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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:54:49 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
OK, I am done with this thread. It is in by means glorifying God or helping me grow in my faith, it is actually doing the opposite. I love you all and I pray that your faith and your walk grows.
I don't know why non-reformists try so hard to resist giving the credit to God's power for transforming them instead of giving credit to their own free will for their faith.  I, for one, am so thankful that my life is in God's hands not my own, that I can't understand why some people want it to be the other way around. 
God's power is to credit, Carico. God's mercy, which He promised to everyone, is one of the most incredible things I've ever fathomed. You ask why non-reformists "try so hard to resist giving credit to God's power". I ask why reformists want to put a limit or a cap on God's infinite mercy.
Oh no. There's that entitlement mentality again that everyone deserves heaven just because he was born. You couldn't be further from the truth. It's the exact opposite. None of us deserves heaven. It's a gift from God to those to whom he is pleased to give it as Matthew 11:25-27 explains perfectly. It's God who does the choosing as He tells us all over the bible. "You did not choose me. I chose you.'
John 15: "If you belonged to the world the world would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world for I have chosen you out of the world. And that's why the world hates you."
Notice that Jesus did not say; "I have chosen the world" as you claim he did.
Once again, God is the one who makes the decisions of the universe, not man because only God is sovereign. So all you are doing is showing man's wisdom which says; "I choose who gets to go into God's kingdom." God says; "Oh no. Only I have the right to make that choice" as Jesus illustrates in the parable of the worker.
So reformists don't make up our own bible to suit our itching ears. When God said; "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated," He meant; "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."
You are completely getting the idea of free will wrong. Are you doing this on purpose?
I never said anything about "entitlement". You brought that up. It's not in my mind at all. I simply read the Bible where it says, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." and "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
You're talking about specific verses directed at twelve people. I'm talking about general statements by the man God chose to give the whole world the gospel.
No person on this board who believes God died for everyone has said that men choose who gets into God's kingdom, that I have seen. You take the extra step that doesn't exists from the points we make and comment on the non-existent steps. This gets us nowhere.
People who understand that God died for everyone do not "make up our own bible to suit our itching ears", as you decided to put it. When the word of God says, "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all," ALL is exactly what it means.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:57:42 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Here's the new Romans 9:11 made up by non-reformists:
"For after the twins were born and Esau rejected me but Jacob didn't, to show that it's man's works, not God's election that stands, she was told, 'the older will serve the younger because Esau rejected me and Jacob didn't." 
So because non-reformists don't like the fact that God does the choosing instead of each individual person, they change the bible to make it say what their itching ears want to hear.  Sorry, but God doesn't like His word blasphemed and changed and it will not go un-noticed by Him. You can count on that.
So the first thing they need to do is believe the bible as written then find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture together instead of changing the bible to make it say what you want it to say. If you take the time to do that, you'll find that it makes perfect sense as written.
Please rethink treating others facetiously and treating them in a way you probably wouldn't want to be treated.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 5:57:43 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
OK, I am done with this thread. It is in by means glorifying God or helping me grow in my faith, it is actually doing the opposite. I love you all and I pray that your faith and your walk grows.
I don't know why non-reformists try so hard to resist giving the credit to God's power for transforming them instead of giving credit to their own free will for their faith. I, for one, am so thankful that my life is in God's hands not my own, that I can't understand why some people want it to be the other way around.
God's power is to credit, Carico. God's mercy, which He promised to everyone, is one of the most incredible things I've ever fathomed. You ask why non-reformists "try so hard to resist giving credit to God's power". I ask why reformists want to put a limit or a cap on God's infinite mercy.
Oh no. There's that entitlement mentality again that everyone deserves heaven just because he was born. You couldn't be further from the truth. It's the exact opposite. None of us deserves heaven. It's a gift from God to those to whom he is pleased to give it as Matthew 11:25-27 explains perfectly. It's God who does the choosing as He tells us all over the bible. "You did not choose me. I chose you.'
John 15: "If you belonged to the world the world would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world for I have chosen you out of the world. And that's why the world hates you."
