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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/22/2007 9:58:59 PM
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rafterman
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From what I have heard the Acts 2 church is alive and well. They're just not white americans. Christianity is exploding in India and China and other such places.
_____________________________
"my concern is not that God is on our side, but that we are on His" abe lincoln
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/22/2007 11:25:49 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letsreason
The purpose of the church is to equip the Saints for the work of the ministry. When you look at the fruit that has resulted from the modern church models, I see very little signs of anyone being equipped.
This is not the purpose of the church. This is the means to the end which is:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That is one reason the church is so "disabled". We are looking to the means to the end versus the goal which is "the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.
How much do you hear about the "goal" of the gifts being preached on? Very little. I have heard alot on the means to the end being preached on - pastors, teachers, etc. but not a word on the final goal - that we come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God...
Perhaps that is a reason why there is so little fruit...we are focusing on the wrong thing...we are not focusing on the "knowledge of the Son of God, Jesus Christ of Nazareth...
_____________________________
~Whom have I in heaven but thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ~
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/23/2007 8:59:11 AM
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1FEATHER
Posts: 196
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In the precedeing comments I read over and over such statements as," where has the acts 2 church gone?" or statements similiar.
Maybe I am assuming to much but this view is nationwide for the most part, and it appears most people believe that the church was at one time,much better than it is now. I agree whole heartedly.
But think for a moment,,,,,,,when the church was 'better', (and that would be very subjective from person to person) this country had just came out of the great depression and two world wars! During that time many people felt that they had to live a genuine christain life,pray much,etc.,etc.,,,,,,today,,,,,,,,,life is too easy.
The bottom line on this issue is not how to solve or correct this because that will not happen with man's ways or the church's ways. But isn't the bottom line, 'what is it going to take(as in an act of God),or what would have to happen (perhaps God's judgement?) to 'force' us if you will,to be like the church was that we keep referring to years ago.
I am completely convinced that this generation absolutely will not do it or any generation to come that this country produces without being 'forced' to,,,,hope I'm wrong!
< Message edited by 1FEATHER -- 10/23/2007 9:05:45 AM >
_____________________________
" I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures,helping them have a good time,and all I get is abuse,the existence of a hunted man." - Al Capone.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/23/2007 11:39:06 AM
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Sagcofc
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Our movement seeks to find what the early church did, not in culture but in spiritual practice, and discover what God's intention for his church is. Jesus said it well when God seeks worshipers who worship in spirit and in truth. Many churches have gotten away from that model, seeking fleshly entertainment. Some churches have lights, smoke, bands, singers, some have dancers, and everything else you would see in a rock concert or a las vegas show, while others have speakers who draw huge crowds and write award-winning books, own their own personal jets, and live a hollywood life. All of these things point to a church strongly influenced by our over-indulgent culture of fast food and fast religion. But the real problem has been mentioned before. If you walk into a church and no one cares about you, it doens't matter how great the entertainment is (I know not all churches are like that, but bear with me for a second) or how wonderful the speaker is, because their true needs are not being met. They aren't being loved. Jesus said "By this they will know that you are my disciples, when you have love one for another." Furthermore, the word of God has lost its power in churches, finding pulpits empty of content because they do not help people with the one struggle that beats us all: To help us overcome the struggles we have against the flesh and learn to live as spiritual beings. Sermons are not as practical as they need to be because they do not reflect the image of the glory of God. Spiritual beings will not be content with carnal worship, nor will carnal beings be content with spiritual worship. We need to revitalize the purity of worship, fellowship, and most importantly, the gospel of Jesus so that worshipers will indeed be spiritual beings worshiping God in spirit and in truth, because God is seeking such to worship him. Acts 2 gives the church intent, what God wanted the church to be then, and the principles of baptism, repentance, fellowship, sharing with those in need, the awe of God's spirit, and the teaching of the apostles through the word are still powerful, unchanged, and able to redeem us from the cult of the flesh so many still follow today.
