Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (Full Version)

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letsreason -> Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/17/2007 1:39:48 AM)

I had read several of the post on this site as well as other Christian forums and it is difficult to see how the church justifies the corporate functionality of the "Modern Church".

From the CEO (Senior Pastor) to the Janitor (Deacons) my experience has been in 3 church plants and serving at a large non denominational church that this model is not Biblical and doesn't work.

It can produce large numbers of attendees but is not designed for the main calling we all have of making disciples.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Lets Reason
www.LetsReasonTogether.com



timf -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/17/2007 7:26:44 AM)

it is difficult to see how the church justifies the corporate functionality of the "Modern Church"

In the movie Ghostbusters there is a scene where the dean of the college is about to have these paranormal "scientists" thrown off of campus. He tells Bill Murray, "Your methods are sloppy, your conclusions are dubious, and, in short, you are a poor scientist. Bill's rebuttal captures quite a lot. He says "Yeah, but the kids love us".

There are several reasons for the condition of today's church from traditional inertia to the lemming-like qualities instilled by exposure to public school. However, a big reason is that people like it this way. Satan has gone to a lot of trouble over centuries to institutionalize a "system" of religious practice that he can easily direct. One reason for his success is that he has made sure that he makes the church resonates with the flesh.

The process of tolerance, then acceptance, then support, and then elevation of homosexuality can be seen as just one example of his process of transforming Christians into a collective of stooges dancing to the tune he calls.

When you consider the number of Christians who defiantly fight for the right to kill their children or surgically mutilate their bodies to make sure that God cannot give them any more children, one can only see an apparently triumphant Satan laughing.

Religion today has much in common with the Pharisees. They got off track by trying to be and do what was "right". This does not sound bad until you consider that whoever decides what is "right" directs that whole group. Jesus shows us the way back to God. It is by following truth. Today many Christians are like pioneers trying to find their way back to truth and God from religions that have become Pharisaical institutions of self-righteousness. Like Nicodemus, we can follow truth and it will lead us back to Jesus and out of systems of dead religiosity.



nyst8ofmind -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/17/2007 11:00:06 AM)

I've often asked myself this question since receiving Christ in 1989. For me, it's a simply matter of lack of obedience to the Word and conforming to accommodate/make Christianity appealing to the world.

Instead of studying the Word and then being doers and not hearers only, many want to "eat" what feels good - the promises of God; but want to "spit out" the statues and commandments. God only asks us to love Him and we show that love by being obedient to the Word. Obedience sometimes means self denial - a concept many don't want to embrace. Christianity for many is nothing more than "I'll get saved so that God will give me this, that and the other" or "I don't want to go to hell". When infact we are saved to serve. We are saved to give not received. We are saved to live our lives as servants, not to go to God with our laundry lists of wants and expect that if we say the right thing, the right number of times, He'll deliver like Santa Claus.

Additionally, I think the church has conformed too much in an effort to not offend anyone and/or win the lost. Truth is absolute. Taking a stand for truth means we have to be courteous because truth isn't always embraced, and when it isn't we have to "stand" and not cave in to the pressures of the world, popular opinions, and being politically correct. I don't know the late time I heard someone minister Truth about what God says about hell, sin, LIVING HOLY etc. Many of the messages I see on TV and hear locally, are geared to the itching ears of those who want God to give them a bigger this, or better that.

From time to time, I find myself being lukewarm in my walk with God because it is so EASY to get caught up in the "talk" and be distracted by the cares of this world. When I'm "hot" for God and the things of His Kingdom, I get ridiculed as being a holy roller, and that's by other Christian. Thankfully, the Spirit convicts me when I've been in that place, and He gives me the courage I need to stand against the spirit of mediocrity which is quite prevelant in the church today.

JMHO ......



JimboFletch -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/17/2007 11:11:27 AM)

The Tabernacle of the Exodus was Judaism as intended by God in its infancy, they were a people in transition, and the Tabernacle was not a permanent place of worship & sacrifice. In God's time, the maturing Jews built the Temple.

The Acts 2 Church was the Church in its infancy, they were a people in transition and there methods/meeting places were not intended as permanent. In God's time, the Church grew and the maturing Church built permanent places of worship and service.

Eternal Principles don't change but methods, cultures, and practices do. To try to recapture the trappings of the 1st century Church is little more than superstition.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/17/2007 11:18:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: letsreason

I had read several of the post on this site as well as other Christian forums and it is difficult to see how the church justifies the corporate functionality of the "Modern Church".

