RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (Full Version)

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Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/24/2008 5:42:11 PM)

Please expound on the adaptions on the church of "today" that have edified the body even more?
quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

How is what we have today an improvement? Please expound.

The key word is not "improvement," it's the word "today." We not live in 60 AD.

If we want to revisit 60 AD, even without the threat of being turned into a human torch, would you consider it an improvement that women be silent around men regarding biblical teaching? - Forget that women have equal educational opportunities, they are still women in 60 AD.



rcjames -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/24/2008 5:42:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam

quote:

When Jesus became the head of the Church, he sent the Holy Spirit to establish it (Acts 2), and the Spirit had Luke (Acts), Paul, Peter, John (Epistles), and Judas write how to form, operate, support, and continue the Church.


Then why does this "form" that we see today that you say Jesus established contradict His own words in Matthew 23:6-11 and Matthew 20:25-26?


It doesn't contradict what Jesus said; Christ says that the Shepherd (Pastor) is a servant in the same way a shepherd serves the flock he tends. By keeping them out of trouble and leading them to food and water. Jesus Himself was a servant (and of course a leader).

The Church as set up in the NT (and that is plainly laid out in Acts and the Epistles) is what we are to emulate,

You seem to have a skewed view of what a servant in the Spiritual sense is; Paul put it real well in;

(Heb 13:7) Remember those leading you, who have spoken to you the Word of God, whose faith follow, considering the end of their conduct:

(Heb 13:8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever.

And a little later the Holy Spirit had Paul pen the kicker verse on the responsibilities of leaders and the outcome if they do not lead correctly.

(Heb 13:16) But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

(Heb 13:17) Yield to those leading you, and be submissive, for they watch for your souls, as those who must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you.

That passage also speaks to those being led and the necessity of it.

There were no "Lone rangers" in the first century Church and when one was encountered they were brought into the fold, retaught, and then sent out to minister under the authority and with accountability to those sending them out. This was even the case with the Apostle Paul.

Thsnks
RC



rcjames -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/24/2008 5:53:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam

Clergy/laity divide.
Paid Spiritual gifts in the body of Christ
False doctrines (tithing/offering)
Lectures
CEO/Business Structure
No intimacy
No Family
No Relationship
Superficial
Fluffy speeches for itching ears
Abhorent fruit
Doctrines
Divorce
Lukewarmness
Routine
A form of godliness but denying the power thereof
doctrine of the nicolatians,
compromise


If this is really your experience with a Church, then I am sorry for you as I have never seen such an animal. And I do pray for you to shake free of the cynacism and bitterness that obvoiusly overwhelms you.

This or anyother complaint you have voiced is not practiced in my Church nor any of the others I have birthed with the help of the Holy Spirit. Or any Church I have ministered in.

Thanks
RC



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/24/2008 5:54:04 PM)

Jimbo,

quote:

A) I don't allow hypocrites to spoil my joy

It's not about spoiling your joy, its about having a church that reflects a body, a family, that was described to us in the Bible.

quote:

B) You can find just as bad - or worse - doctrine in small groups. Say, Waco, TX. I have encountered far more crazies in small groups than large, where there is more accountability.

Funny when everyone's doing it, it doesn't seem so crazy . . .? Kind of like abortion and fornication today, eh? The key is that such bad doctrine and poor application as it applies to the church/body of christ should be rooted out, identified for the sake of believers.

quote:

C) Just because you were only able to find bad churches doesn't mean that's all there is. I've been in bad ones - and left to find one where Jesus is Lord and not just an icon.
This is about what I could or could not find. But what is the state of our churches today. I think the fruit coming out of the church speaks for itself. Those who are so bold as to call themselves the "pastors" of God should be pouring over the NT asking God for guidance on how to get back to that simplicity--and that intimacy.



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/24/2008 6:03:50 PM)

RC,

quote:

And I do pray for you to shake free of the cynacism and bitterness that obvoiusly overwhelms you.