And to the minister that has been ignored by the church he is a part of, I want you to know that being part of such a congregation is not beneficial. As a fellow minister, I have seen the good and the ugly in churches and how they treat you. I tell the church I am a part of that as long as they take care of me, I will give my all to them. The moment they don't take care of me, I look elsewhere. Though some do not like the idea of a paid minister, to give your life to ministry is putting your life in the hands of those whom you serve. If they do not spiritually provide, emotionally provide, and physically provide, how can a minister do what he has been called to do? I know this is for a different post, but I believe the church in Acts would not have treated you as this congregation has. Find a church that will care about you. The one I preach at loves me, supports me, helps me, encourages me, and tells me to never be afraid to ask for help when I need it. They call me when I'm sick, care about my health and well-being, and pray for me every day. This is the kind of congregation you need. Don't settle, because you have a family to take care of. You're worth more than that, and you are worth more to the Lord than that. If they don't take care of you they are worse than unbelievers. "Do not muzzle the ox while it treads grain." I will pray for you and your family. May the Lord bless you and keep you, and may you find an Acts 2 church that will love you and care for you. You are of great value. Never let anyone convince you otherwise.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/23/2007 1:02:25 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1FEATHER
In the precedeing comments I read over and over such statements as," where has the acts 2 church gone?" or statements similiar.
Maybe I am assuming to much but this view is nationwide for the most part, and it appears most people believe that the church was at one time,much better than it is now. I agree whole heartedly.
But think for a moment,,,,,,,when the church was 'better', (and that would be very subjective from person to person) this country had just came out of the great depression and two world wars! During that time many people felt that they had to live a genuine christain life,pray much,etc.,etc.,,,,,,today,,,,,,,,,life is too easy.
The bottom line on this issue is not how to solve or correct this because that will not happen with man's ways or the church's ways. But isn't the bottom line, 'what is it going to take(as in an act of God),or what would have to happen (perhaps God's judgement?) to 'force' us if you will,to be like the church was that we keep referring to years ago.
I am completely convinced that this generation absolutely will not do it or any generation to come that this country produces without being 'forced' to,,,,hope I'm wrong!
Feather, I hear what you are saying. However, if this was true (and perhaps it is) then what is inferred is that people's relationship with God was based simply on trials. Life goes bad, we go to God. Life is good, we don't need God so much. Most likely, we have all seen this kind of spirituality, and may have participated in it at some time in our walk. However this kind of relationship is not akin to a child only going to their parent when they are in a bind, not because they love the parent. This kind of relationship is an inmature relationship. Going to God (either personally, or corporately) when things are going poorly, is not a model relationship at all. (I am not saying that you believe this, just making a point)
If we are preaching a gospel, that is only affecting people when they are in a bad situation in life, then we are completely missing the boat. That makes the gospel about us, not about God.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/23/2007 5:07:03 PM
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1FEATHER
Posts: 196
Joined: 10/8/2007
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Floydette I think we are in agreement so much that our two posts,if arranged together just right would make the body of a fairly descent sermon.
Your point is very good,maybe I should say that your side of the equation is what I 'don't' see happening,thus my point for the need for God to have to break-up our fallow ground because we,collectivly as a church,won't. Jerry.
_____________________________
" I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures,helping them have a good time,and all I get is abuse,the existence of a hunted man." - Al Capone.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/23/2007 5:57:35 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 997
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1FEATHER
In the precedeing comments I read over and over such statements as," where has the acts 2 church gone?" or statements similiar.
Maybe I am assuming to much but this view is nationwide for the most part, and it appears most people believe that the church was at one time,much better than it is now. I agree whole heartedly.
But think for a moment,,,,,,,when the church was 'better', (and that would be very subjective from person to person) this country had just came out of the great depression and two world wars!
Was the church "better"?....perhaps in some ways...but, all the way around? maybe not.