Notice that Jesus did not say; "I have chosen the world" as you claim he did.
Once again, God is the one who makes the decisions of the universe, not man because only God is sovereign. So all you are doing is showing man's wisdom which says; "I choose who gets to go into God's kingdom." God says; "Oh no. Only I have the right to make that choice" as Jesus illustrates in the parable of the worker.
So reformists don't make up our own bible to suit our itching ears. When God said; "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated," He meant; "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."
You are completely getting the idea of free will wrong. Are you doing this on purpose?
I never said anything about "entitlement". You brought that up. It's not in my mind at all. I simply read the Bible where it says, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." and "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
You're talking about specific verses directed at twelve people. I'm talking about general statements by the man God chose to give the whole world the gospel.
No person on this board who believes God died for everyone has said that men choose who gets into God's kingdom, that I have seen. You take the extra step that doesn't exists from the points we make and comment on the non-existent steps. This gets us nowhere.
People who understand that God died for everyone do not "make up our own bible to suit our itching ears", as you decided to put it. When the word of God says, "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all," ALL is exactly what it means.
And you aren't putting those verses together with other scripture, particularly, Matthew 11:25-27, John 15:19, 1 Corinthians 2:14, John 15:16, Matthew 22:14 and Romans 9:11-25. I have. So instead of taking verses out of context with the whole bible, you need to reconcile them together with all scripture. And until you do that, you will continue to distort the bible.
"for many are invited but few are chosen."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 6:30:40 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
And right now my heart tells me God takes no pleasure in any man's condemnation.
Who said God does ? So, why say it ?
Oh I think there is Scripture somewhere that says it, Can't bring it to mind right now. Help, FG?
My pleasure, rw.
Ezek 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anhyone who dies", declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live." Clearly a warning for people to repent, demonstrating that repenting that repentance comes from man.
Ezek 33:11 "Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way (REPENT) and live."
Are you guys conflict junkies ?
I know what The Bible says...
Who on THE THREAD said it ?
Who here said God delights in condemning ?
He doesn't ! No one said He does !
Why bother stating the obvious ?
I should know better with this bunch...
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 6:41:28 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
And you aren't putting those verses together with other scripture, particularly, Matthew 11:25-27, John 15:19, 1 Corinthians 2:14, John 15:16, Matthew 22:14 and Romans 9:11-25. I have. So instead of taking verses out of context with the whole bible, you need to reconcile them together with all scripture. And until you do that, you will continue to distort the bible.
"for many are invited but few are chosen."
And this is God's plan...to save some.
It's what He did for whatever reason.
No one understands. It is unfathomable.
Again, what God isn't doing is saving all.
He didn't wish it and didn't do it. Dunno why.
He did what He did for whatever reason He did it.
This chaps a lot of folk, don't really know why.
I just stated what God is doing-NOT saving all.
Be mad at God...He's the decision maker.
Everyone will not be in Heaven. That's universalism.
Potential universalism is ALL have a chance.
How does man having a chance glorify God ?
And is that the gospel ? Sounds like the lottery.
Is the message, "you might get saved" ?
No, God has His elect that are chosen & foreordained.
We all here are elect, chosen, and saved. Praise God !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 7:06:47 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
OK, I am done with this thread. It is in by means glorifying God or helping me grow in my faith, it is actually doing the opposite. I love you all and I pray that your faith and your walk grows.
I don't know why non-reformists try so hard to resist giving the credit to God's power for transforming them instead of giving credit to their own free will for their faith. I, for one, am so thankful that my life is in God's hands not my own, that I can't understand why some people want it to be the other way around.
God's power is to credit, Carico. God's mercy, which He promised to everyone, is one of the most incredible things I've ever fathomed. You ask why non-reformists "try so hard to resist giving credit to God's power". I ask why reformists want to put a limit or a cap on God's infinite mercy.
Oh no. There's that entitlement mentality again that everyone deserves heaven just because he was born. You couldn't be further from the truth. It's the exact opposite. None of us deserves heaven. It's a gift from God to those to whom he is pleased to give it as Matthew 11:25-27 explains perfectly. It's God who does the choosing as He tells us all over the bible. "You did not choose me. I chose you.'
