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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 8:49:36 AM
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i_believe
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1Co 11:1-16 Be imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ. (2) Now I praise you, brothers, that you remember me in all things, and hold firm the traditions, even as I delivered them to you. (3) But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. (4) Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. (5) But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonors her head. For it is one and the same thing as if she were shaved. (6) For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. (7) For a man indeed ought not to have his head covered, because he is the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of the man. (8) For man is not from woman, but woman from man; (9) for neither was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. (10) For this cause the woman ought to have authority on her head, because of the angels. (11) Nevertheless, neither is the woman independent of the man, nor the man independent of the woman, in the Lord. (12) For as woman came from man, so a man also comes through a woman; but all things are from God. (13) Judge for yourselves. Is it appropriate that a woman pray to God unveiled? (14) Doesn't even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? (15) But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given to her for a covering. (16) But if any man seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither do God's assemblies.
None of the context given for women having their heads covered has changed. The only thing that changes is the heart of man as it grows distant from the Word of God and relies on the wisdom (foolishness) of man to guide it. 
1Co 3:19-20 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He has taken the wise in their craftiness." (20) And again, "The Lord knows the reasoning of the wise, that it is worthless."
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 9:58:18 AM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2004
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2cappucinosmom, babbred in post 24 covered the cultural context. IMO...the principle is that Christian woman should not be in appearance anything close to the appearance of prostitutes. Prostitutes of the tme had short hair (which would have been unusual for the time...why did they, I wonder?) and did not wear hair coverings; "moral" women of the time and culture covered their hair.
IMO, to equate I Cor. 11:15 with a command for women to cover their hair today is both assuming more (all women commanded to cover their hair in a completely different cultural context) and less (focusing on hair itself when the intent was to ensure that godly women were very different then prostitutes in their appearance) then what Paul's intent was in the epistle. And don't take that wrong, I know that most women covering their hair today are also modest dressers. I'm saying that I think the point of I Cor. 11:15 is being missed.
(BTW...cute picture of your baby!)
< Message edited by stateofgrace -- 6/15/2005 10:01:05 AM >
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 4:26:59 PM
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claytoac
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Praise Jesus,
The question is a woman suppose to cover her head? The answer is yes, but the only time that a woman covers their head is when they are Praying, or giving of Prophecy, teaching and preaching and the reason why is when we are approaching God or he is using a women in the Holy Ghost is that a Woman's hair is here Crown of Glory and no one should glorify themselves when they are in the present of the Lord or being a used as a vessel. And this is only when they are being used by Jesus in the Holy Ghost and its not when a women is in the present of a mere Man or in a building.
If you go to 1 Corinthians 11 it will tell you when and why a woman should cover their head.
May Jesus words add a blessing to your soul
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 5:05:49 PM
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IAMlives
Posts: 13
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Babbred,
Please tell me, do you interpret the Lord's supper? Is the Lord's supper up to conjecture?
Head covering falls under the same category. They are instructions, (commands) given to the church.
Prophecy needs Holy Spirit interpretation, not direct commands.
2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke [as they were] moved by the Holy Spirit.
take care,
IAMlives
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 5:19:49 PM
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IAMlives
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2capp, claytoac, Ibelieve and Ezra,
are any of you aware of churches which practice headcovering?
I want to be careful on this issue though because I agree with claytoac that women are allowed to minister, although that ministering shouldn't usurp authority from men.
Also want to interject that although Paul stated when to cover, why not cover other times as well? Since it's a symbol of modesty and respect, I see value in doing it on a regular basis.
God bless,
IAMlives
< Message edited by IAMlives -- 6/15/2005 5:21:56 PM >
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 5:35:46 PM
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IAMlives
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2cappucinosmom
I know about the prostitute argument (although, I found many pictures on a web search of high priestesses and goddesses of that time and culture who were wearing veils, so I'm not sure I agree with it). What I want to know is why the writer of the passage seemingly forgot to mention that, if it was the most important reasoning for covering.
