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Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 3:43:15 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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This thread is devoted to the discussion over the scripture's mention that women should cover their heads.
Is covering one's head still a scriptural mandate for women?
Are all women supposed to cover their heads?
Was this a cultural mandate that has since passed?
Why do women still cover their head today?
Are women who do not cover their heads living in disobedience?
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 3:54:03 PM
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rockv12
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I Cor. 11:15 says, "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." I always took this verse to explain why woman are supposed to have long hair and men aren't.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 4:01:14 PM
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talmid
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even that verse is hard to understand. It doesn't say a man should not have long hair (where does it say that?).
I'm unsure about this topic right now. Lots of NT verses seem to say two things. I'd like to further examine the contexts and keep in mind that the Bible never contradicts itself...
I'd also like to hear from any folks who have studied this issue in depth? I'm not qualified.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 4:04:50 PM
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rockv12
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I Cor. 11:14, "Does not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" What does this verse say? And what is considered long?
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 4:22:57 PM
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Coheir
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Inquiring minds want to know.  Funny how Jesus is never pictured in a crew cut. He's almost always depicted with at least shoulder length hair.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 4:56:19 PM
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talmid
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<offtopic chortle> anyone wanna see Yeshua in dredlocks? </offtopic chortle>
aha, rocky. i've never really noticed that verse in that context. thanks :)
let's quote that whole section, since it's one of the most controversial on this topic...
quote:
11:2-16
Now I praise you because you have remembered everything I told you and observe the traditions just the way I passed them on to you. But I want you to understand that the head of every man is the Messiah, and the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of the Messiah is God. Every man who prays or prophesies wearing something down over his head brings shame to his head, but every woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame to her head - there is no difference between her and a woman who has had her head shaved. For if a woman is not veiled, let her also have her hair cut short; but if it is shameful for a woman to wear her hair cut short or to have her head shaved, then let her be veiled. For a man indeed should not have his head veiled, because he is the image and glory of God, and the woman is the glory of man. For man was not made from woman, but woman from man; and indeed man was not created for the sake of the woman but woman for the sake of the man.
The reason a woman should show by veiling her head that she is under authority has to do with the angels. Nevertheless, in union with the Lord neither is woman independent of man nor is man independent of woman; for as the woman was made from the man, so also the man is now born through the woman. But everything is from God. Decide for yourselves: is it appropriate for a woman to pray to God when she is unveiled? Doesn't the nature of things itself teach you that a man who wears his hair long degrades himself? But a woman who wears her hair long enhances her appearance, because her hair has been given to her as a covering. However, if anyone wants to argue about it, the fact remains that we have no such custom, nor do the Messianic communities of God.
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shofar, so good
http://hools.woordpress.com
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 5:11:52 PM
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delete123
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I believe originally this verse was misinterpreted leading women to wear veils, hats, etc... to cover their heads. I believe that a woman's hair is her covering.
The ones who continue to wear a covering I believe it is a mandate of their faith. ie: Amish, Mennonites, some Orthodox religions that the verse means a cloth covering.
(As far as Jesus' hair being long, it was because he followed the way of the Jesuit priest where no razor was to touch the hair on their heads or face.)
Crh
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 5:27:50 PM
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EZ_03
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crh737
As far as Jesus' hair being long, it was because he followed the way of the Jesuit priest where no razor was to touch the hair on their heads or face.
jesuit priests preceded Jesus? He followed their way? 
perhaps you're thinking of the nazerite vow (Numbers 6)? however, He drank fruit of the vine, so that would not be the case. although He is a nazerene, He was not a nazerite...
back to the OP...
longer hair makes it make more sense than if dealing with head coverings...if the latter, paul would have been saying that the high priest was and had been dishonoring his head, although commanded to wear a head covering by God.
(of course for those that feel Paul came to correct all of God's OT laws, this may not be a problem...  )
for rock and talmid, you may be interested in this article. (and hope you had a happy Shavuot, btw!)
kevin
_____________________________
Open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from Your Torah. (Psalms 119:18)
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31)
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 5:41:45 PM
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lss44
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1 Peter 3:3-4
3 Your adornment must not be merely external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
I think these verses put the idea of outward appearance in context.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 6:32:49 PM
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IAMlives
Posts: 13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
This thread is devoted to the discussion over the scripture's mention that women should cover their heads.
