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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 1:06:26 AM
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contend4christ
Posts: 59
Joined: 6/12/2007
From: Los angeles
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quote:
Sola37
Read Romans 1 about why people reject the knowledge God
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
Actually I think Romans 1 deals more with how they rejected God. This gets to the heart of why men reject Christ.
John 3:18-19
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
So those who love darkness don't want anything to do with Christ. The question is what could make a man suddenly hate darkness so that he comes to the light and joyfully accepts Christ? is it God?
< Message edited by contend4christ -- 7/20/2008 5:21:29 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 1:22:49 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Why would it bother God that man was evil, if he forced them to be that way? Then destroy them all because they were evil. If your line of thinking is correct, God didn't agree with what He had forced mankind to be like. That doesn't make sense.
Does the following sound to you like God forced mankind to be evil?
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see His invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship Him as God or even give Him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.
Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. (Rom 1:20-24) NLT
Bob
As usual, non-reformists never reconcile all scripture together.  So again, put those verses together with Romans 11:8,
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so they could not see and ears so they could not hear, to this very day." Notice that it says, "God gave them..."
Then put your verses together with; Matthew 11:25-27, Matthew 22:14, and romans 9:11-25. And until you put scripture together instead of try to make it contradict itself, you will never understand God.
One can't take bits and pieces from here and there and say it goes together without taking into context the surrounding verses of each bit and piece, such as exactly who is being spoken to and the general subject of the speech. You can make "as usual" comments and lump all bad things in a pile and stick the label on the group which disagrees with you about what the Bible says if you want; it doesn't add anything to your argument. Scripture doesn't contradict itself. It is all clear when you allow it to say only what it says and do not make it say anything more.
So what scripture have I contradicted?  Zero. I've put Romans 1:18-31 together with all scripture instead of making it contradict any scripture. You, on the other hand have denied God's sovereignty, have claimed that God is not in control of Satan or men's hearts when the bible clearly says that he is. So you are minimizing God's power and elevating man's power which is not biblical but instead, comes from pride, not the humility that comes from the Holy Spirit.
So anyone who disagrees with you on what the Bible says is not humble but proud? Come on! It is possible to discuss this without resorting to things like that.
I have not denied God's sovereignty. What the Bible clearly states is that God's mercy is for all, not a select few, like you claim. You are minimizing God's mercy. God could easily control everything, but in His infinite love, He allows people to stray. He is so merciful that He hears men's cries and actually responds. It's amazing, but it's the love of God.
I know what comes from the Holy Spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control come from the Holy Spirit. I have tried to show these qualities in my discussions. I will know who teaches the truth by who displays these qualities. That's what the Bible says. Human wisdom and logic, in the end, mean nothing, compared to the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Maybe, for this reason, we should all try and respect one another a little more, no?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 1:43:21 AM
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contend4christ
Posts: 59
Joined: 6/12/2007
From: Los angeles
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
They are not able to enter, maybe they don't have enough will power?
You have unwittingly, perhaps, advanced this discussion more than you know with your comment about will power.
I imagine most of the reformed view free will as using one's will power. However, how do we view will power?
Let's say a smoker finally believes the health risks of smoking and decides to quit. The decision to quit was based on accepting as true the health risks. But the decision to quit is merely an action. The believing of the health facts have nothing to do with the action of stopping smoking, since there are a lot of smokers who know all the facts and still smoke. Just ask any non smoker how hard it was to stop? They had to use lots of will power. So, will power has nothing to do with believing anything, but has everything to do with carrying out actions.
I hope you can see the difference. Free will is about choosing from among options. Will power is about getting a job done.
See I think this is where I'm getting confused as to what your beliefs are. You may have to go into more detail for me as to what you believe as far as free will. I know you believe man has a choice between salvation and hell, and I say indeed he does. We obviously know that people choose according to their hearts desire. In John 3:18-19 we see men rejects Christ because they love darkness. However I think God works on some so that they no longer love darkness and they accept Christ. I want to know why and how you think some come to not love darkness and they choose the light instead? Do you believe the difference between us who decided to follow Christ and those who don't is our decision making ability or what? Because we definitely made the better choice.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 3:10:21 AM
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Sola37
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/19/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
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ORIGINAL: Carico
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ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Unless, some are advocating all were given
an opportunity and some rejected Christ.
That's a whole different can of worms...
That is my view.
So why do you think that atheists deny that God exists? So they can go to a hell that they know exists because they prefer eternal agony over eternal bliss?