I look around my congregation....and see people of a multitude of backgrounds and ethnicities....and, then think that when my parents were my age, people "of color" were simply not allowed to go to church "of their choosing"....the "white" congregation was steadfast in making sure that just didn't happen....today, people can CHOOSE to go wherever they want for church (at least I hope they can!)...at one time, that choice was not available to alot of people.
I see "mixed race" couples joining the church, and no one really giving it a second thought....but, at one time, it was AGAINST THE LAW for them to be married (thanks, in part, to preachers pointing out how "clear" in the Bible that doing such a thing was "wrong"), much less attend church together.....
So, in my eyes, I see a church that has "lifted the blinders" to accept all people of the community....regardless of inconsequential things such as color of skin, or other "issues", that today really are not "issues" at all...they were all just "stumbling blocks" to due to "tradition" and the stubborness of sin.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/23/2007 6:11:51 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 997
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sagcofc
Our movement seeks to find what the early church did, not in culture but in spiritual practice, and discover what God's intention for his church is. Jesus said it well when God seeks worshipers who worship in spirit and in truth. Many churches have gotten away from that model, seeking fleshly entertainment. Some churches have lights, smoke, bands, singers, some have dancers, and everything else you would see in a rock concert or a las vegas show, while others have speakers who draw huge crowds and write award-winning books, own their own personal jets, and live a hollywood life. All of these things point to a church strongly influenced by our over-indulgent culture of fast food and fast religion. But the real problem has been mentioned before. If you walk into a church and no one cares about you, it doens't matter how great the entertainment is (I know not all churches are like that, but bear with me for a second) or how wonderful the speaker is, because their true needs are not being met.
IF you walk into my church, you just might come to the conclusion that we have all the "negatives" you describe....we have the band, singers, lights (we have the lights, because our sermons are taped and broadcast throughout the world)....a las vegas show? perhaps not. My pastor does write some GREAT books, along with others on our church staff and in our congregation....what better way to communicate God's word and teachings to those who are unable to have the privilege of going to our church?....Speakers and large crowds? Anytime we have an "event" we draw a large crowd....sorry, we just have a mighty large church....guilty of that, too......you may think my pastor leads a "hollywood life"....that's debatable....
but, you know what? NONE of the above REALLY matters..... It's certainly a church that has PLENTY of people who care about us and our family (especially those in the children's ministry)....and people within the congregation that truly care....I could write ALL day about that....
our TRUE needs are met....substantially more than we could have ever thought possible...
In contrast, how many other MUCH MUCH smaller churches in our area, which we visited when looking for a church, treated us like "intruders" because we had the "nerve" to visit "THEIR" church (without a written invite, or something).....or, our previous, and VERY small church that we were members of, and, after 4 years of being there, we realized we felt like "visitors", and didn't really have "connection" with anyone.....then, we left that church, and no one noticed....
at my inlaws church in north arkansas, WE are all treated with "disdain"...and our kids treated like they have "the plague" because they were given the privilege of attending school at our neighborhood public school, and NOT homeschooled, like THEY all do it there....talk about not feeling welcome....or loved...we are "unrepentant sinners".....(OH...but, they all insist on singing ONLY the Southern Baptist Hymnal...and use ONLY the KJV bible, so, that makes them "OK"....in the eyes of my in-laws)....
TRUE NEEDS can be met in any size church.....and they can be IGNORED in ANY size church....it's the PEOPLE of the individual church that make it happen (or prevent it from happening), whether you have a church of 100 people or 25,000 people.
< Message edited by kernsfamily -- 10/23/2007 6:19:02 PM >
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/23/2007 10:39:36 PM
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1FEATHER
Posts: 196
Joined: 10/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1FEATHER
Floydette I think we are in agreement so much that our two posts,if arranged together just right would make the body of a fairly descent sermon.
Your point is very good,maybe I should say that your side of the equation is what I 'don't' see happening,thus my point for the need for God to have to break-up our fallow ground because we,collectivly as a church,won't. Jerry.
I will have to put that in my "future sermon" folder. 