Why is it background culture that decides the matter, rather than the actual words of Scripture?
2capp,
I totally agree with you about the "prostitute" teaching. Looking at the context that Ibelieve provided in a post above us...
This is what it means to me,
Paul states that a woman's hair is her glory, and I wholeheartedly agree. Just look at how the secular world flashes women's hair. It's definitely her crown jewel!
The point Paul was trying to make was to prove that this(glory=her hair) is the case by saying that if it would be shameful for her to shave her head (ie-MISSING glory!), then she should COVER her head. Paul basically is PROVING that hair is a GLORY to women, why then would it be shameful NOT to have it?
The hair is not the covering either, the words are different in the greek. Paul is specifically commanding a woman's head of hair be covered.
I've heard other arguments that Paul dismisses his teaching by saying,
"(16) But if any man seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither do God's assemblies."
Well, do you want to be CONTENTIOUS? If you really believe that it's ok to dismiss what Paul is saying because you are contentious is not a good standing to be.
I believe what Paul meant here was, we have no other practice, period. (argue it all you want, there aren't any other churches which practice something DIFFERENT).
take care,
IAMlives
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 6:45:59 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1471
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IAMlives
WOW,
honestly, I expected nobody to agree with me on the issue of headcovering. Thanks so much for the support 2capp and WOF.
Where are you all from by the way? America? hehehe!
And, that baby picture is hilarious! I wish I could of got a shot like that of my daughter at that age, too funny!
(you may not think so after hearing the screams for awhile tho! hehehe)...
take care!
IAMlives
Actually..I am from America! hee hee
there are a few of us here that cover.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 6:53:06 PM
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W.O.F.
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one thing to keep in mind that Paul clearly stated...and it is the hardest one for NON-coverers to get thier hands around as a rule...
In verse 13, Paul states "Judge for yourselves...."
hmm...
In other words, seek the Lord, and let Him guide you and then make a judgement based on His Word and His leading.
and more recent translations literally state the "we have no such custom" as "We have NO OTHER PRACTICE."...meaning there were no exceptions to the rule in all the churces (not just the ones in Corinth).
The key...
to seek the Lord, realize that Scripture is inerrant period..and is to be taken literally.
The very premise of women being treated as equals and as something OTHER than chattle comes from the NT itself....
just something to keep in mind....
You cannot dismiss part of Scripture and accept other parts....
you either accept it as a whole...or not at all.
"judge for yourselves.....if it is fit for a woman to pray uncovered."
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 7:25:23 PM
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IAMlives
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quote:
one thing to keep in mind that Paul clearly stated...and it is the hardest one for NON-coverers to get thier hands around as a rule...
In verse 13, Paul states "Judge for yourselves...."
hmm...
In other words, seek the Lord, and let Him guide you and then make a judgement based on His Word and His leading.
very aptly put!!
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 7:54:11 PM
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bobservations
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Would I be right in saying that head covering is a ritual rule and not moral? Baptism and the Lord's supper are ritual and most believe we should partake of these rituals. Some rituals were started because of custom of the area surrounding the church. We are not living in the Middle East, so we shouldn't feel obligated to keep their rituals. They on the other hand should respect everyone else in their church.
I think a good rule to follow is "When in Rome do as the Romans do". My wife always check with the custom of a particular church before she will wear a pants suit to their church. We should never offend others, even when it is not a moral issue.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 10:17:58 PM
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i_believe
Posts: 1298
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quote:
The hair is not the covering either, the words are different in the greek. Paul is specifically commanding a woman's head of hair be covered.
I do not think this serves to prove anything other than what one has already concluded (what one brings to the text). I have seen many explanations for both sides of the hair issue but have not seen any that is strong enough to prove it one way or the other. Thus I am left to be fully convinced by the scripture and Holy Spirit.