From the CEO (Senior Pastor) to the Janitor (Deacons) my experience has been in 3 church plants and serving at a large non denominational church that this model is not Biblical and doesn't work.

It can produce large numbers of attendees but is not designed for the main calling we all have of making disciples.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Lets Reason
www.LetsReasonTogether.com


I agree that churches are being run too much like businesses now, along with mission statements etc., but what, scripturally, do you see wrong with the "modern church" and why do you think the church in Acts 2 is the model church?

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

The Tabernacle of the Exodus was Judaism as intended by God in its infancy, they were a people in transition, and the Tabernacle was not a permanent place of worship & sacrifice. In God's time, the maturing Jews built the Temple.

The Acts 2 Church was the Church in its infancy, they were a people in transition and there methods/meeting places were not intended as permanent. In God's time, the Church grew and the maturing Church built permanent places of worship and service.

Eternal Principles don't change but methods, cultures, and practices do. To try to recapture the trappings of the 1st century Church is little more than superstition.


Agreed.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/17/2007 11:27:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

The Tabernacle of the Exodus was Judaism as intended by God in its infancy, they were a people in transition, and the Tabernacle was not a permanent place of worship & sacrifice. In God's time, the maturing Jews built the Temple.

The Acts 2 Church was the Church in its infancy, they were a people in transition and there methods/meeting places were not intended as permanent. In God's time, the Church grew and the maturing Church built permanent places of worship and service.

Eternal Principles don't change but methods, cultures, and practices do. To try to recapture the trappings of the 1st century Church is little more than superstition.


Agreed. I find it odd that so many people are upset by the way the "modern church" goes about "doing church." You would think it woul dhave more to do with having a heart for the Lord and reaching people but, in the end, it is (usually) that they want you to change the way you "do chuch" to the way they want you to "do church."

Early churches met in homes, so people say that meeting in homes is the way to go. Well, I have no problem with any group of believers that meet in the name of Chriat and worship God in Spirit and truth, regardless of where they meet. But what people either ignore or don't understan is that the early church met in homes because they were being kicked out of synagogue, persecuted, uprooted, etc.

People say they sold everything and had all things in common and so should we - except in all the epistles to the churches (and bishops of churches) we see no commandment to do so and no church is commended for doing so. The early church expected the return of Christ during their lifetime. They thought they would have no need for their things and they sought to do good with the money they got for selling them.

Acts is, first and foremost, a history of the early church and the ministries of Peter and Paul.

Do things need to change inthe church? Yes. Are churches to much like businesses today? Yes. But these will not be solved by church changing how we "do church" or attempting to model church structure on the early church. These problems will be solved only when the people in churches today, regardless of form or organization, focus on Christ and strive to live a life that pleases God. This was why the early church grew, not because of how they were structured.



Lapidoth -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/17/2007 11:43:30 AM)

quote:

These problems will be solved only when the people in churches today, regardless of form or organization, focus on Christ and strive to live a life that pleases God. This was why the early church grew, not because of how they were structured.


That's the only way to solve any problem. lol.
On our knees with all humility.

I laugh when people come in complaining about how the last church "did"
church. We are different than all churches, so they like it at first, but it
isn't a month or two and they want us to do and teach what the church they
left did and teach. I wonder and ask, then why did you leave?
Usually and selfish reason or a issue of control.



Lapidoth -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/17/2007 11:47:34 AM)

If we want a 'first church' we would have to obey the scripture.

Train up a child in the way they should go, and when they mature,
they will continue in the faith.

By the time our kids reach 12 or 13 they can out quote anyone in scripture.
Then they make their own decisions with the advice of the elders for the
next 17 years. Those decisions are based on biblical knowledge. The elders
by experience can give the pros and cons of the actions taken.
[Cut off a limb while on the limb and find yourself on the ground]

Then by the time they are nurtured, educated in the ways of God, at the age
of 30 they arrive at "full stature."



lilone -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/17/2007 9:38:45 PM)

While I would agree that there are MANY problems with our modern (especially Americanized) churches, I'm wondering why so many people assume that the only truly "biblical" model of church is in Acts 2...?



rcjames -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/18/2007 8:43:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lilone
I'm wondering why so many people assume that the only truly "biblical" model of church is in Acts 2...?


