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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/28/2008 12:42:08 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
These two verses make "limited attonment" seem incorrect imo.
< Message edited by AboundinginHisLove -- 4/28/2008 12:49:24 PM >
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/28/2008 9:02:03 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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quote:
You can count me in. I was checking out a website that someone posted on one of the sub forums. On the said websites forums they had a topic for false prophets. I checked it out and came to find out that it was about Paul Washer and they were disecting him for preaching a works based salvation. Here is the link if anyone would care to discuss. http://www.predestinarian.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4690
Personally I think they are taking what he is saying out of context and basing it off of pieces of sermons or just one sermon.
Hello Propitiation:
There are some folks who dont listen well enough to an sermon to determine whats being preached.
Paul W. does not preach works, never has. Paul W. preaches grace. If youve listened to his sermons on sin, judgment, holiness, forgiveness you would know that Paul W. is not trying to get folks saved by works.
Paul W. in numerous occasions confronts so-called Christians with the examination of their works. He calls them to discern their attitudes, their works, their fruitfulness. This is all sound biblical teaching and done by the Apostle Paul with the authority of God behind him.
There is a loon on youtube that takes bits of his sermons and calls Paul W. a works preacher, false, etc etc. Dont listen to that guy, he is off base.
Some folks are so confused about the salvation that is in Christ. Paul W. attacks easy believism via 'the sinners prayer'. If youre one of the folks that thinks a sinners prayer and an altar call or a walk to the youth minister grants you salvation....you might not be saved( speaking rhetorically here). Paul W. is attempting to build their faith upon the revelation of God's word.
But the reality is people do build upon false foundations, Paul W. is attempting to destroy every foundation not build upon Christ. If Paul W. can show you that your faith is misplaced or your life is nothing but moralism...you need to be saved.
But some folks who cannot interpret the scriptures, run towards grace as if grace is not the seed bed upon which good fruit and spiritual good works are to spring from.
I hope this helps. Pay no attention to the nay sayers.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/28/2008 9:18:57 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
These two verses make "limited attonment" seem incorrect imo.
Hello abounding:
All Christians limit the atonement. The universalist, whom I wouldnt call Christian dont limit it, but dont adhere to scripture either.
You limit it two ways....
1. By the extent of the atonement....in other words..God has chosen to save an elect.
2. By the effect of the atonement...in other words ..God saves only those who believe.
Since you limit it by effect, conditionally obtained by 'believing'. You also believe in limited atonement.
The problem arises when these positions are held forth in all their truth.
The one limits the scope of the atonement to the 'called, chosen, few' that God has determined to save.
The other limits the scope of the atonement to the power of a mans will, repentance, agreeableness, persistence, good heartedness.
In the one, God will save a numberless mulitude of people because he has determined to obtain for himself a chosen generation of people that He wants to reveal his love to.
In the other, God must be passive, awaiting the permission of the sinner to give God his due faith and repentance so that God can now enter that persons life with permission.
The one lays its hope upon God calling and chosing an elect, giving them grace, faith and repentance to believe.
The other lays its hope upon man answering God, mans will, mans perseverance, mans willingness to humble himself and mans forsaking all other gods.
The one is assured that God intends to save a numberless mulititude.
The other is assured of nothing but the vain hope that man with enmity in his heart,
will change his spots and become willing so God can have a chance.
The one, God is actively seeking the sinner to save them.
The other, God is passively waiting for someone to believe upon him.
The one, God is the initiator of salvation the author and finisher of our faith.
The other, God is waiting for a man to give him room, to give him a place in his heart.
I hope you can see there is a great difference between the two as it is broken down.
and yes, they both limit the atonement.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/29/2008 1:18:37 AM
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Sammy_S
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
These two verses make "limited attonment" seem incorrect imo.
The 2peter quote speaks of the christians that Peter was speaking to in context if you study it.The 1John quote is John writing to his readers and stating that not only did christ die for those people but also others of the whole world.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/29/2008 8:21:50 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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It doesn't say others in the world, it says "THE WHOLE WORLD". The whole world there in Greek is holos which means all, altogether, whole. Also in 2 pet "us" means you, refering to the reader. Also if you go back and read Romans 9 where most people get their belief on Tulip (which Calvin didnt come up with), you find he is talking to the Israelites, he is trying to teach them that its not of them (law) it's of Christ now. He is the finisher, he is showing them that he chose Jacob (2nd born) not esau (1st born) which in their custom would have been the greater. He was showing them he can chose who he wants its not up to them. And the hardening of the heart goes on today when people reject Christ. As a result of rejection of the Gospel ones heart does get hardened. This is just my opinion, I have really studied and chewed on this stuff a while, I do feel that both exist to a certain degree. But not to the extent that some take it, I am speaking of both sides of the spectrum. I feel the only way someone can become is a true Christian is through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. I dont think people just decide. I just don't agree that Christ died for a certain few and the others were just made to go to hell. I don't understand why he would have all the warnings esp in revelation. To me it just contradicts the a lot of other verses in the bible. I mean if man has no choice in the matter, why are we commanded to carry out the "GREAT" Commission if it doesn't really matter in the end.
< Message edited by AboundinginHisGrace -- 4/29/2008 3:14:51 PM >
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/9/2008 1:05:48 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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I really am enjoying paul washer's sermons, which i just discovered lately. paul Washer does NOT PROMOTE A SALVATION OF WORKS.
He promotes salvation of grace, and SANCTIFICATION will produce works AFTER salvation.. not as a part of salvation.
he also promotes the fact that a lot of people think they are saved by just saying a prayer and they think thats all they have to do.
but if you are saved, your new life in Christ WILL produce holiness, and it is a constant battle you will be fighting the rest of your saved life, because we are continually being conformed into the image of Christ!
he also does not promote legalism, but holiness of which will be a naturally occurring consequence of your salvation.. just read the Book of James for more info.