The clear thing for me is that the head of the woman is the man:
"the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man" and she is to have a symbol/sign of authority on her head. Whatever the conviction one has regarding the substance of the covering... there must be "a" covering.
"man... is the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of the man"
_____________________________
Grace and Peace,
IB
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on...
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 10:19:02 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
Would I be right in saying that head covering is a ritual rule and not moral?
"Rituals", as is generally understood, are meaningless ceremonies. Going through the motions. The "ordinances" are spiritual in nature, and include water baptism, the Lord's Supper, and the woman's head covering: "Now I praise you brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances [commandments of the Lord], as I delivered them to you" (1 Cor.11:1).
So these are not empty rituals but actual commmandments of the Lord, which though symbolic, have deep and powerful spiritual significance. Think of baptism, think of the Lord's Supper, then think of the woman's head covering and the man's uncovered head. It is significant that Paul pairs two of these "ordinances" in one chapter, which is dealing with the gathering of believers for worship.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 10:31:06 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IAMlives
However there were traditions instituted by the Lord and these are different than traditions instituted by man. I believe covering comes from the Lord according to Paul. Paul further stated in 2 Corinthians that the things he wrote about were the Lord's commandments, not his own opinions.
Absolutely. Our obedience hinges on the fact that these are the Lord's commandments, "handed down" to the apsotles as "ordinances", and called "traditons" [that which is handed down] by Paul strictly in the sense of teachings faithfully handed down from the Lord to the apostles, then to the churches, with the full authority of Christ behind them.
In contrast, the veneration of ikons for example, or the lighting of candles, is not mentioned in Scripture, and cannot be therefore called an apostolic "tradition".
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2005 10:40:22 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IAMlives
I do sincerely hope that you see where I am coming from concerning disobedience.
I agree heartily, but I toned down my response since the majority of Christian women have never been carefully and faithfully taught these truths (especially from their mature sisters in the faith), so it may not be wilful disobedience as much as a sin of ignorance (although every believer does have direct access to Scripture, some things need to be taught, hence pastors, evangelists and teachers).
quote:
I cannot tell you the genuine depth of relationship I've had with the Lord since I became obedient in this matter.
Praise God for opening the eyes of your understanding and giving you this closeness to Him.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2005 8:28:37 PM
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Tabby2002
Posts: 228
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rockv12
I Cor. 11:15 says, "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." I always took this verse to explain why woman are supposed to have long hair and men aren't.
My question is in regard to the above verse. If a woman's cover is her long hair...then if a woman has short hair she should wear some sort of head covering? If a woman has long hair does she still need to wear a covering even though it says her hair is a covering? Define "long hair" and "short hair"...it doesn't say how long the hair must be to be considered long...shoulder length? waist length? above the shoulder? A couple inches below the shoulder? Any answers or thoughts to this? I tried to read all the posts but didn't get through them all...don't know if this has been discussed yet or not. My apologies if it has been, and can someone point me to the post it was discussed in please.
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http://confirmtheworkofourhands.blogspot.com
http://kittenyarnsandcrafts.blogspot.com (my knitting blog)
http://inkscrawls.blogspot.com (my writing blog)
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2005 10:54:11 PM
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bobservations
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Ezra said:
quote:
"Rituals", as is generally understood, are meaningless ceremonies. Going through the motions. The "ordinances" are spiritual in nature, and include water baptism, the Lord's Supper, and the woman's head covering: "Now I praise you brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances [commandments of the Lord], as I delivered them to you" (1 Cor.11:1).
Where have I been? "Rituals", as is generally understood, are meaningless ceremonies. From what dictonary did that statement come? My dictionary says that ritual is: The form for ceremony, also the prescribed form for conducting a religious ceremony. Nothing meaningless there. The Sabbath was a ritual law and so is baptism and the Lord's supper. Not covering ones head certainly isn't immoral. Think about it.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2005 11:41:30 PM
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saintgrace
Posts: 29
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
This thread is devoted to the discussion over the scripture's mention that women should cover their heads.
