusion. Trying to get you to live a lifestyle of sin against God, so that you may be eternally Judge. I beg you please don't fall into that trap.
I would like to finally make my statement about salvation coming from John 8:1-12, which is:
I (you) have broken every last law of God, I deserve Hell, Satan accuses me before the father, but Jesus rebuke him. This is because He paid for my sins. Now He does not condemn me and He commands me to obey Him with His help. So, I will repent because I appreciate His salvation, because He is Lord, and because He commands me to. He has also made it clear that He will not save those who are not ready to stop their rebellion against God (Matthew 7:2-21-23).
This is repentance when you surrender to God and let Him know that you are not able to live for Him by yourself and you need Him to save you from yourself and your sins.
You also keep on crying to Him until He does the work of regeneration in you.
Thank you and I pray that I will see all who reads this on the otherside there we will Love, Worship, and Adhore Him for eternity
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 9/4/2008 2:54:10 AM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
Joined: 9/4/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Sonrise,
Forgive me if my question has been covered in the 11 pages of this thread - but is your issue with Paul Washer about his style and or speaking to a crowd and saying that they are all sinners and should not be applauding?
Earthless,
fair questions, as usual. As far as doctrine, it would be wrong of me to speak about that because I'm ill informed on where he stands on many issues. My specific complaints/issues (what have you?) are the fact that PW comes across as very presumptuous, not to mention condescending when he tells the audience that most of them aren't saved (how would he know?) and then chides them for applauding, by saying that he was talking to and about them and he didn't come for applause. Again, did it ever occur to PW that these kids applauded because they too have a heart that aches for their peers that are more concerned with Brittney Spears then Jesus? Also, why the assumption that they were applauding for him? Did it ever occur to PW that they were applauding his message? This came across as very arrogant, smug and extremely self righteous. I do have a problem when anyone claims and/or appears to be the grand arbiter as to who is saved and who isn't. We all have a direct line to God, not just PW. I didn't see the whole video, but someone either EricB or Phineas said that PW says that it's wrong to say that God doesn't hate some people and gave the example that God loves people but he hates abortion. Abortion isn't a person, it's the sin itself. God still does love the abortionist and the woman who had the abortion. Now the Bible does give examples where God turned some people over to Satan because of their wickedness, but that wasn't what PW was talking about here. Correct me if I'm wrong but basic Calvy theology is that all sin must be repented of or the person isn't saved. Well in the opening of the video, PW said that he was up all night worrying. Isn't worrying a sin? Aren't we to cast our cares upon the Lord? Again, I'm being a bit facetious, but not really. Applying his method, where does it end?
Mr Sonrise,
When was the last time you read the Gospels. The words that Jesus spoke to people seemed very very very condescending. This was not without reason. Christ was trying to test their humility. Also, Elisha in his dealing with Naaman seemed condescending (2kings 5:9-15). Haven't you also read about the way that the prophets-of-old spoke, specifically John the baptist. he spoke in such a harsh and condescending manner to those who came to be baptised by him and even to the king that it costed him his life. Jesus didn't say he did wrong, he instead commended him.
So your arguement is invalid according to biblical standards. Grant-it, that is not my style or I guess I just don't have the gutts.
Also, don't you know people, that we tend to think that this message is for someone else, "Me, I'm okay, I don't need it." As a results satan blocks our minds to the words that can transform our lives. He had to say those words so that people could know that it applies to them. I applaud Brother Washer for having the gutts to preach such a message irrespective of what Men thinks. It is God that we need to please and obey in our preaching. I hope that you will listen to that message (along with his message on Justification) and let the Holy Spirit minister to you through them. I am not saying it to you alone, but I say it to myself and others. I have alot of Brother Washer's, Bro. Comfort and Pastor MacArthur's teachings to help bring me back on track when I start to stray and lust after unGodliness. I also listen to Olsteen when I need som encouragement. So we all need some balance in what we listen to.
his messages are on sermonaudios.com or sermonaudio.com
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 9/13/2008 5:34:14 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
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I wouldn't be listening to Olsteen That is scary. The bible says to stay away from false prophets. Am I saying that Olsteen is a false prohpet. Well he believes in best life now / prosperity... Completely unbiblical. This life is about Jesus... This creation was for Jesus and we are here to glorify him.
Be very careful.. If you are going to be testing the spirit, please test the spirit on Olsteen's preaching. I have been reading through 1 john, romans, and corinthians and Paul Washer is on track.
For those who don't think Washer preaches on Grace, see this sermon http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/6190762842/6190762842.mp3
And: http://mp3.sa-media.com/media/830755041/830755041.mp3
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 9/14/2008 12:48:28 AM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
Joined: 9/4/2008
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I think you are rigth that Paul Washer is far more on track than Olsteen. What I like about Olsteen is that he preaches encouragement. When someone is down, I think they need some encouragement. Even in Jesus' ministry (Isaiah 61:1-4), His ministry was also about encouraging people. It is clear that Jesus did preach clearly against sin and that anyone who continues to live a lifestyle of sin will not be saved, but he still encouraged.
Grant it, if all that is preached in Olsteen's church is all that is shown on TV, a person can attend his church all their lives and not know what God expects of them. Not know that God demands absolute faith in Jesus Christ and in believing Jesus Justifies us and commands us to repent and change our actions (John 8:10-11, Acts 17:30, 2Timothy 2:19). However those who will not yield to His Lordship, He will not rescue on Judement day. He will spit them out of His mouth and they will face God alone without Christ's righteousness clothing them(Matthew 7:21-23, 1st Corinthians 6:9, Galathians 5:21, Ephesians 5:5, Revelations 3:16, ....)