I agree that focusing on the second chapeter of Acts is tunnel vision. A broader truer benchmark would be all of the Epistles, especially those written by Paul.

Thanks
RC



lightshineon -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/18/2007 8:59:32 AM)

They truly loved one another. They gave one to another, when one was in need, they fellowshiped ( broke bread togather), they were like minded. Sounds much differnt than todays nchurch. Love was the Key.



letsreason -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/18/2007 9:51:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane

quote:

ORIGINAL: letsreason

I had read several of the post on this site as well as other Christian forums and it is difficult to see how the church justifies the corporate functionality of the "Modern Church".

From the CEO (Senior Pastor) to the Janitor (Deacons) my experience has been in 3 church plants and serving at a large non denominational church that this model is not Biblical and doesn't work.

It can produce large numbers of attendees but is not designed for the main calling we all have of making disciples.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Lets Reason
www.LetsReasonTogether.com


I agree that churches are being run too much like businesses now, along with mission statements etc., but what, scripturally, do you see wrong with the "modern church" and why do you think the church in Acts 2 is the model church?

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

The Tabernacle of the Exodus was Judaism as intended by God in its infancy, they were a people in transition, and the Tabernacle was not a permanent place of worship & sacrifice. In God's time, the maturing Jews built the Temple.

The Acts 2 Church was the Church in its infancy, they were a people in transition and there methods/meeting places were not intended as permanent. In God's time, the Church grew and the maturing Church built permanent places of worship and service.

Eternal Principles don't change but methods, cultures, and practices do. To try to recapture the trappings of the 1st century Church is little more than superstition.


Agreed.


My premise when starting this string was that, what God started in the Spirit man thinks he has "perfected" in the flesh and that we have lost the simplicity of God's work: They gave one to another, when one was in need, they fellowshipped ( broke bread together), they were like minded.

How is the modern church doing? Divorce has risen & people attend our churches living together and no one says anything, churches keep building larger and nicer buildings, pornography is growing in the church membership, pastor worship has risen, there is division is the body between denominations on basic doctrinal truths, lack of reverence for God & His Word. A lot of the modern churches don't have you bring and read from your Bible any longer because the message is about the pastor’s thoughts and not God's instructions.

The purpose of the church is to equip the Saints for the work of the ministry. When you look at the fruit that has resulted from the modern church models, I see very little signs of anyone being equipped.

Obviously the epistles included instructions on the Christian life and the requirements of the leadership in the church but what the American church has evolved into doesn't represent the intent of the Pentecostal beginnings of the Christians meetings. It is not able to minister to the individual which is why they now are going to home groups for Biblical accountability and intimacy.

A few questions for those of you who believe the current church model is what Christ intended:

1. Please give me your Biblical position on the church setting its self up as a corporate model. Do you believe that building 5, 10, 20 million dollar buildings when the culture is collapsing is what God intended when He told us to not forsake the assembling together?

2. In Scripture, where do we see incorporating mans thoughts with God's to "reach" the culture? For example, the modern church now incorporates secular music into a worship service to a Holy God. Some even refrain from talking about the blood or sin so they don't offend anyone.

3. Where do we see the Pastor becoming superstars and very wealthy. Who is getting the glory?

The modern church has more resources than ever but yet the culture is turning from God. I have met MANY "Christians" that are pro-death (pro-choice), have no problem with homo-sexuality, rely more on 40 days of purpose instead of 40 days of reading their Bible, live with their boy/girl friend in sin etc.

How is it that Mega churches, like Lakewood church in Houston, have 40,000 + members but the area around their church has no hope and major social issues?

Thanks,

Lets Reason
www.LetsReasonTogether.com



StephK -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/18/2007 1:27:48 PM)

quote:

How is it that Mega churches, like Lakewood church in Houston, have 40,000 + members but the area around their church has no hope and major social issues?


Too often those churches are simply caught up in churchianity and are too inward focused on self centered things. The members are honestly clueless to the immediate needs of the area. It's messy and time consuming to deal with the real social issues of today. It doesn't always feel good and give warm fuzzies either.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/18/2007 5:39:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: letsreason

A few questions for those of you who believe the current church model is what Christ intended:

1. Please give me your Biblical position on the church setting its self up as a corporate model. Do you believe that building 5, 10, 20 million dollar buildings when the culture is collapsing is what God intended when He told us to not forsake the assembling together?