John 15: "If you belonged to the world the world would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world for I have chosen you out of the world. And that's why the world hates you."
Notice that Jesus did not say; "I have chosen the world" as you claim he did.
Once again, God is the one who makes the decisions of the universe, not man because only God is sovereign. So all you are doing is showing man's wisdom which says; "I choose who gets to go into God's kingdom." God says; "Oh no. Only I have the right to make that choice" as Jesus illustrates in the parable of the worker.
So reformists don't make up our own bible to suit our itching ears. When God said; "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated," He meant; "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."
You are completely getting the idea of free will wrong. Are you doing this on purpose?
I never said anything about "entitlement". You brought that up. It's not in my mind at all. I simply read the Bible where it says, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." and "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
You're talking about specific verses directed at twelve people. I'm talking about general statements by the man God chose to give the whole world the gospel.
No person on this board who believes God died for everyone has said that men choose who gets into God's kingdom, that I have seen. You take the extra step that doesn't exists from the points we make and comment on the non-existent steps. This gets us nowhere.
People who understand that God died for everyone do not "make up our own bible to suit our itching ears", as you decided to put it. When the word of God says, "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all," ALL is exactly what it means.
And you aren't putting that together with other scripture, particularly, Matthew 11:25-27, John 15:19, 1 Corinthians 2:14, and Romans 9:11-25. I have. So instead of taking verses out of context with the while bible, you need to reconcile them together with all scripture. And until you do that,k you will continue to distort the bible.
Nothing is out of context. I could have quoted the surrounding verses, but I prefer to speak to the point.
Are you disregarding those verses?
I will comment on each of yours, if you wish.
Matthew 11:27, right?
"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
What is next, since you wanted to make sure we took this in context.
Matthew 11:28-29 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS."
God allows people to see the Father. He is not as picky as you want Him to be, I don't think, since right after He said that, He extended an invitation to everyone!
John 15:19
Jesus is still responding to Judas' question in 14:22, and is speaking to twelve people, and nobody else. "Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?"" Jesus revealed His ministry entirely only to His twelve disciples. Later, in John 15:27, Jesus tells them that they will eventually spread it farther.
1 Corinthians 2:14
Besides being a contrast between the materialistic man and the spiritual man in their practice of discernment, just three verses later, Paul compares the people to whom he is speaking, the infants in Christ, to men of the flesh. He says they are to be spoken to the same way. Paul doesn't say these people are NEVER able to receive the Word, but that they are NOT YET able. He says this for men of flesh and for infants in Christ.
Romans 9:11
"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God's purpose in election might stand," The word 'Might" is specific to mean a possibility. This is far from the Calvinistic idea of unconditional election. This whole passage afterward is a contrast of Jews and Gentiles. The chosen people were Jews, but now, as Jesus said, "The first shall be last", or as Paul says in v12, "The older will serve the younger." In v13, Paul teaches us that though it looked like God did not love the gentiles, they really were loved. John 3:16 says that God loved the world. The closure of the passage, in v21, brings the whole idea of the entry of the gentiles into perspective. Nobody should tell God He is making a mistake in bringing the Gentiles into the kingdom.
I've taken these verses in the context they were written and they fully agree with free will. Look at the verses I gave you, and you'll see they do the same in context.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 7:10:13 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
And you aren't putting those verses together with other scripture, particularly, Matthew 11:25-27, John 15:19, 1 Corinthians 2:14, John 15:16, Matthew 22:14 and Romans 9:11-25. I have. So instead of taking verses out of context with the whole bible, you need to reconcile them together with all scripture. And until you do that, you will continue to distort the bible.
"for many are invited but few are chosen."
And this is God's plan...to save some.
It's what He did for whatever reason.
No one understands. It is unfathomable.
Again, what God isn't doing is saving all.
He didn't wish it and didn't do it. Dunno why.
He did what He did for whatever reason He did it.