I agee that we do not see the side of the picture portrayed in my post. My "question to ponder" is exactly how does God break up this harden ground of our souls? I think that we often hear that God will "bring us to our knees" or "(fill in the blank disaster) happened because God is trying to get our attention". But Paul says that it is God's KINDNESS that leads us to repentance. I think that often how God gets our attention is coming to the realization of how kind he really is, and how much he absolutely adores us. 
And, what does this have to do with Acts 2? hehehe
Yes,absolutely. But what of the times that he takes 'knife in hand' and cuts us loose from all that we need as he did Abraham? And look at Job! And here's one you won't hear from todays pulpits,,,,What if Paul had 'ministry aspirations',,,,,,put yourself in his shoes and think how you would feel! Please think,,,,did Paul want to be a successful preacher?
Have you read what he said about his blessings/rewards this world AND THE PEOPLE HE PREACHED TO gave him? Have you put yourself,with your ministry desires,in his shoes????
Before anyone gets 'smart',,,,this is still the world where the devil is prince,,,,,not to his glory,but due to the disgrace of fallen humanity.
_____________________________
" I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures,helping them have a good time,and all I get is abuse,the existence of a hunted man." - Al Capone.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/24/2007 8:21:42 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1275
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Hummm...I am not sure how to react to your post. It sounds like I said something to really set you off? Am I reading that correctly?
I agree that God sends us into unknown circumstances. We can use Abraham's journey to a place he "did not know" as an example. And, yes Job had all kinds of things going on, however, I was referring to repentance, and the first verses of Job talk about what a righteous man he was...so I don't think that that is about repentance.
I guess I am not sure where you are going with this post. So perhaps I will let you respond to my first question. I am not following you well, so if you could clarify, that would be helpful.
Also, I do not want to send this thread off topic -
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/24/2007 9:43:28 AM
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Sagcofc
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/24/2007
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Kernsfamily,
I'm glad that you are proud of your church and minister. I'm not anti-big church. My point is not about the specific "negatives" of a church. The tenor and heart of a church makes anything they do a positive or negative, including things commanded by God! If the intention is wrong, the worship is wrong. I wasn't attacking big churches. I was merely describing the tendency towards entertainment over substance and the shift from worship of God to going for how entertaining a service is (where it's more like a las vegas show, less like worship to God). Obviously you misinterpreted my comment. The reason the Acts 2 church, so to speak, got it right was not the cultural details of the church or the cultural details of their worship, but the intent of their worship. Its worship was in spirit and truth, in love and purity and holiness. They didn't draw crowds with the quality of their speaking or their popularity, but through the offering of salvation, where the Lord was truly present. There are great speakers out there, some who do write books, but there are others who do what they do to make money and sell books, not to proclaim the word that convicts the heart of sin and gives the congregation an insight into the spiritual life. There are big churches that people get swallowed up in, find no true faith or conviction in, and there are big churches that are big because the gospel is alive and present in the church. There are small churches that are mean and honory, hateful and spiteful, and there are small churches that are loving and caring and hungry for the gospel. My point about it is that if the point is to entertain we've lost the purpose of the church from the beginning. If our point is to draw crowds we're missing the point. We're here as ekklesia (church, or the body that gathers together) to be filled with the spirit of God, to worship the holiness of God, and proclaim the gospel of Jesus. That's what the Acts 2 church was about, and that's what the Lord's church today is about. If we miss that distinction, or move away from that purpose, we are in need of restoration.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/24/2007 11:02:59 AM
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1FEATHER
Posts: 196
Joined: 10/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
Hummm...I am not sure how to react to your post. It sounds like I said something to really set you off? Am I reading that correctly?
I agree that God sends us into unknown circumstances. We can use Abraham's journey to a place he "did not know" as an example. And, yes Job had all kinds of things going on, however, I was referring to repentance, and the first verses of Job talk about what a righteous man he was...so I don't think that that is about repentance.