So why do you think God created 95% of his creation to go to hell?
Because what is valuable is rare and what is common is less valuable. That means if God had created most people to go to heaven, then heaven wouldn't be anything special, just common. Then most people would see it as an entitlement and expectation rather than the gift that it is. 
So I answered your question, now you answer mine. Why do you think atheists deny that God exists? Because they can't wait to go to hell and suffer?
So the more people in heaven, the less valuable we become to God ? Do you have any insight as to what the limit of people in Heaven is before it stops being special and starts to be common ? I did not realize that eternal paradise with our Creator could ever be " common", regardless of how many people were there. I was under the impression that the more people in God's family, the better, since after all, He loved us enough to die for us. Oh wait, I forgot , He only loved the "elect" that much, not the whole world ....
Truly incredible the way a Calvinist mind works
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 4:26:05 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3648
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
If man truly has no free will choice, then what is the purpose of all the warnings in the Bible ?
Why does God warn man not to do something that man has no freedom to choose either way ?
Makes absolutely no sense ( If Calvinism were true)
God clearly says He takes no pleasure in the death of anyone,and pleads with man to repent and live:
"Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD . Repent and live! (Ezek 18:31-32) "
God's very clear man needs a new heart. Equally He is as clear man is unable to give himself a new heart. Can you give yourself a new heart? Can you circumcise your own heart?...nope, you can't. That's why God say HE will do it.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. -Ezekiel 36:26
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. -Deuteronomy 30:6
What makes no sense is man thinking his mind, his will, his spirit, his heart can choose for God without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Many just have no concept of the devastating effects of the Fall on mankind.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 4:32:41 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3648
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
If you HAD been paying attention ... As for anyone not "paying attention", you've got the market cornered on that one.
quote:
...you would know WHY those who received the evidence didn't get further light. Actually, had you been paying attention, you would have noticed that received means they BELIEVED the evidence they were given.
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You can't have it both ways. You've said in the past if people receive/believe some "light" God will give them more; but, this is not necessarily true - that is my point - they still die unsaved.
Your "point" is lost on Cornelius, who demonstrated a man who kept believing the divine light that God was giving him.
You seem to be laboring under the impression Cornelius is the ONLY person mentioned in Scripture, or for that matter in the whole world. The fact remains, a fact which, btw, proves your theories wrong, that many receive and BELIEVE the light given to them but it does them no good - they remain unsaved.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 4:33:56 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3648
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
When the Bible speaks of work, it refers to that which results in earning something. Do you agree?
When someone believes, it doesn't "earn" the believer anything. Do you agree?
According to the freewill position, it most definitely earns you salvation. You don't like to use the word "earn", nonetheless, if it's your belief that gets you saved you have EARNED it.
Why aren't you paying any attention? Look at my sentence: When someone believes, it doesn't earn the believer anything. Do words mean anything to you? Or is this all just way over your head? That's your problem, you think people aren't paying attention when, in fact, it is always you who doesn't pay attention.
What makes you think others believe that somehow your sentence reflects the truth?...many don't. Sure, it reflects "your" truth; but, not biblical truth.
Your faith comes from your own will, your own as yet unregenerated heart. It is ALL of your own doing; and, it thereby EARNS you salvation and you have every reason to boast.
quote:
I hvae repeatedly stated that our faith doesn't save us. God saves believers. Remember that? That is my pov. Please get it.
Please remember, FG, if that faith of yours comes to you aside from it being the gift of God, you have earned your salvation and have every reason to boast. After all: What have you that you did not receive? -1 Corinthian 4:7
I hope you do eventually "get it".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 4:36:16 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3648
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
According to the freewill position, it most definitely earns you salvation.
Your comments continue to demonstrate why it's pointless discussing anything with you. I have repeated noted that God saves those who believe, and that we are saved by grace through faith. Your continual and purposeful mischaracterizations of my pov only demonstrates your lack or character and integrity, since you have no excuse for doing so.
Actually, the only thing lacking here is the inability to face the fact that a libertarian freewill earns you the right to be saved. Now, I know it's not pleasant for freewillers to hear this, nevertheless it remains true.
The freewiller has an ability most of humanity doesn't have. It is the freewiller's unique holiness, humility, intelligence or something which enables him to "see" that which most do not.
And because of the freewiller's unique ability he becomes saved - that is earning salvation.
Oh, and btw, it's much more profitable if you'd concern yourself with your own integrity and character....plenty enough to keep you busy.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 4:37:30 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3648
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Obviously some don't read posts-surprise
Or your happy scissors are out of control !