This chaps a lot of folk, don't really know why.
I just stated what God is doing-NOT saving all.
Be mad at God...He's the decision maker.
Everyone will not be in Heaven. That's universalism.
Potential universalism is ALL have a chance.
How does man having a chance glorify God ?
And is that the gospel ? Sounds like the lottery.
Is the message, "you might get saved" ?
No, God has His elect that are chosen & foreordained.
We all here are elect, chosen, and saved. Praise God !
You seem to think that I disagree with your take on what the Bible says because it "chaps" me? Not at all.
I disagree because I don't see the Bible as saying anything close to what you say.
Of course not everyone will be in heaven. That's clear.
What is also clear is that God doesn't want anyone to perish, and that since He loved the whole world, He sent His son to die for all.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 7:22:52 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
ALL is exactly what it means.
What definition are we using ? Yours ?
Look, I know for the Arminian mousetrap
to work correctly all must be ALL men.
But, this is not the case...
Listen how we talk, what words we often use.
Everyone, all, whole, everybody...and such.
Was everybody really at the party ? No !
We use literary devices. A "synecdoche".
Read these carefully, try and find error !
All is not all and cannot be all ...LOOK !
All is the greater part: when ALL is not all
Matthew 3:5 (King James Version)
5Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
Matthew 8:34 (King James Version)
34And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.
Mark 1:33 (King James Version)
33And all the city was gathered together at the door.
John 10:8 (King James Version)
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Matthew 10:22 (King James Version)
22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 21:26 (King James Version)
26But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
Matthew 24:9 (King James Version)
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake
Luke 15:1 (King James Version)
1Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
1 Corinthians 9:19 (King James Version)
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1 Corinthians 9:22 (King James Version)
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Colossians 1:28 (King James Version)
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Genesis 24:10 (King James Version)
10And the servant took ten camels of the camels of his master, and departed; for all the goods of his master were in his hand:
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 7:26:05 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
So because non-reformists don't like the fact that God does the choosing instead of each individual person, they change the bible to make it say what their itching ears want to hear.
Which is confusing & mind boggling.
God chose them. God chose you & I.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 7:36:22 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
ALL is exactly what it means.
What definition are we using ? Yours ?
Look, I know for the Arminian mousetrap
to work correctly all must be ALL men.
But, this is not the case...
Listen how we talk, what words we often use.
Everyone, all, whole, everybody...and such.
Was everybody really at the party ? No !
We use literary devices. A "synecdoche".
Read these carefully, try and find error !
All is not all and cannot be all ...LOOK !
All is the greater part: when ALL is not all
Matthew 3:5 (King James Version)
5Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
Matthew 8:34 (King James Version)
34And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.
Mark 1:33 (King James Version)
33And all the city was gathered together at the door.
John 10:8 (King James Version)
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Matthew 10:22 (King James Version)
22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 21:26 (King James Version)
26But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
Matthew 24:9 (King James Version)
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake
Luke 15:1 (King James Version)
1Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
1 Corinthians 9:19 (King James Version)
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1 Corinthians 9:22 (King James Version)
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Colossians 1:28 (King James Version)
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Genesis 24:10 (King James Version)
10And the servant took ten camels of the camels of his master, and departed; for all the goods of his master were in his hand:
That's it? From everything I've written, you give me verses where all may not mean all, so you assume all doesn't mean all on the ones which would otherwise be devastating to limited atonement?
Did you have a little giggle at using another derogatory term for someone else's beliefs? "Mousetrap". Does that just brighten your day when you do that?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 7:42:31 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Oh no. There's that entitlement mentality again that everyone deserves heaven just because he was born. You couldn't be further from the truth. It's the exact opposite. None of us deserves heaven. It's a gift from God to those to whom he is pleased to give it as Matthew 11:25-27 explains perfectly. It's God who does the choosing as He tells us all over the bible. "You did not choose me. I chose you.'
Everyone Jesus died for is saved.
These are the all, elect, whosoevers.
To say Jesus came to save all and didn't-
opens the door for UNbelievers scoffing.