Is covering one's head still a scriptural mandate for women?
Are all women supposed to cover their heads?
Was this a cultural mandate that has since passed?
Why do women still cover their head today?
Are women who do not cover their heads living in disobedience?
quote:
This thread is devoted to the discussion over the scripture's mention that women should cover their heads.
Is covering one's head still a scriptural mandate for women?
Are all women supposed to cover their heads?
Was this a cultural mandate that has since passed?
Why do women still cover their head today?
Are women who do not cover their heads living in disobedience?
Thanks for bringing this up.
Yes, I do believe head covering is still for today. I believe that God is an ancient God and directs us to walk in the ancient path.
Because society in America doesn't place value on covering one's head doesn't necessarily mean that christians shouldn't place a value on it. There are many things that society labels as good which isn't good, or vice versa.
I believe that covering one's head shows a sign of humility. God gives grace to the humble, but opposes the proud. Why would I want to take something like my hair and make a statement, or flash it around to be noticed? As a woman, this is very tempting to do, considering that I have a lot of it as well, hehehe.
Many christians believe that this was simply a cultural value, but I don't see Paul defending it to the degree that he does simply for culture sake. There is biblical reasoning given for the practice, such as headship, humility (not showing forth one's own glory, but rather seeking the glory of the Lord).
This could spill over into clothing as well. I don't think it's necessarily wrong for women to wear pants, but modesty should be in mind. Which most people never mention concerning modesty is PRICEY clothing. That's another thing to take into consideration. James talks about the rich man wearing the ring given preference over the poor.
I truthfully don't believe our riches should be on display in a church setting. We should humbly come together for the other's edification, not a fashion show or contest.
I have a wonderful husband and I don't want to attract the attention of another man or tempt them either.
Is it a sin not to wear a headcovering?
Due to the many varied opinions on the matter, I can see why someone would think that it's ok not to cover and I wouldn't necessarily call it sin if they don't. However I will say this, my relationship with God has deepened since I started covering my head. God loves reverence and obedience and submission. Just look at the example of Jesus, who submitted Himself to all manner of suffering in obedience. God was pleased with this. Obedience really pleases God, it shows our love of Him.
This should not be done however simply on the outside, it's an inner thing that works on the outside as well (covering). Submission to God is beautiful.
God bless!
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 9:44:39 PM
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W.O.F.
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Amen IAMlives!
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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[Deleted] - 6/14/2005 11:21:46 PM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2005 11:41:50 PM
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facedown
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quote:
I really wonder whether you know what this verse means.
And then some, thanks :-)
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[Deleted] - 6/14/2005 11:44:15 PM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 3:04:57 AM
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Ezra
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The teaching of Paul on the woman's head covering is a very significant teaching, and the first thing we should note is that the Holy Spirit through Paul has devoted a total of sixteen verses of Scriptures to properly lay down the truths contained therein.
No instructions given to Christians through the apostles were of a temporary nature, since God already knows that His Church would be on earth for at least another 2,000 years. So there is nothing "cultural" about this entire subject. However, because it is spiritual, and because it has been thorougly neglected, most Christians simply dismiss 16 verses of God's Word as irrelevant, and most preachers and teachers studiously avoid this passage..
So to answer the questions raised:
Is covering one's head still a scriptural mandate for women? YES
Are all women supposed to cover their heads? YES, IF THEY ARE CHRISTIAN
Was this a cultural mandate that has since passed? NO
Why do women still cover their head today? THEY ARE OBEDIENT
Are women who do not cover their heads living in disobedience? NOT "LIVING" IN DISOBEDIENCE, BUT DISOBEYING THE COMMAND TO COVER.
Something to keep in mind is that if someone believes that the first sixteen verses of this chapter can be trashed, why would he not trash the entire chapter? Or do we pick and choose and use subjective judgment to say "This is God's Word" and "This is human opinion".
< Message edited by Ezra -- 6/15/2005 3:09:14 AM >
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 3:24:39 AM
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IAMlives
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WOW,
honestly, I expected nobody to agree with me on the issue of headcovering. Thanks so much for the support 2capp and WOF.