2. In Scripture, where do we see incorporating mans thoughts with God's to "reach" the culture? For example, the modern church now incorporates secular music into a worship service to a Holy God. Some even refrain from talking about the blood or sin so they don't offend anyone.

3. Where do we see the Pastor becoming superstars and very wealthy. Who is getting the glory?

The modern church has more resources than ever but yet the culture is turning from God. I have met MANY "Christians" that are pro-death (pro-choice), have no problem with homo-sexuality, rely more on 40 days of purpose instead of 40 days of reading their Bible, live with their boy/girl friend in sin etc.

How is it that Mega churches, like Lakewood church in Houston, have 40,000 + members but the area around their church has no hope and major social issues?



First, I did not endorse any model. Second, Neither I nor anyone else here has said they support any of your points above. Lastly, I'll repost what I said earlier:

quote:

Do things need to change inthe church? Yes. Are churches to much like businesses today? Yes. But these will not be solved by church changing how we "do church" or attempting to model church structure on the early church. These problems will be solved only when the people in churches today, regardless of form or organization, focus on Christ and strive to live a life that pleases God. This was why the early church grew, not because of how they were structured.


I have no problem with how small, large, rich, poor, or anything else a congregation is as long as they are preaching the gospel and making disciples of those who have been born again. It's not the model that's inherently flawed, it's the human heart.



Lapidoth -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/18/2007 8:17:16 PM)

It's not the model that's inherently flawed, it's the human heart.

amein.



phoenixme -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/18/2007 9:26:14 PM)

"Genuine relationships are vital to the fullest expression of the body of Christ. Yet that expression can only be realized to the degree that the individuals in fellowship with one another are full of him. If we forget our perceived need for fellowship with each other and make him alone our goal; we won’t be alone for long."

Quote: David Fredrickson



DaveW -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/19/2007 6:56:17 AM)

To the op:

Please understand that the body in Acts 2 (and up to chapter 10) was entirely ethnically and religiously Jewish. They met in the temple and synaogogues. They took the havdalah service for their own (sundown Saturday eve which is considered Sunday) and even dominated Solomon's Portico at the temple. They took part in animal sacrifice and took Nazirite vows(see Acts 21) .

Is that the church you want?



kernsfamily -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/19/2007 4:49:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane

quote:

ORIGINAL: letsreason

A few questions for those of you who believe the current church model is what Christ intended:

1. Please give me your Biblical position on the church setting its self up as a corporate model. Do you believe that building 5, 10, 20 million dollar buildings when the culture is collapsing is what God intended when He told us to not forsake the assembling together?

2. In Scripture, where do we see incorporating mans thoughts with God's to "reach" the culture? For example, the modern church now incorporates secular music into a worship service to a Holy God. Some even refrain from talking about the blood or sin so they don't offend anyone.

3. Where do we see the Pastor becoming superstars and very wealthy. Who is getting the glory?

The modern church has more resources than ever but yet the culture is turning from God. I have met MANY "Christians" that are pro-death (pro-choice), have no problem with homo-sexuality, rely more on 40 days of purpose instead of 40 days of reading their Bible, live with their boy/girl friend in sin etc.

How is it that Mega churches, like Lakewood church in Houston, have 40,000 + members but the area around their church has no hope and major social issues?



First, I did not endorse any model. Second, Neither I nor anyone else here has said they support any of your points above. Lastly, I'll repost what I said earlier:

quote:

Do things need to change inthe church? Yes. Are churches to much like businesses today? Yes. But these will not be solved by church changing how we "do church" or attempting to model church structure on the early church. These problems will be solved only when the people in churches today, regardless of form or organization, focus on Christ and strive to live a life that pleases God. This was why the early church grew, not because of how they were structured.


I have no problem with how small, large, rich, poor, or anything else a congregation is as long as they are preaching the gospel and making disciples of those who have been born again. It's not the model that's inherently flawed, it's the human heart.


Good one, Bro. Shane...