I guess I am not sure where you are going with this post. So perhaps I will let you respond to my first question. I am not following you well, so if you could clarify, that would be helpful.
Also, I do not want to send this thread off topic -
No,no, I am not upset at anything you have said. In fact I think you are making good conversation. I will try to clarify my remarks.
Sometimes when people discuss such topics as 'where did the Acts 2 Church go?' I wonder which Bible they are reading (I am not referring to any remark that has been made in this thread). This is not a matter of theology but one of simply looking at Biblical account and not trying to put a 'spin' on our explanation of God or his personality.
Without going into a long drawnout explanation perhaps I can get my point across in saying that,,,,the same God of love and mercy that always does according to his love (ultimately) is the same God that allows tragedy,heartbreak, imprisonment,ship wreck,whippings,stoning,etc.,etc.
Now remember something, we are looking at Paul's life about 2000 years 'after the fact'. Paul was looking from Paul's perspective while every lash of the whip and every stone was hitting it's mark.
Paul was just preaching and writting letters to churchs. He,in his wildest immagination wouldn't have believed that he would someday be a great Bible hero,quite the opposite,I am persuaded,were his thoughts.
My remarks are not intended to take away from the love and mercy of God but rather to mention what he allows. And thats not popular talk nowadays. Matter of fact some refuse to believe that of God.
Yes he knew he had a reward coming but did that exempt or remove him from suffering and temptation of doubt?
_____________________________
" I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures,helping them have a good time,and all I get is abuse,the existence of a hunted man." - Al Capone.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/24/2007 11:40:01 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1275
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Ok, thanks for clarifying the post. I get you. I often think that it is IN God's kindness, that he allows us rough waters. Ultimately the allowance of bad things (by him) to happen can bring us in to a deeper relationship with him if we allow the work to be done in our lives. But again, that skirts on the issue of only going to God during the rough waters, not when things are smooth sailing. I think that part of a picture of maturity is when we come to him, regardless of what our life is like. I so think that is part of what Paul was saying as well.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/24/2007 3:05:11 PM
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phoenixme
Posts: 32
Joined: 6/11/2007
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Corinth in the first century was a major metropolitan center of trade, tourism, and religious pilgrimage. Acts 18 narrates Luke's account of how Paul came to Corinth as a missionary, met fellow tentmakers Aquila and Prisca, and stayed with them. He taught in the synagogue, but faced considerable resistance there. After leaving the synagogue, he proceeded to teach the Gentiles. Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half. When he continued his journey, he left behind an established commuity of Jewish and Gentile believers. The Corinthian letters arise from Paul's relationship with this young church after his first visit and between following stays with them.
Kinship was the central community where people formed identity and belonging in the ancient world. It was also an organizing symbol for earlyChristian communities. The universal God as "father" of the new family created by Christ opens the boundaries for membership beyond those of traditional kinship to include a variety of people. This is particularly radical for Jewish conceptions of family and community . Paul's kin(g)dom vision conceptualizes the possibility of Jews and Gentiles living together in a new family. Loyalty to and the sense of identity within family are transferred from "natural kin" to the church. The literature of early Christian communities is saturated with "kin" terms. On a practical level, households were the space and underlying unit of being for many early urban churches. There are a number of households who come to belief in Jesus and are baptized as single entities (Acts 16:14-15, 32-34; 18:8; 1 Corinthians 1:16).
Evidence for this early communal living can be found from the very early passages of the book of Acts and the Messianic communal groups in Israel today also lends credence to this fact.
Communal living does not discount the need to come together. Just as much as in my family, everyone seeks the Lord in their own time, but we also make it a point to come together.
1 Corinthians is a perfect example of this Koinonia. The NT application of the word koinonia is to describe the fellowship and communion that existed at the celebration of the Lord's Supper.
Let's consider Acts 2:42 - 27, where we read a striking description of the common life shared by the early Christian believers in Jerusalem. "They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer...All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need…They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people.” The term, “the fellowship,” was not a title or name for the Christian church in Jerusalem; rather, it was a description of its central character as one of associating and sharing in a common life.