If Bro. Joel is not telling his flock these truths, he is doing them a great dis-service and many of them will go to hell. As a result he (Olsteen) will have to answer to God on judgement day, where he will receive greater condemnation. I think his gospel presentation is absolutely wrong (just repeat these words). If it were that easy, I think Jesus and the apostles would have used that stategy, instead of commanding people Believe and repent.
I also don't agree with him on prosperity, but I don't think he preaches hardcore prosperity but he encourages people to trust God and do better. You do know that the ministry of encouragement is mentioned as one of the minstries that the Holy Ghost gives people in the church. I don't however think that is the only thing that is to be preached in a church. Just as I don't think Salvation is the only thing to be preached in a church. (eventhough preaching salvation alone is better that preaching encouragement alone)
I wish our churches weren't divided into factions as they are today where Bro. Washer could go to Bro. Olsteen's church and preach salvation, and Bro Olsteen could go to Bro Nublit (Bro. Washer's pastor) church and preach encouragement.
Then we will have balanced message (the full counsel of God).
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 9/14/2008 9:37:24 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2791
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
I wish our churches weren't divided into factions as they are today where Bro. Washer could go to Bro. Olsteen's church and preach salvation, and Bro Olsteen could go to Bro Nublit (Bro. Washer's pastor) church and preach encouragement.
But one gets encouragement from the full counsel of God, not half-truths.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 9/15/2008 1:30:09 AM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
Joined: 9/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
But one gets encouragement from the full counsel of God, not half-truths.
I hope that you read all that I wrote before commenting. I said that I don't know if all that is preached in his church is what they show on TV. In addition, we as christians don't need to be calling eachother names. Maybe this factionism will reduce.
I know this, Bro. Olsteen doesn't seem to be called into pastoring. He is called into ministry of encouraging. People are however not able to hear multiple view points because of the way churches are setup today, where there is only one teacher instead of multiple teaching elders as they had them in the 1st century church.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 9/15/2008 12:06:40 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
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Just my opinion, but I don't think Olsteen should preach/teach/encourage, or whatever you want to call it, in any church. He "encourages" spiritually dangerous doctrine.
This life is not about best life now and not about prosperity and self fullfillment. It is about Jesus, the Glory of God. We are NOT COMMANDED TO GET RICH, BUT TO GIVE THE VERY SHIRT OFF OUR BACK FOR OTHERS EVEN IF IT MEANS BEING POOR. We are to lay our lives down for our brothers as Jesus did for us.
Washer gets not asked back into churches because he preaches the truth and people don't like it; whereas Olsteen is accepted by the masses because his message is glorify self (everyone loves self! the God of our age). (Olsteen teaches: what you can get from God and that is WRONG. It should be what God wants FROM you).
I agree that we can ask anything from God as long as we are in the will of God and what we ask is in line with the Will of God. Asking for self is not what God wants... Asking for others falls in the will of God. He already knows what we need before we ask. The lord says (paraphrased) "I take care of the birds in the sky and they don't worry, are you not more greater then they?".
I agree, people need to be lifted up, but people need to be lifted up by the holy spirit and the word of God and fellow brothers and sisters. They also need to be rebuked as encouragement too. Not a goodlooking pastor with a chizzled chin, hollywood smile and a soft voice telling them being earthly poor is not what God wants in your life, when in the bible it says it's harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then it is for a richman to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Narrow is the way and narrow is the gate. Olsteen fills stadiums... I would be weary. Test the spirit!
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 9/16/2008 1:07:13 AM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
Joined: 9/4/2008
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I understand what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree with some of it. Olteen doesn't really preach that much properity in the sermons of his that I have seen. I think that at times you have to encourage people to do better with their lives and trust God to help them along the way. Some truely born-again people have defeatist mentality and they believe that nothing will go well with them. These people need encouragement and building up. Even looking at what Apostle Paul said about his encouraging people to work and have enough to give and support others. In the bible, he also rebuked some young men for laziness and idleness.
I however, disagree with him on "having your best life now." But all in all, he encourages some who need it.The only problem I have with Bro. Olteen is that he seem to think that all people need is encouragement. But I think that if a person is on the path of sin leading to destruction, they should be discouraged. So, I think his gospel presentation is absolutely pittiful bordering on heresy. As I said in a previous post, a person can go to his church all their lives and not know what God want of them, therefore they will continue in their lack of Absolute Faith in Jesus, so not obeying Him in His call to repentance and go to Hell.
However, I still wouldn't be calling him names. I would rather pray for him that he sees the light. Also, I don't think the ministries of Bro. Washer and Olsteen are mutually exclusive. I actually think they are complementary.
Take a look at Jeremiah 1:10 - it is clear that God wants people He can use to root out sin, falsehoods and unrighteousness. But He also wants people that He can use to build and plant and lift up.
So, we need to stop all these name calling and start on what we are called to do. Call people to repentance and build them up emotionally after that
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 9/16/2008 1:31:00 AM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
Joined: 9/4/2008
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Don't think that I am chicken in "calling a spade, a spade." I don't have a problem calling people false Prophets if they rise to the level of truly false prophet.
I beleive the mark of a false prohet are
A) a person who encourages others to disobey God and sin, so go to Hell
B) a person who preaches really heretical doctrine, that denies Jesus as Christ (eg Jehovah's withnesses, Momons, Islam's Muhammad, etc)
C)etc...
Not a person who preaches abhorent, disgusting or disagreeable doctirnes. If you look at what has happened in Christiandom over the years, people have taken nonessential doctrines and turned it into essential ones (eg Predestination, Calvinism, Arminianism, etc)
The most essential doctrine was written in Acts 20:21 - Faith in Jesus Christ and repentance towards God (turning from sin, self-righteousness, etc to God and Jesus' rigtheousness & HIs grace).
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 9/17/2008 7:08:29 PM
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dyluck
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