I don't have any problem with small, large, rich or poor churches......or wealthy/poor pastors, either.....as long as they are preaching the gospel and making disciples....and reaching "the lost" for Christ....

of all those things "listed" in those 4 points/questions....most of those do not describe my church at all.....even though, I just learned online at "TheChristianPost.com" earlier this week, that my church is the 14th largest in the country (not that really matters to me...or to the pastoral/ministerial staff of the church we go to) it's by far the most "biblically sound" church that my wife and I have ever had the privilege and blessing to be a part of....

we've been to some VERY small churches that have more accurately been described by those "4 points"....including, building BIG buildings on debt....without the NECESSITY of crammed quarters to do so....just a "whim" to "if we build it, they will come"...

I do want to bring up the comment about buildings, particularly large ones....I admit, we've got a VERY large church....and, what are we supposed to do? we've got 14,000 people A WEEK coming to our church to hear "The Word of God" preached from the pulpit, and taught in the scores of sunday school classes....are we to "settle" for a much smaller church building (say about 1,000), and tell all others that there's "no vacancy"?....or, are we to make sure that everyone who wants to come has a seat...and we have the room necessary in order to "preach the Gospel, make disciples, and build God's Kingdom"....



gmedifast -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/20/2007 10:20:53 AM)

For me, forget how the church is structured. What about loving one another and helping one another out? In my life time I have gone through several terrible trials. I am in the middle of one now. Both times it involved long illnesses with loss of work, financial issues. Both times the church I was/am associated with even with being a staff member has dropped the ball when it comes to supporting my family and myself through the difficult time. I am not even talking about financial support from the church, but even a lack of concern for what was going on. Not a phone call, not a letter, not a card, it hurts you to the core that you can go through so much and the church you are working so hard in does not seem to care at all.

The church is horrible at caring for it's on. A few weeks ago, after my wife and I got some horrible news I told her, you know I wish someone would act liked they cared that we are going through hell. I wish just one person would call and say I am praying for you. Recently we have been facing a horrible trial, my wife has been out of work for months due to an illness, our income was cut in 1/2, we have burned our savings and now we are surviving only because our bank will let us go into negative balances. No body has thought to ask us how we are doing. When things were going good for us, we had ample money to help so many people in their time of need. We have let people live with us, we have given money to people we have sowed and sowed in the lives of others, but now that we need help, no one offers. For groceries, we have resorted to going all over town to the food pantries.

The world takes better care of it's own, I guarantee if we were regulars at the local pub, they would have already done a benefit for us or place jar at the cash register for a collection.

So what has happened to the church as picture in Acts 2, we no longer see our things to help our brothers/sisters in need. We no longer taker care of the widows and orphane.



rcjames -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/20/2007 1:08:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmedifast
The church is horrible at caring for it's on. A few weeks ago, after my wife and I got some horrible news I told her, you know I wish someone would act liked they cared that we are going through hell.


First I will say that I am sorry for the troubles that you are having.

Secondly I must ask if the CHurch knows of the situation to which you are alluding.

Have you made the need known to the Church (both the Church and the individual members)?

Have you ask for their help and been turned down?

Far too many times folks just sit at home and feel sorry for themselves and do not let their needs be know, so nobody knows; not the Church nor the fellow believers so therefore they do not helpd for lack of knowledge.

Scripture says;

(Hos 4:6) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: ....

Thanks
RC

edited for spelling



DInsight -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/20/2007 2:01:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: letsreason

I had read several of the post on this site as well as other Christian forums and it is difficult to see how the church justifies the corporate functionality of the "Modern Church".

From the CEO (Senior Pastor) to the Janitor (Deacons) my experience has been in 3 church plants and serving at a large non denominational church that this model is not Biblical and doesn't work.

It can produce large numbers of attendees but is not designed for the main calling we all have of making disciples.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Lets Reason
www.LetsReasonTogether.com

The Acts 2 Church has not gone anywhere. She is alive and growing as gates of hell shall not and cannot prevail against her.

With Israel in captivity, God always had a remnant left. And the remnant, by the blessings of Abraham according to the faith of Abraham did multiply, became fruitful, replenished and subdued in the flesh.

How much more the living Church of our Lord Jesus Christ, who by all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies, have been given abounding riches of the grace of God.

All you have to do is shed off the scale called the "Modern Church" and see clearly the so-called Acts 2 Church. Or, eat the daily bread and be added daily to the Church.

But to think the so-called Acts 2 Church has gone away is to admit that the scale of the Modern Church still obscures ones vision.

Christ has the eye salve to enable us see clearly. Blessed be the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen!