Although communal living can be described in quite a few ways, the NT example of 'Communal' means they had their own houses (they went from house to house). It is a common misconception that they sold everything and had shared everything. They did not sell 'all' their possessions. They sold "their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need". Especially the fatherless and the widows, who were taken care of my the entire community.
This was why a dispute arose among the Hebrew speaking and Greek speaking Jewish widows in Acts 6 and not among the entire Hebrew and Greek speaking community.
This was why Paul says, "Honor widows who are really widows. But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show piety at home and to repay their parents; for this is good and acceptable before God. Now she who is really a widow, and left alone, trusts in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. And these things command, that they may be blameless. But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work. But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some have already turned aside after Satan. If any believing man or woman has widows, let them relieve them, and do not let the church be burdened, that it may relieve those who are really widows."
How could they wander from 'house to house' to gossip, be busybodies and say what they ought not to, if the early church did not live in a community?
This was why James also says that we should take care of the widows and the fatherless. In the ancient world, it was mostly only the men who could work.
As we can clearly see the community of the early Church was quite different in concept to the 'community' as we know it today, which may produce extremes like David Koresh and Branch Davidian sect.
In the NT style of community, although the church lived in a community, men were still leaders of their own homes and provided for their own homes. So, "If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home", means just that. Some people were not eating at home, thinking that they were going eat anyway when they got together. So, when it was time to eat, they pile on, not waiting for everyone else. And in so doing place himself above everyone else. That was why Paul says, "when you come together to eat, wait for one another". This passage in fact, lends credence to the 'community' the early church was.
Community does not mean equal distribution of wealth. Communism comes the closest to that. There were even slaves in the community. But even these were treated like brothers. Being a 'community' is more a matter of the heart than of the externals.
_____________________________
Dancing to a different tune...
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/25/2007 11:17:35 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3707
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
Man has created something like this:
God & Clergy & Sons.
Paul actually had an awful lot to say about overseers/bishops/elders/deacons in the Church and the members giving them honor and paying head to them. One must have a very narrow vision of scripture to conclude that "clergy" in not an ordained function within the Church.
And, no, I'm not clergy nor a cleric's son.
_____________________________
If you dissect every delicate and rare bird you come across then you just end up with a mound of decaying carcasses instead of the wonder and beauty God intended. -JimboFletch
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/26/2007 11:56:29 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1178
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
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quote:
Paul actually had an awful lot to say about overseers/bishops/elders/deacons in the Church and the members giving them honor and paying head to them. One must have a very narrow vision of scripture to conclude that "clergy" in not an ordained function within the Church.
Wrong my friend. This is not clergy. These are people with gifts. People who are servants who from demonstrated servanthood and purity are honored--not demonstrated leadership. Honor does not mean make a specialized group of individuals with pay. Nopes. Although Christians are suppose to support each other, especially those who travel about from place to place like Paul did.
Please be careful how you read scripture. Look at ONLY what is there. Not only must you read things in context, you must read it with the understanding of the entire Bible, Revalations, and God's intent for mankind as outlined in the Bible. Without this you make the same mistake so many of our forefathers have made regarding setting up the church in this country.
Church as it remains with clergy, tithing, and its growing lukewarmness is absolutely UNBIBLICAL. Having a clergy is wrong, because Jesus Christ in His flesh did away with the separation. He became the High Priest, and we became a royal priesthood (ALL OF US CHRISTIANS). This is Theology 101 for the average preacher. But although it is understood and preached in theory it is not practised. Clergy creates a middle ground that DOES NOT EXIST. This is why we do not follow Judaism.
And you know, there are a LOT of well meaning "preachers" and "pastors" out there, who are real Christians, and they're doing the best they can. They don't understand why its not working, they don't understand why they have such bickering and fighting among their "leadership" they don't understand why they don't see any spiritual growth in their people. They don't understand why men are leaving the church. They don't understand why 30 and 20 somethings are leaving too. Many are frustrated, others just keep praying, hoping and believing. They struggle because the model they are using is completely unbiblical. But many of them do not know any better.