#31503
Your version of freewill DOESN'T exist !
I've taken to using "libertarian" freewill a few times since we're dealing with those who apparently don't understand what they are discussing.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 4:38:39 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3648
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men (Romans 5:18).
If "condemnation to all men" means all are condemned regardless of their choice in the matter, then why doesn't "justification of life to all men" mean that all are justified regardless of their choice in the matter?
On the other hand if "justification of life to all men" means only those who choose to be justified, then why doesn't "condemnation to all men" mean only those who choose to be condemned?
We see evidence of "condemnation to all men" in many other passages in Scripture so we know it literally means every single individual without exception.
Just as we see evidence elsewhere in Scripture that not all(every single individual without exception) are justified.
There's no big mystery...just by comparing scripture with scripture we get the answer.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 5:26:12 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3648
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
This is turning in circles now. Faith and works are separate in the Bible, and therefore must be separate in our lives. "tool" implies work, so it's not the best analogy since faith and works are separate. Plus, "works" are plainly (to me) visible acts. Read James. Actually, works are not always visible. Praying is not always visible, loving is not always visible, obeying God is not always visible and our faith is not visible - still, nonetheless, it is a work.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
These are the fruits or "works'"of the Spirit. They are the results of God working in us, and among them is listed faith. Faith is the fruit that will show up in our lives because of the Spirit.
I'm looking at "works" as defined in James. I know the fruits of the spirit. You can go around labeling everything a work if you'd like, I suppose. I still believe that faith is much more a conduit for God's grace than a tool. "grace through faith", not "grace by the fashioning of faith".
LOL...I didn't label it a work....the Holy Spirit did...take it up with Him if you disagree fruits are works.
quote:
These are precisely the people who need to seek God. The Bible clearly states that men seek God, just as the Bible clearly states that God does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. I'm just relaying what the Bible says, because I believe the Bible is the Word of God.
The problem is you're not relaying "all" the Bible has to say on the subject...it seems you prefer what appears to agree with your position. You must also consider the condition of the unregenerated heart. You must also consider God says that NONE seek Him - no, not one. And you must also consider that the Bible says both faith and repentance are the gifts of God. And, you must also consider the verses where God says He directs man's steps. I could go on; but, I'm sure you get the point.
quote:
That would violate His promise to show all men mercy, would it not?
"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
Is God show His mercy when He sends man into eternal condemnation?.....or is He showing His justice?
Besides, those verses are NOT saying God is merciful to all men. He is simply including the Gentiles along with the Jews. Compare these verses to Gal 3:22 to get a better understanding of exactly who the "all" is that is being shown mercy.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 5:37:48 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3648
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Bible is clear that the Father ordained the death of Jesus Christ "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God"(Acts 2:23) yet, He still holds the men that killed Him responsible.
Since God ordained it, could Judas have actually done differently? No...that's not possible....still, it is clear from Scripture God holds him and the others responsible for their sin.
Why do you think it would be any different before and after the Cross?
Apparently, God considers the freewill of man as He also ordains what will happen. God is able to do this. How does He manage it?...no one knows - "who can know the mind of God"; but, He clearly says He does.
Sure,i dont deny that - even by allowing us to have free will God's will still is done.
I dont think it has to be or one or the other. Neither do i think giving people FW makes God less sovereign.
So I babysit those 3 rugrats today, ok(just out of kidness, they are real monsters.) If i tell them they can choose what cartoon to watch, that doesnt mean their way overides mine or i am not the boss of them anymore. Sovereighnty can include giving the subordinated the will to choose, w/t making them the boss, no?
I think you're avoiding the example of God's determination of the Cross yet still holding man responsible. There was no way these men were not going to kill Christ - God ordained that they would. God determined, He ordained, yet, these men still by their own freewill killed Christ. That's how it worked then, that's how it works now.
Yes, man once had freewill to choose other than his nature(Adam); but, that was lost in the Fall..."for in the day that you eat of it you shall SURELY die..." Man's spirit is dead, he has lost the connection to God that Adam had. There is nothing in this world unregenerated man can do to please God - nothing...and that includes whatever faith man can muster up.
When man today decides he does as he pleases with regard to believing, there is a denial of the declaration of God where He says He elects, He chooses, He predestinates, He foreknows.