I'm sorry you have misinterpreted my concern as cynacism and bitterness.

quote:

This or anyother complaint you have voiced is not practiced in my Church nor any of the others I have birthed with the help of the Holy Spirit. Or any Church I have ministered in.


The fact that you cannot see anything wrong going on in churches today is a testament in itself. If you are unable and you have never seen "such an animal" then I really have nothing more to say and I can absolutely understand your perplexity! As far as you are concerned the IC is AOK. Well, uh, RC, okay.



rcjames -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/24/2008 6:11:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam


quote:

You can find just as bad - or worse - doctrine in small groups. Say, Waco, TX. I have encountered far more crazies in small groups than large, where there is more accountability.

Funny when everyone's doing it, it doesn't seem so crazy . . .?


Well Scripture does promise a great falling away (apostasy) and the unScriptural, non-accountable small groups just might be the beginning of that falling away.

Thanks
RC



rcjames -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/24/2008 6:15:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
The fact that you cannot see anything wrong going on in churches today is a testament in itself. If you are unable and you have never seen "such an animal" then I really have nothing more to say and I can absolutely understand your perplexity! As far as you are concerned the IC is AOK. Well, uh, RC, okay.


I said that I have never seen what you are espousing in any Church I have founded, nor any Church I have ever ministered in (that numbers in the hundreds).

So if someone disagree with your diatribe then you don't want to have a discussion.

How about naming some of those Churches that meet the criteria you listed, then I will be glad to check them out. I might even agree with you on one or two.

Thanks
RC



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/24/2008 6:25:02 PM)

quote:

So if someone disagree with your diatribe then you don't want to have a discussion.

How can I tell you about something you've never seen? In fact, you even mentioned a couple of things that are currently wrong with the church, that you think are OK --clergy/laity divide and tithes. If you see no problem with that, the speeches on sunday, etc. then you think its OKAY. You think everything is fine.



rcjames -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/24/2008 6:41:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
How can I tell you about something you've never seen? In fact, you even mentioned a couple of things that are currently wrong with the church, that you think are OK --clergy/laity divide and tithes. If you see no problem with that, the speeches on sunday, etc. then you think its OKAY. You think everything is fine.


Please expound on the clergy/laity divide as you see it. also on tithes.

So you think discussing the Scripture and the oracles of God on Sunday is a bad thing.

Thanks
RC



F5_warning -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/25/2008 2:29:35 AM)

Lets see Acts chapter 2 starts with the mighty outpouring of the Holy Ghost on the 120 in the upper room with the evidence of speaking in tongues. It seems that there are many denominations and Christians out there that don't even believe the gifts are for today(I'm pentecostal so it is clear where I stand on this.) So that right there is a problem with many mainline churches being an Acts 2 church.

So that means the power of God behind the church has been wiped out. If you don't believe in the gifts you certainly won't be able to use them. Those who do in some of these churches become outcasts in a way. Praise God though some of the individual churches are breaking from the traditions of their denomination on this.

From there we have to look at the fact that perhaps some of the people going to our churches are actually going to do their religious duty and then live like the world the rest of the week. The infection that is in our country has found its way into the church because to many true Christians have set back and let it. Instead of praying and fasting, seeking the face of God we are caught up in ourselves. We have got to the point that we let the pastor study for us, do all the praying, work in the gifts that we should use and anything else that is remotely church related. When it is our work to read the Bible, pray, witness, and have a relationship with the Lord. The church lost its power when we lost our desire for God and then minister to others.
I believe in the frame work of the church, Pastor and board. But I think a pastor would rather have sheep that are our there reading the Bible for themselves, praying, fasting, giving, witnessing, and seeking the will of God for their lives on their own. Not expecting the pastor to do it for them.