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I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/9/2008 4:30:17 PM
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lw9
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Totally agree, IMA_CHRISTIAN, and it's SO good to see you back here!!
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/9/2008 4:41:33 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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HIYA! and remember about a year ago we were defending the Word of God?? :)
I dont care what anyone's experience is,, the Word of God rules!!!! Im still attending a Reformed Church where doctrine is #1!!!!
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I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/9/2008 4:44:06 PM
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earthless
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* earthless approves of Paul Washer's teachings/sermons...
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/9/2008 4:51:47 PM
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lw9
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quote:
IMA_CHRISTIAN: HIYA! and remember about a year ago we were defending the Word of God?? :)
I dont care what anyone's experience is,, the Word of God rules!!!! Im still attending a Reformed Church where doctrine is #1!!!!
PRAISE GOD!!  What a blessing to have you back here.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/13/2008 1:07:29 PM
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narnia
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Salvation is not based on works. Sanctification on the other hand is work and is based on works. You can not become sanctified with out working at it.
And sometimes in the Bible salvation is equalled with sanctification:
Phl 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
When we go to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, we have numerous entries for salvation-this is one of them:
"(c)...this present experience on the part of believers is virtually equivalent to sanctification;"
The two are not always mutually exclusive.
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Domestic Diva, according to our Forums Mother!
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/14/2008 3:55:39 PM
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Propitiation
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Question: What do you think of Paul Washer?
Answer: Paul Washer could make a better choice of his home church--in my opinion. 
What's the deal with making these type of statements without explaining it?
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/14/2008 3:57:16 PM
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Propitiation
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Question: What do you think of Paul Washer?
Answer: Paul Washer could make a better choice of his home church--in my opinion.
What is his church?
Southern baptist church
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/14/2008 7:06:35 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Anyone want to tell me what's wrong with Paul's church, the Southern Baptist Church? The only things I know about them is that some of pastors of the individual churches will not accept another pastor's baptism, I think they are reformed, and I've known a few good people who were of that religion.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/16/2008 5:23:59 PM
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wintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Anyone want to tell me what's wrong with Paul's church, the Southern Baptist Church? The only things I know about them is that some of pastors of the individual churches will not accept another pastor's baptism, I think they are reformed, and I've known a few good people who were of that religion.
Covaan_Meshuga, Paul's messages are good and Southern Baptists are fine. That post is a stand-alone that I never intended to explain. Thanks for your concern. Again, I will not explain it on the board. That's all I have to say about it.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/16/2008 10:06:19 PM
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StephK
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I like Jeff Noblit's teaching. So far it's been spot on from what I can tell based on the media on his site. He is an expository teacher so we need more like him to be honest.
< Message edited by StephK -- 6/16/2008 10:44:12 PM >
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Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/17/2008 2:51:23 AM
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Stronger2day
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Wow! He is GREAT. The comments about the salvation prayer were helpful. On a mission I was on 2 years ago, I was so frustrated becuase the leaders seemed more interested in the total number of 'saved' that could be reported to headquarters than the effectiveness of our time with each person. Do I believe some MAY have made true professions, yes- do I believe that we planted a seed for many people-yes, but I also believe that some just said the prayer to be 'polite' to the foreigners. It never sat well with me- but I assumed I was wrong.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/18/2008 1:24:43 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Earthless, can you give me a SHORT rundown of Southern Baptist beliefs -- like how they are different from other Baptists?
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/18/2008 9:00:06 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Earthless, can you give me a SHORT rundown of Southern Baptist beliefs -- like how they are different from other Baptists?
The SBC website has the following HERE
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/20/2008 11:33:12 AM
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jbow
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quote:
He promotes salvation of grace, and SANCTIFICATION will produce works AFTER salvation.. not as a part of salvation.
I think you have hit the nail on the head.
I have been thinking a lot about this lately. I think one of our problems in the Church of today is that we lump justification and sanctification together and call it salvation and never bother to teach the difference. Justification is by grace through faith. It is a gift and it makes us right with God, it breaks down the wall of seperation. Sanctification has to do with our works, (but is also a free gift), whether we present our bodies as instruments of righteousness or unrighteousness. Our body is where we birth either righteousness or evil into the world and that birthing is determined by whether we are walking in the Spirit or in the flesh. We all have our seasons, as it were. The times when we struggle and sometimes fail, and walk in the flesh. It does not mean we are not justified, it means we are not walking in the spirit, in our sanctification...
To just call it all "salvation" may be technically correct but leads to some confusion because people begin to think that our our works are associated with our justification instead of our sanctification.
That a Christian can walk in the flesh is a fact... but it is also a fact that a Christian should not walk in the flesh and indeed does not have to walk in the flesh if we would just believe... if we will just be the believers we claim to be regarding not only justification but sanctification.
J
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"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/20/2008 12:32:30 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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Well praise be to God,, the Holy Ghost has taught me the difference.
equally disconcerting and often misunderstood is the doctrine of ETERNAL SECURITY.
"he that hath begun a good work in you will FINISH IT"
Eternal security means that we TRUST Jesus to fulfill what He promised us about having assurance in Him, (as long as we endure to the end and other such Scriptures)....
it is NOT A LICENSE to sin or to see how far we can abuse and misuse grace.
Actually people that truly believe in and understand "eternal security" are even MORE awestruck by the power, grace, and deepness of God.
(not that we are deep and so wonderful, but we crumble before the mighty majesty of our holy, great, powerful and wonderful God,, whom the seraphims cry out - HOLY HOLY HOLY before the throne all day and all night.)
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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