Without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, Satan remains the father of man and he continues to blind "his children of the dark". This slave to Satan will never have saving faith unless God first gives it to him.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 6:48:36 AM
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Sola37
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/19/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sola37
If man truly has no free will choice, then what is the purpose of all the warnings in the Bible ?
Why does God warn man not to do something that man has no freedom to choose either way ?
Makes absolutely no sense ( If Calvinism were true)
God clearly says He takes no pleasure in the death of anyone,and pleads with man to repent and live:
"Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD . Repent and live! (Ezek 18:31-32) "
God's very clear man needs a new heart. Equally He is as clear man is unable to give himself a new heart. Can you give yourself a new heart? Can you circumcise your own heart?...nope, you can't. That's why God say HE will do it.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. -Ezekiel 36:26
And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. -Deuteronomy 30:6
What makes no sense is man thinking his mind, his will, his spirit, his heart can choose for God without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Many just have no concept of the devastating effects of the Fall on mankind.
No one is arguing that God isnt the source of the new heart and new spirit, He most definitely is. He is pleading with man to come to Him to receive the new heart and spirit. God makes the offer of a new heart and spirit, man can choose to accept or reject the offer.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 7:51:07 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6417
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Here's the new Romans 9:11 made up by non-reformists:
"For after the twins were born and Esau rejected me but Jacob didn't, to show that it's man's works, not God's election that stands, she was told, 'the older will serve the younger because Esau rejected me and Jacob didn't." 
Let me ask you this: is sarcasm fruit of the Spirit or lust of the flesh?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 7:55:56 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6417
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Unless, some are advocating all were given
an opportunity and some rejected Christ.
That's a whole different can of worms...
That is my view.
So why do you think that atheists deny that God exists? So they can go to a hell that they know exists because they prefer eternal agony over eternal bliss?
The question is answered in Romans 1. When God makes evident His existence, power, nature and attributes to man, the fool (atheist) simply rejects the Truth of His existence. It's called "suppression of the Truth".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 7:59:41 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6417
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
I can not answer that question. I am not atheist. Maybe you should ask an atheist.
I have. and all of them say that they don't believe in heaven, hell and God. So no, people don't have free will
The very FACT that they rejected the Truth that God made evident to them proves they had free will. Remember, free will means only freedom of choice when faced with options. When God makes His existence evident, man is faced with a choice: to either believe or reject that Truth.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 8:07:11 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6417
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You seem to be laboring under the impression Cornelius is the ONLY person mentioned in Scripture, or for that matter in the whole world.
Not at all. I've noted that Cornelius is an example of a principle. Hopefully that should clear up what you seem to be laboring with concerning my pov.
quote:
The fact remains, a fact which, btw, proves your theories wrong, that many receive and BELIEVE the light given to them but it does them no good - they remain unsaved.
If you had followed my complete thought on this, you would have known that, like Cornelius, God provides "more light" in stages. Cornelius believed the Truth at each stage. At some point, as long as the person is believing the Truth that God provides, God will give more, up to the gospel, which is the only means of being saved, as you well know.
Romans 1 says God made evident His existence to all. Cornelius believed that, and reverenced Him and prayed continually. He was still unregenerate.
Acts 10 says God sent an angel to Cornelius. Cornelius believed that angel. He was still unregenerate.
Acts 10 says God sent Peter with the gospel. Cornelius believed the gospel and was saved and regenerated.
Only the last stage offered salvation.
Which of these 3 "stages" do you disagree with?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 8:11:08 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6417
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
According to the freewill position, it most definitely earns you salvation.
Your comments continue to demonstrate why it's pointless discussing anything with you. I have repeated noted that God saves those who believe, and that we are saved by grace through faith. Your continual and purposeful mischaracterizations of my pov only demonstrates your lack or character and integrity, since you have no excuse for doing so.
Actually, the only thing lacking here is the inability to face the fact that a libertarian freewill earns you the right to be saved.
Could you define what you mean by the term "libertarian free will"? I define free will as freedom to choose between options available.
If your definition of "LFW" doesn't equal my definition, you are arguing against a phantom. I don't argue a false definition of FW.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 11:43:48 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: McFatty
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: McFatty
This is turning in circles now. Faith and works are separate in the Bible, and therefore must be separate in our lives. "tool" implies work, so it's not the best analogy since faith and works are separate. Plus, "works" are plainly (to me) visible acts. Read James. Actually, works are not always visible. Praying is not always visible, loving is not always visible, obeying God is not always visible and our faith is not visible - still, nonetheless, it is a work.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
These are the fruits or "works'"of the Spirit. They are the results of God working in us, and among them is listed faith. Faith is the fruit that will show up in our lives because of the Spirit.