We need a revival of real fellowship, real sharing, real ministering in Christ Jesus. We've got to get back to basics. We've got to throw out all of the handbooks, workbooks, and church manuals and open the Bible up, and follow that design. God's design never fails and it never goes out of date. For those who think the Acts 2 model cannot work in "modern times" I urge you to have a conversation with the people who think that ideas like banning abortion is outdated and backwards; have a chat with the people who think that sexuality is a free for all; and the have an intimate one-on-one with the folks that believe Christianity is a cop out for those who can't cope with life or the Atheist who doesn't believe in God.
God's word does not change, nor will it return to Him void. If we are obedient, we will get results--even if that means abandoning our ideas of the church for Gods.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/28/2007 8:08:39 AM
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1FEATHER
Posts: 196
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
quote:
Paul actually had an awful lot to say about overseers/bishops/elders/deacons in the Church and the members giving them honor and paying head to them. One must have a very narrow vision of scripture to conclude that "clergy" in not an ordained function within the Church.
Wrong my friend. This is not clergy. These are people with gifts. People who are servants who from demonstrated servanthood and purity are honored--not demonstrated leadership. Honor does not mean make a specialized group of individuals with pay. Nopes. Although Christians are suppose to support each other, especially those who travel about from place to place like Paul did.
Please be careful how you read scripture. Look at ONLY what is there. Not only must you read things in context, you must read it with the understanding of the entire Bible, Revalations, and God's intent for mankind as outlined in the Bible. Without this you make the same mistake so many of our forefathers have made regarding setting up the church in this country.
Church as it remains with clergy, tithing, and its growing lukewarmness is absolutely UNBIBLICAL. Having a clergy is wrong, because Jesus Christ in His flesh did away with the separation. He became the High Priest, and we became a royal priesthood (ALL OF US CHRISTIANS). This is Theology 101 for the average preacher. But although it is understood and preached in theory it is not practised. Clergy creates a middle ground that DOES NOT EXIST. This is why we do not follow Judaism.
And you know, there are a LOT of well meaning "preachers" and "pastors" out there, who are real Christians, and they're doing the best they can. They don't understand why its not working, they don't understand why they have such bickering and fighting among their "leadership" they don't understand why they don't see any spiritual growth in their people. They don't understand why men are leaving the church. They don't understand why 30 and 20 somethings are leaving too. Many are frustrated, others just keep praying, hoping and believing. They struggle because the model they are using is completely unbiblical. But many of them do not know any better.
We need a revival of real fellowship, real sharing, real ministering in Christ Jesus. We've got to get back to basics. We've got to throw out all of the handbooks, workbooks, and church manuals and open the Bible up, and follow that design. God's design never fails and it never goes out of date. For those who think the Acts 2 model cannot work in "modern times" I urge you to have a conversation with the people who think that ideas like banning abortion is outdated and backwards; have a chat with the people who think that sexuality is a free for all; and the have an intimate one-on-one with the folks that believe Christianity is a cop out for those who can't cope with life or the Atheist who doesn't believe in God.
God's word does not change, nor will it return to Him void. If we are obedient, we will get results--even if that means abandoning our ideas of the church for Gods.
Please clarify,,,,are you advocating no orginizational/business structure? I'm not sure I understand you?
_____________________________
" I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures,helping them have a good time,and all I get is abuse,the existence of a hunted man." - Al Capone.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/28/2007 8:22:31 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1275
Status: offline
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I don't think that Acts 2 was prescriptive, but rather descriptive. I don't think it is a "model" for the perfect way to be the church. It appeared to be a highly effective way of doing during the time it was written. And, I agree with Dakata in as much as it is possible today. And it remains a great way to be the church.