Where are you all from by the way? America? hehehe!
And, that baby picture is hilarious! I wish I could of got a shot like that of my daughter at that age, too funny!
(you may not think so after hearing the screams for awhile tho! hehehe)...
take care!
IAMlives
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 3:35:57 AM
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IAMlives
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
quote:
Yes, I do believe head covering is still for today
I'd just like to share, that though I disagree with you-I totally respect your perspective, and what your presented. I don't think it would be fruitful to enter a debate regarding this issue-as it would likely get very sensitive (maybe not you-maybe not me-maybe someone else).
So, I'll sum up my position from (1) passage (man, it seems like I've shared this a lot lately)
Colossians 1:27b "...the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."
If that didn't track over well with you-how I see this passage and this issue connected-let me know.
Peace be with you.
bill
Dear bill,
I guess I'm not sure what you are trying to state by the passage? I can guess that you believe that since the glory of Christ is with us, why hide it?
I don't know about you, but speaking as a woman, my hair is my crown jewel, lol. This is glory that is mine, given to me from God. I don't want to proudly display it for another besides my husband.
By covering MY OWN glory, I believe that CHRIST's glory is VISIBLE. I hope this makes sense to you, or I'm conveying that right. I don't want to detract from God's glory at all. I want Him to be visible.
I believe that part of the PURPOSE of a family is to let God's glory shine. We do that by fulfilling the roles that He has assigned to us, ie-headship and submission. The husband represents Christ, the wife represents the bride/church. Just as the church is subject to Christ, so should the wife be to her husband. This principle of authority should be acknowledged according to Paul, visibly acknowledged, even the angels display levels of authority.
So, my application of the scripture you presented is probably not the same as yours.
(which by the way, I do sincerely love your nickname. I believe that's the best place to be...facedown! )
take care,
IAMlives
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 3:55:27 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1252
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IAMlives
I believe that part of the PURPOSE of a family is to let God's glory shine. We do that by fulfilling the roles that He has assigned to us, ie-headship and submission. The husband represents Christ, the wife represents the bride/church. Just as the church is subject to Christ, so should the wife be to her husband. This principle of authority should be acknowledged according to Paul, visibly acknowledged, even the angels display levels of authority.
IAMLives:
You seem to be one of the few Christian women today who understand the heart and the depth of the teaching in 1 Cor. 11:1-16, as you have summarized so well.
And it is indeed "because of the angels" that Christian women must have the symbol of being under authority [Gk. exousia] on their heads. Perhaps the Lord will use you to teach your sisters in your church these neglected truths.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 4:08:29 AM
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IAMlives
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Hi Ezra-
I really enjoyed the points that you brought up concerning headcovering, and I agree up to the point of whether or not it's disobedience. I believe it's disobedience when a person knows it's a command, ie-they are held accountable.
(You may agree with me on this though.)
I think it takes time for a person to understand what the will of the Lord is, by study and prayer. Some realizations don't happen overnight, but the Lord is gently leading and guiding and eventually they may see that this is actually a command, and not the interpretation of the majority of pastor's today.
Example? For several years I went to church and believed what pastors taught on this topic. Mainly that it was a custom and it doesn't apply to today. Not to mention that the majority of American christian women do not cover their heads. I didn't see any examples of this, other than Amish. God was patient with me however and revealed headcovering to me as He softened my heart.
Growing up in a culture of female equal rights made it hard for me accept scriptures pertaining to submission (I was in rebellion), but I honestly believed what pastors stated about covering ie-defunct practice.
I am thankful that God looks on the heart and is patient with us, hallelujah! In the meantime however, I know that He wants His words to be accepted, not rejected. I believe it disappoints Him to see false teaching and dismissal of His truths.
I think what you stated is true, that it is VERY significant and I pray that there are those here who may have been taught otherwise would take a second look and pray about it.