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/20/2007 2:36:02 PM)

The Acts 2 Church is in my heart[;)] and in the heart of Jesus[:D]



gmedifast -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/20/2007 4:34:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmedifast
The church is horrible at caring for it's on. A few weeks ago, after my wife and I got some horrible news I told her, you know I wish someone would act liked they cared that we are going through hell.


First I will say that I am sorry for the troubles that you are having.

Secondly I must ask if the CHurch knows of the situation to which you are alluding.

Have you made the need known to the Church (both the Church and the individual members)?

Have you ask for their help and been turned down?

Far too many times folks just sit at home and feel sorry for themselves and do not let their needs be know, so nobody knows; not the Church nor the fellow believers so therefore they do not helpd for lack of knowledge.

Scripture says;

(Hos 4:6) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: ....

Thanks
RC

edited for spelling


My church is fully aware of our situation. My church is less than 60 people and on top of my them knowing my wife has not worked in months due to an illness, she has missed a lot of church over the past few weeks due to her illness. It is not like we are swallowed up in a 1000 membeer of 10000 member church we have been looking a one another's faces for years. For me it is not even about help with a powerbill or the church providing money. But a phone call, a card a note, anything to reach out and say I am praying for the situation.

Years ago when I went through my personal illness we were on staff at the church, again under 100 members, we lived in the church parsonage that was a 50 year old house paid for that we rented. In stead of the church letting us have the church for a reduced rent, we continued to have to pay the same amount. We later found out the pastor was pocketing the money. The church would have fellowships and in stead of bringing us some leftovers, they would throw the food into the garbage that we would have to put on the streets. One time there was 1/2 a cake just discarded.

One thing that did help was one of the Sunday School teachers did apolize for dropping the ball and he realized how much we had gone through without the church support.

I am not sitting around feeling sorry for myself. YOu don't know me or my family. But I will say over and over and over it has been my experience that the church does not care for it's own. Let me ask, how many cards, phone calls, show of concer have you put out over the last year?



hisglory7 -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/20/2007 8:29:20 PM)

hello everyone. I have been asking myself and God lately where the church from the book of acts has gone. the reality is this, the things that are happening in the church today has to happen. Why? because for so many of us we have lost sight of what is really important to God. We have become so caught up into our own lives that we have lost the purpose and the mission given to us by jesus himself. I believe that it is time for the genuine Christ lovers to stand and defend our God. No not that he needs us to defend Him but because we love Him. All of us on this blog has been guilty at some point in denying our saviour whether in word or in deed. The thing that we must do now is find a solution. We can complain about what is happening with the church until He comes back, or we can stand up and fight for our God.



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (10/21/2007 11:06:05 PM)

This is a topic I feel very passionately about, as through reading the Word of God I can see how the thing we call church today has slipped so far away from what God intended it has almost become a joke. Clergy have a difficult time excepting that there is something flawwed about the church. I can understand that, the current institutionalized church pays for their bread and butter. But another portion of this, is that the whole idea of "clergy" and "laity" is not endorsed by the Bible. In fact it's spoken against. In the book of Revelations it is frowned on.

What we call "the church" today is exactly as the op has suggested, a corporate religious venture. What is lacking is not whether there are buildings of stone, or plush seating, It's how it operates. This is NOT suppose to change. God was not asking for people to create rituals and paid offices such as we now have. No. He was saying to operate in your gift. And to help one another, share your lives. People in church are suppose to act out their gifts and the collective gifting that they have makes them either a teacher, preacher, etc. etc. This does not mean the special gifts entitle them to any financial restitution. The concept of tithing is an untruth that goes back many years; and the fact that no one has unearthed that and thrown it out arouses great distress.

It's easy as a pastor to say, "My sheep are fed." It's easy, because you don't know what is going on in their lives. You are not as intimate with them as you should be. But I don't fault pastors, many pastors do not even know what their function is within the body of Christ. People talk about "full time ministry" as though it is an "option" for christians. Full time ministry is for EVERYONE. We are suppose to support each other when there is need.

The current institutionalized church in it's operation is so far from what God intended in the Acts Church. Maybe a house would not be practical for some bodies of believers, but no matter where you choose to gather, that body should behave like the one described in Acts. I know people leaving the church today, and its for the very same reason. Because it is no longer relavant. Why is it not relavant? It's irrelevant, because it is not speaking to real christians.