Is covering one's head still a scriptural mandate for women?
Are all women supposed to cover their heads?
Was this a cultural mandate that has since passed?
Why do women still cover their head today?
Are women who do not cover their heads living in disobedience?
This is just my opinion, and I dont try to push it onto anyone else:
I avoid legalistic prescriptions for holiness, and I totally steer clear of churches that put more emphasis on things such as this than they do on the grace and mercy of our Lord.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2005 12:20:14 AM
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Incompre_Tertu
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WHat would be the harm in covering your head anyway?...Other than selfish reasons, ie. won't get a date or people would laugh at you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: IAMlives
I don't know about you, but speaking as a woman, my hair is my crown jewel, lol. This is glory that is mine, given to me from God. I don't want to proudly display it for another besides my husband.
By covering MY OWN glory, I believe that CHRIST's glory is VISIBLE. I hope this makes sense to you, or I'm conveying that right. I don't want to detract from God's glory at all. I want Him to be visible.
You're reasons for doing so would only be to give glory to God.
Also...
Obviously there is division about this issue, so my advice is, 'When in doubt, why take the chance of disobeying God, and 'Just do it!''
Also again...
I am married, but I wouldn't force my wife to cover head because I would be forcing her to glorify (love) God. God doesn't force us to accept Him, so why would I make others to do so.
Also again again,
Amen, IAMlives
_____________________________
An anti-Constantine moderate-conservative non-WCC ecumencial evangelical supporting Christian,
With Christ in mind & at heart,
from beyond comprehension to everlasting life
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2005 6:20:35 PM
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Tabby2002
Posts: 228
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: New Brunswick, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tabby2002
quote:
ORIGINAL: rockv12
I Cor. 11:15 says, "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." I always took this verse to explain why woman are supposed to have long hair and men aren't.
My question is in regard to the above verse. If a woman's cover is her long hair...then if a woman has short hair she should wear some sort of head covering? If a woman has long hair does she still need to wear a covering even though it says her hair is a covering? Define "long hair" and "short hair"...it doesn't say how long the hair must be to be considered long...shoulder length? waist length? above the shoulder? A couple inches below the shoulder? Any answers or thoughts to this? I tried to read all the posts but didn't get through them all...don't know if this has been discussed yet or not. My apologies if it has been, and can someone point me to the post it was discussed in please.
So can anyone answer this for me?
_____________________________
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http://confirmtheworkofourhands.blogspot.com
http://kittenyarnsandcrafts.blogspot.com (my knitting blog)
http://inkscrawls.blogspot.com (my writing blog)
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2005 6:52:33 PM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tabby2002
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tabby2002
quote:
ORIGINAL: rockv12
I Cor. 11:15 says, "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." I always took this verse to explain why woman are supposed to have long hair and men aren't.
My question is in regard to the above verse. If a woman's cover is her long hair...then if a woman has short hair she should wear some sort of head covering? If a woman has long hair does she still need to wear a covering even though it says her hair is a covering? Define "long hair" and "short hair"...it doesn't say how long the hair must be to be considered long...shoulder length? waist length? above the shoulder? A couple inches below the shoulder? Any answers or thoughts to this? I tried to read all the posts but didn't get through them all...don't know if this has been discussed yet or not. My apologies if it has been, and can someone point me to the post it was discussed in please.
So can anyone answer this for me?
1 Corinthians 11:2, in the original Greek, is rendered "a woman has authority over her own head" (not "ought to have a sign of authority on her head" as most translations have added "a sign of" to the original text). In other words, pray about it and be led by what you feel the H.S. is leading you to do.
I also gently suggest that you're getting all tangled up in finding what the "law" or the "rule" is on this ... For some reason, we tend to look at the Bible as some kind of rule book, and if we can just follow all the rules exactly, we'll please God. But you have been unshackled. Christ came to set us free from all that.
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i.e., hair style/length on a woman that is not confused with that of a man and vice versa. 