I'd like to add as well that the instructions following head covering deals with the Lord's supper. Nobody disputes that this should be continued in practice, or that it was a custom. A lot of people dismiss tradition because they believe it's legalistic or due to culture. However there were traditions instituted by the Lord and these are different than traditions instituted by man. I believe covering comes from the Lord according to Paul. Paul further stated in 2 Corinthians that the things he wrote about were the Lord's commandments, not his own opinions.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 4:17:04 AM
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IAMlives
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quote:
IAMLives:
You seem to be one of the few Christian women today who understand the heart and the depth of the teaching in 1 Cor. 11:1-16, as you have summarized so well.
And it is indeed "because of the angels" that Christian women must have the symbol of being under authority [Gk. exousia] on their heads. Perhaps the Lord will use you to teach your sisters in your church these neglected truths.
Dear Ezra,
I didn't see this comment before I posted to you previously! Thank you for this encouragement!
I do sincerely hope that you see where I am coming from concerning disobedience. I must say that I wholeheartedly believe women are commanded to cover their heads. However there are sooooooo many teachers out there that dismiss this truth, it's sad, really sad.
I cannot tell you the genuine depth of relationship I've had with the Lord since I became obedient in this matter. OOOOh the joy of the Lord is tremendous, not to mention the sheer affectionate closeness I have with Him now!!!
I cannot stress enough just how pleased God is with obedience and submission!
God bless you,
IAMlives
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 8:10:50 AM
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babbred
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An excellent resource for subjects like this is How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth by Dr. Gordon Fee and Dr. Douglas Stuart. We used it as textbook in one of my bible classes, and it really is a good resource for how to interpret the bible properly. They analyze the different types of writing styles in the bible and how to read and interpret them without imposing your own viewpoints on the text. I especially love the first line of their introduction.
Every so often we meet someone who says with great feeling, "You don't have to interpret the bible; just read it and do what it says."
Then later they add:
But if plain meaning is what interpretation is all about, then why interpret? Why not just read? Does not the plain meaning come simply from reading? In a sense, yes. But in a truer sense, such an argument is naive and unrealistic because of two factors: the nature of the reader and the nature of Scripture.
The first reason one needs to learn how to interpret is that, whether one likes it or not, every reader is at the same time an interpreter. That is, most of us assume as we read that we also understand what we read. We also tend to think that our understanding is the same as the Holy Spirit's, or the human author's, intent. However, we inevitably bring to the the text all that we are, with all of our experiences, culture, and prior understanding of word and ideas. Sometimes what we bring to the text, unintentionally to be sure, leads us astray, or else causes us to read all kinds of foreign ideas into the text.
The need to interpret is also to be found by noting what goes on around us all the time. A simple look at the contemporary church, for instance, makes it abundantly clear that not all "plain meanings" are equally plain to all. It is of more than passing interest that those in today's church who argue that women should keep silent in the church on the basis of I Cor 14:34-35 at the same time deny the validity of speaking in tongues and prophecy, the very context in which the "silence" passage occurs. [emphasis author's]
I have read numerous books on this subject, all of them, like the above, written by evangelical, orthodox Christians. (And available on cbd.com, hardly a bastion of liberal, un-Christian thought.) Based on those books, I believe that Paul's instructions here were cultural. The city of Corinth was notorious for its temple prostitutes. Unlike other women, these prostitutes were allowed to roam the streets uveiled, and with their hair cut short. Paul wanted to believing women to distinguish themselves from these prostitutes, hence the need for modesty and covering up, and hence his talking about the glory of long hair.
Should every word of the bible be taken literally for today? Everything I have read says no. In fact, Gordon and Fee have two chapters on the subject, when they deal with the book of Acts and with the epistles. I tend to follow their line of reasoning. The early church did many things that we don't do today. For instance, it says in Acts that the church sold everything they had and owned what was left in commuity. Anybody want to volunteer for that today?
And once again, before people start crying that these are liberal authors trying to destroy the truth of Christianity as we know it, let me remind you that they are not. They are conservative, evangelical, orthodox Christians. One of the books I have was written by the founder of the largest non-denominational missions organizations in the world--not likely to be a raving liberal. And Dr. Fee is a professor at Regent College, which is an evangelical bible college.
BTW, I Cor clearly says women were prophecying in church. In fact, it says that in the passage everyone's been quoting. So if you want to take everything in the NT literally for today, then you have to allow women to prophecy in church.
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There's nothing better than a good friend, unless it's a good friend with chocolate.
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