God looks weak, impotent, and indecisive.
God cannot execute, complete, or finish.
Those in the church are the ones chanting
everyone can, and this alienates and is
confusing to the UNbeliever. At some level
the reprobate looks at you (the elect saved)
and is dumbfounded how to become like you.
IOW, how are the Arminans saving folk ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 7:48:28 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
That's it? From everything I've written, you give me verses where all may not mean all, so you assume all doesn't mean all on the ones which would otherwise be devastating to limited atonement?
You are "free" to interpret as you wish.
All is not always all.
World is not always world.
This is not my teaching or my creation.
These are literary devices, figures of speech.
These mandatory literary devices are applicable.
The Arminian is interpreting and inserting his own
subjective, individual interpretation into the language.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 7:51:02 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
It matters only in the understanding...Christ/God didn’t will the Israelites to reject Him. That’s a condition that has enveloped mankind from birth. Since Adam all men have rejected God by nature and you know that without some catalyst all men are blind to the things of God. Sure God is evident in nature but natural man will always find an excuse other then God. If they do seek God they will do it in their fashion…not the way prescribed by God.
Christ presented Himself to all and all clearly have the opportunity to accept Him but the reality of the fact is that only a few have the veil removed that allows them to fully understand who Christ is and only those are granted the faith to accept. Even with this drawing they still have to hear the gospel and to accept in their hearts.
This statement will have no effect on anyones outlook but I feel that I have to make the effort.
Bob
Thank you sir !!!
It effected me and I'm sure others as well !
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 8:17:26 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
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Question, If I am not mistaken don't Calvinist believe people are born again then they accept Christ? If that is the case how did people in the old testament chose God? They were not born again. People could not be born again until after the death/resurrection of Christ. So if that is the case how could the old testament saints please God? There sins were not forgiven only postponed until Christ, hence why they didn't go to heaven when they died, but paradise (Abraham's Bosom)(They are in heaven now because Jesus took captivity captive and now when Christians die they go to heave because their sins are forgiving). So they had the free will to chose God. They were not born again and then chose God. They chose by their own freewill. Look at this verse. Deut 35:29 The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the LORD, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the LORD, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done I know we cannot please God until we become Christians, but to say that you are changed then you accept God doesn't line up with the bible.
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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 8:18:24 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
To reject something it has to be offered. To chose something it has to be offered with the option to reject it.
And not all are given this, are they ?
No, there is not a clear, real choice.
Not between Christ and eternal death.
If someone were given the abilities, the
faculties, and wherewithal to actually
choose, then everyone would choose Christ.
Unless, some are advocating all were given
an opportunity and some rejected Christ.
That's a whole different can of worms...
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 8:21:26 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Unless, some are advocating all were given
an opportunity and some rejected Christ.
That's a whole different can of worms...
That is my view.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 8:35:46 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Unless, some are advocating all were given
an opportunity and some rejected Christ.
That's a whole different can of worms...
That is my view.
How is this possible ?
Literally, ALL men have access to God ?
I don't agree, not because of aloofness,
spite, or condescension, but another reason.
It simply doesn't happen. All have a choice ?
With what choice are they confronted with ?
I don't see how they can be...EVERY potential
effect, consequence, tangent, and reaction ?
To carry this to the next level...
We are surrounded by people who have
been unequivocally and with certainty, been
presented the consequences of rejecting
Jesus as Savior, Lord, Redeemer, and still
concluded that eternal life was worthless ?
There is NO WAY they understood, is there ?
Then explain how and why you choose right-
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 8:40:40 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
God reveals His Truth to everyone, and each one is accountable for their own decision whether to believe or reject.
God brings us to the point of decision ?
The rest is on man's shoulders ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 8:44:59 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Manna -
Would you please explain this verse to me?
Jeremiah 26:19 (NASB)
"Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death?
Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD,
and the LORD changed His mind about the misfortune which
He had pronounced against them?
God already knew and decreed the end result.
No one changes God's mind. God NEVER changes.
God repenting is another example of this.
Even prayer won't change what God has decided.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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