Also we seem to have lost a passion to win souls. We want numbers but we don't actually care if the people coming have actually been converted. I think many churches feel that they have to be as large as the church that a brother mentioned earlier on this thread. So they push entertainment to try to get them. The whatever it takes to get people to come has swept over the church in America. Not lets have the power of God change their lives by us being an example of what God can do. If this Brother attends the church I think he does (Bishop Jakes) then his pastor is an example of how God can take a "no body from the back woods" and make them a somebody. If I'm wrong about the church you attend then sorry, but the point still stands. We need to get out of the numbers game and see results. If your church is on fire for God and doing His will you will see more people saved and that is what matters not how many thousands showed up last Sunday. Ok. last Sunday was a bad example even the non believers seem to show up on last Sunday.

Oh there is even more but I'll let you all go with these.



groovymovieman -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/25/2008 10:48:59 AM)

quote:

The purpose of these callings are for the purpose of believers coming to maturity, able to minister and edification, so that we can have oneness of faith, and knowledge of Christ. So that we are NO LONGER children carried about by doctrines at men's will.

We are a body, not an organization or company. The model of church we now employ--so far as I've seen it in the USA, is like a business. We are all to be servants of each other. The gifts do not put people into an elite religious role. It is one where men and women and families get together, share testimonies, read Bibles pray and break bread. You can do this in a church house, farm house or an outhouse. It's not a one way speech from a "pastor." It's about communing with people, interacting, speaking. Not a handshake and God bless you.

Personally, I cannot see how a pastor can read these forums, walk into any church building, attend a couple of programs and not see what is going wrong. How can you not see the disconnect? How can you not see the dried and disasterous fruit coming from the IC (institutionalized church) in the shrinking number of men, the growing divorce rate in the church, the teen/adult promiscuity, homosexuality, hurt, and mundanity? It's like a joke, and the world is laughing at us, while church "leaders" keep singing the same ole tune. It is the Spirit of the Acts 2 church, their adherence to love, sharing, and family. The personal nature of their interactions. The edification, the message.


Wow! Well said.

quote:

Well Scripture does promise a great falling away (apostasy) and the unScriptural, non-accountable small groups just might be the beginning of that falling away.


The great falling away began a long time ago when Christians began substituting Christ as the Head with men wearing titles.



groovymovieman -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/25/2008 11:11:03 AM)

The structure of the church that we see today didn't even begin until about 12 years after the last of the original apostles died. It was introduced to us by Ignatius as his way of trying to stop all the heresies that were emerging. He created the clergy/laity distinction we have in place today, not the early apostles. Read this portion of the letter Ignatius wrote to the church at Smyrna:

"Avoid divisions, as the beginning of evil. Follow, all of you, the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father; and follow the presbytery as the Apostles. Moreover reverence the deacons as the commandment of God. Let no man do aught pertaining to the Church apart from the bishop. Let that eucharist be considered valid which is under the bishop or him to whom he commits it. Wheresoever the bishop appears, there let the people be, even as wheresoever Christ"
Ignatius

Will somebody give me some scripture on this stuff? But there you have it, the birthing of the modern dependence upon leadership. This error came in so early that many Christians believe this is how God meant the church to be. But you read in John’s and Paul’s letters warnings against those who are seeking preeminence over the church and the savage wolves that are among the saints who will rise up not sparing the flock. These wolves weren’t centuries away. They were already there, waiting for the opportunity to usurp the Headship of Christ and feed on the sheep. So by the time Constantine came onto the stage you pretty much already had all the elements necessary for the Catholic church to come into play. All Constantine had to do was inject some Roman paganism in, and off it went. We had a Reformation that challenged some very key issues and won back some very major truths. BUT, it didn't go far enough. It never effectively challenged the Clergy/Laity distinction and allowed the saints to walk in their priesthood as they did in Acts. And it left many of the man-made add-ons in place. It just renamed them with protestant titles.

So in a nut shell, there's where the church in Acts went. It disappeared as Christ was replaced as the Head of the church by men who loved to be first and over the saints and man-made add-ons were introduced over the centuries. I produced a documentary DVD on this very topic.