Christians are admonished to fellowship. Not listen to a 30min-1hr Sermon. Christians are suppose to share. Not sit up and shut up in silence. We are suppose to have communion with each other.

And always, those who champion the institutionalized church say that such churches would be unworkable because they need to be ran descently and in order. So, basically, they are saying that people are incapable of civility? Hmmm. If they could do it hundreds of years ago, I don't see why we couldn't do it now.

You see, it's difficult for church to be relavant, to really reach us where we need to be touched, because it's a paid club. Preachers, cannot preach the "hard core" stuff or they might lose parshners (also known as paycheck writers/bread and butter). I understand the politics. They can't offend.

While I like Joel Osteen, imagine if he were to get up on Sunday morning and preach a purity, get your life right with God sermon? he'd probably lose half of his audience in the first 10 minutes. And he'd probably lose the rest in the coming weeks. And then, how would he pay the rent on that stadium?

One thing I've learned as a Christian, and that is christians grow a lot when they share with each other, in talking, listening, mourning together, rejoicing, breaking bread. The bible says by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of their testimony they overcame. yes, we have the blood of the lamb, but we're missing that second key ingredient. And I just don't mean a standup witnessing. We need that interaction, that conversation, that intimacy. I've overcome and learned so much by actually interacting with Christians rather than sitting under a man/woman preaching God's word. We learn by sharing. It is not fair or right to the preacher or the "parishners" that only the preacher gets to share what God has been showing him. He needs to hear from others what God has been showing them. God doesn't only talk to the pastor, he doesn't only work in the life of the pastor.

It is so essential that we draw togther for real fellowship. The times are getter darker, and believers need that collective strength. Without it many will wither and die. People are dying of thirst, and starvation. We need each other, and we need each other in such a way as to not just sit behind one another listening to the speaker/preacher.

We are the body of Christ. Can you exactly tell me how the current institutionalized church acts as a body? How is every member contributing to that body (not the building, not ushering, not nursery not anything like that) but to the body and its growth and nourishment in Christ?

We are also known as a family. Can you tell me how the institutionalized church is acting like a family? How is it that some children are allowed to speak and others are not? Why is it some go off poor and distitute while others live sumptuously? Is this a real picture of a family? NO.

Where are we? Are we so blind and enamored with our current system that we cannot see the gaping holes? Is it possible, that just for a moment, we could look at this thing differently. Could we say, hey, does the person on row 2 actually know the person on row 5. Do I know the gifts of the people who always sit here or there? I wonder if the young lady in the corner needs help with her tuition. Is it possible that we could look at ourselves critically? Isn't it quite possible that in God's lexicon, EVERYONE is in fulltime ministry?

Instead of trying to look at the problem, we point to the people who make an exodus and we say, they just didn't like it. They had issues/problems. They were bitter. They didn't like authority. They were unteachable. etc. etc.

Why is it we are not seeing fruit coming from the institutionalized church? The Bible says and you will know them by their fruit. When I look at what is coming out of the church, it paints quite a different picture than what God described. What fruits are coming from the insitutionalized church? Where are the Pauls, and the Stephens? Where are the miracles? Why aren't signs and wonders REALLY following them? And please, do not say, "I'm sorry that's not happening in your church, but mine is FILL IN THE BLANKS." The point is that this whole system isn't working.

God tore down the divide so that Chruch would look like this:

God & Sons

Man has created something like this:

God & Clergy & Sons.

It is the whole idea of clergy that has made the church in institution. Leadership in the Chruch of Jesus Christ is based on SERVICE. Servant Leader. That's the model. He who is least among you is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. Doubtless many thousands of wanda what's-her-names and Nameless joes will be wearing crowns in the Kingdom of Heaven and Biship R2D2 Williams and Pastor Big Shot will be mopping the floor in the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't see pastors who serve, I see pastors who are served. Even those that think they are sacrificing, by running here and there "preaching the feel good gospel" or even falling victim to "pastor schedules" will be shocked to hear they did not win the crown.

If I give my body to be burned, Paul said, and I have not love, I am nothing. If I give all of my substance to feed the poor and I have not love, I am a clanging cymbal. Why? If you love me, Jesus said, you will keep my commandments. Peter, feed my sheep. Have you really fed them? Have you really created a place where they can share, break bread, fellowship and commune together? If you cannot honestly say that for your "sheep" if you have been called a pastor, then you need to think long an hard about what it means to be a pastor and a church.



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