I'm looking at "works" as defined in James. I know the fruits of the spirit. You can go around labeling everything a work if you'd like, I suppose. I still believe that faith is much more a conduit for God's grace than a tool. "grace through faith", not "grace by the fashioning of faith".
LOL...I didn't label it a work....the Holy Spirit did...take it up with Him if you disagree fruits are works.
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These are precisely the people who need to seek God. The Bible clearly states that men seek God, just as the Bible clearly states that God does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. I'm just relaying what the Bible says, because I believe the Bible is the Word of God.
The problem is you're not relaying "all" the Bible has to say on the subject...it seems you prefer what appears to agree with your position. You must also consider the condition of the unregenerated heart. You must also consider God says that NONE seek Him - no, not one. And you must also consider that the Bible says both faith and repentance are the gifts of God. And, you must also consider the verses where God says He directs man's steps. I could go on; but, I'm sure you get the point.
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That would violate His promise to show all men mercy, would it not?
"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
Is God show His mercy when He sends man into eternal condemnation?.....or is He showing His justice?
Besides, those verses are NOT saying God is merciful to all men. He is simply including the Gentiles along with the Jews. Compare these verses to Gal 3:22 to get a better understanding of exactly who the "all" is that is being shown mercy.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Exactly where did the Holy Spirit label it a work?
The Bible doesn't say that none seek Him. In fact, the Bible indicates in more than one place that people DO seek Him.
God has directed the steps of people, but He doesn't control everyone at all times. The Bible is clear about this as well. People have gone against His will and incited His wrath before. God has changed His mind because people have pleaded with Him before. This is all in the Bible.
God doesn't send men to eternal condemnation. Men send themselves. In fact, God doesn't desire that anyone should perish. The Bible says this as well.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 4:04:27 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6417
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: Carico
So since your made up gospel claims that Jesus is lying
That so? Did you know what Jesus said in Luke 11:9-10? If you did, you would not have made that comment.
"So I say to you: ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you, for everyone who asks received; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be open."
So, Jesus Himself promises that those who seek will find, which is basically the same promise found in 2 Chron 15:2.
Therefore, my gospel does not "claim that Jesus is lying". Seems to me, it is the other way around. You have claimed that Rom 3:11 is about everyone in the world.
How is it that no one seek God, since Jesus is promising exactly what 2 Chron 15:2 promises, and Cornelius demonstrates?
I know that the reformed view is that unregenerate man cannot seek God, but since Cornelus demonstrates one who did, that contradicts your theology.
Carico,
I don't recall that you answered my question in #31118. If you did, please direct me to the post, please.
If you did, do you have an answer? Thanks.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 4:19:58 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1855
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Sola37
So the more people in heaven, the less valuable we become to God ? Do you have any insight as to what the limit of people in Heaven is before it stops being special and starts to be common ?
i think i agree here. Unless it was just bad phrasing by your opponent, but saying that God created some for hell to make the saved ones appreciate their position by contrast, or to make the salvation more precious... No. This is purely human logic based on envy and greed, sort of like: if my neighbor has it bad my good feels better:) and in my view would contradict the Loving God i know.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 4:45:43 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1855
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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O:
even by allowing us to have free will God's will still is done.
I dont think it has to be or one or the other. Neither do i think giving people FW makes God less sovereign.
Kelman:
I think you're avoiding the example of God's determination of the Cross yet still holding man responsible. There was no way these men were not going to kill Christ - God ordained that they would. God determined, He ordained, yet, these men still by their own freewill killed Christ. That's how it worked then, that's how it works now.
Elaborate what you mean by freewill here, plz. I dont disagree, but i presumed your position was that people have no freewill... You mean they had a choice, it was up to them to do or not do it, they made the choice, influences and circumstances did not absolutely determine it?
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Yes, man once had freewill to choose other than his nature(Adam); but, that was lost in the Fall..."for in the day that you eat of it you shall SURELY die..." Man's spirit is dead, he has lost the connection to God that Adam had. There is nothing in this world unregenerated man can do to please God - nothing...and that includes whatever faith man can muster up.
When man today decides he does as he pleases with regard to believing, there is a denial of the declaration of God where He says He elects, He chooses, He predestinates, He foreknows
well, this is what i am not convinced about-i think Him giving us fw doesnt negate that he predestines and foreknows , etc. I dont see yet how FW negates Gods sovereighnty.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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