As far as leadership, I would not choose a hierarchial organizational structure. IMO the church is not to be a business or run as such. When Jesus came, he tossed out the hierarchial system that was so imbedded in Judiasm and opted for the model of the family. All being brothers and sisters. Sure there is leadership, and those verses that deal with that have been posted. It was a local, and a plural leadership. And, I imagine that it was quite organic as well. People saw which folks were gifted with which gifts and allowed people to work out of their giftings, not a position. It is really great when you watch a group of people submitting to one another's giftings in the Spirit. Really amazing.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 10/30/2007 11:22:33 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1178
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
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1FEATHER,
Well, yes. We're not a business or an organization. We're a family. We're a body. Ever wondered why a back ache stops when you take pain medication that goes into your mouth? Well, because the whole body is connected. A family isn't a business, nor should it be run like one.
I encourage you to watch "The Sound of Music" it's a great movie. But essentially, it tells the story of a man who runs his house kind of like a military ship--or a business. Everything is haywire on the inside but ordely-looking on the outside, and he's the only one that doesn't know it. He walk around thinking the kids are well behaved and ignoring everything to the contrary. He blames the rapidly departing string of nannies he's had to their incompetence and not his unruly children. He doesn't realize he isn't connecting with his kids, and that his kids bicker and fight amongst themselves. You see, that's the way modern day pastors are. They're like that father in the Sound of Music. They desparately want to believe everything is going well, when it isn't. They satiate the people with trinkets (sermons, entertainment and programs) to make up for what's really missing. Kind of like how some parents think they can buy their children's affection without putting in real time and building real relationships. Funny, it doesn't work with the kids--or the "flock."
The trouble here is that we're lookin' at this thing all wrong. Church is a family. It's a family. Not a business or an organization. It's a place where you can lay your head on someone's shoulder and kiss them on the cheek. Church is a family. When you follow that model, you can't go wrong.
We've got to use what Jesus Christ gave us before He left. It's right here before us in the Bible, we've just got to dig in for it.
You see, the kind of church that's in Acts is far more difficult and personally involving than the church of today. See, in a business, at the end of the day, you can punch your card and check out for the day. In a family, its always on: You get a call in the middle of the night about Jr. The baby's crying. Your wife wants to be held. Your husband needs a confidant. It's right there with you, Always. And that's what Jesus wanted. That's why He said Love your brother. That's why Paul said greet with a holy kiss. That's why He said bear each other's burdens. Mourn with those who mourn. This is a family--not a business.
This is family.
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RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? - 11/4/2007 1:45:38 PM
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groovymovieman
Posts: 182
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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From speaking to various authors and historians for the documentary that I helped produce, it seems that the trouble really began with Ignatius who moved leadership from being a function among the people to being an official position over the church. The priesthood of all believers suffered a major blow as leaders became the official spokesmen for the entire community. Then it just got more corrupt from there so that by the time Constantine came on the scene it was very easy for him to institutionalize the church and throw in all kinds of pagan ideals. The Reformation challenged some of the crazy traditions that were added, but the most corrupt root that began with Ignatius and was reinforced by Constantine has for the most part remained unchallenged. In order for the church to return to good health like we see in Acts, the church must go after the high places, if you will. It must strike down the whole idea of having "officials" over the church and return to the simplicity of Christ in which He and He alone is the mediator between God and man and return the priesthood back to all believers. Now mind you, that doesn't mean merely bringing in the theory of it, like the Reformation did. But it means actually walking in it in reality.
If the problem with a building has to do with the way the second floor was built, it doesn't do any good to keep building or to try to fix it on the ninth floor. You've got to scrap the floors that were built on an unstable structure and return to the place where it went screwy and set it right. But sadly, we tend to be too impressed and attached to the work of our own hands so we don't have the guts to scrap what we have built in order tear it back down to what He built and then go from there.
_____________________________
To a pharisee, "Truth is more important than love."
To the spiritually healthy, "Love is the most important part of truth."
www.familyroommedia.com
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