JimboFletch -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/25/2008 11:21:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam

Jimbo,

quote:

A) I don't allow hypocrites to spoil my joy

It's not about spoiling your joy, its about having a church that reflects a body, a family, that was described to us in the Bible.

quote:

B) You can find just as bad - or worse - doctrine in small groups. Say, Waco, TX. I have encountered far more crazies in small groups than large, where there is more accountability.

Funny when everyone's doing it, it doesn't seem so crazy . . .? Kind of like abortion and fornication today, eh? The key is that such bad doctrine and poor application as it applies to the church/body of christ should be rooted out, identified for the sake of believers.

quote:

C) Just because you were only able to find bad churches doesn't mean that's all there is. I've been in bad ones - and left to find one where Jesus is Lord and not just an icon.
This is about what I could or could not find. But what is the state of our churches today. I think the fruit coming out of the church speaks for itself. Those who are so bold as to call themselves the "pastors" of God should be pouring over the NT asking God for guidance on how to get back to that simplicity--and that intimacy.

In summary, the Holy Spirit of God Almighty has completely lost control of the body of Christ, everywhere on planet earth except where you are currently involved, or not involved, as the case may be, subject to change without notice when or if you find a better gig.

Yeppers, you have me convinced...
[sm=aside.gif]



JimboFletch -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/25/2008 11:26:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: groovymovieman
So in a nut shell, there's where the church in Acts went. It disappeared as Christ was replaced as the Head of the church by men who loved to be first and over the saints and man-made add-ons were introduced over the centuries. I produced a documentary DVD on this very topic.

Isn't the sullied Bride of Christ lucky you finally came along and rescued us after 2000 or so years of all believers being completely deceived and in deep error about these things....

It's a shame the Holy Spirit had so little power until you were old enough to help Him out, groovemessiahman.
[sm=aside.gif]



rcjames -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/25/2008 11:53:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: groovymovieman
So in a nut shell, there's where the church in Acts went. It disappeared as Christ was replaced as the Head of the church by men who loved to be first and over the saints and man-made add-ons were introduced over the centuries. I produced a documentary DVD on this very topic.


That may well be the case for the Roman Catholic Church, since I am not Catholic I really don't know.

But as for the Churches I deal with we use the model laid out in the New Testament, with leadership and accountability.

Groovymovieman, do you honestly not see the accountability, structure, and leadership is the Churhes in the New Testament?

Thanks
RC



groovymovieman -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/25/2008 12:50:49 PM)

quote:

Groovymovieman, do you honestly not see the accountability, structure, and leadership is the Churhes in the New Testament?


So what about accountability? Well, if you can show me in the New Testament where we are to be held accountable to one another I'll go with you. But I read nothing that says we are to be "held accountable" to each other. It's another man-made add-on and a weak substitute for walking in love with one another. Love goes where accountability only pretends to.

As to leadership in the church, well, first of all leadership in the NT is not a huge priority word. Jesus even said that we shouldn't be called leaders or take authority over others because we are all brothers with One who is our Leader. (Matthew 23:6-11, Matthew 20:25-26) But of course there are going to be people who are more mature in Christ than others, simply because they have either known Him longer or perhaps they have pursued Him more eagerly than others. But the Bible makes no indication that we are to slap a title on them and have them run the show. Rather it speaks of the church in the context of a family. Just as in our natural families we have siblings who are older and more mature than others who can help the younger ones along, it's the same in God's family. You don't need a hierarchy in a family. Family is the only "structure" the church has.

People have taken the things Paul wrote and filtered them through an institutional mindset. So they read verses where Paul instructed Timothy to "appoint elders" as Paul instructing Timothy to appoint lords and managers over the church. When Paul was simply saying to Timothy, "Point out those who are more mature." This was for the sake of the church knowing who were good examples among them. Not for the church having bosses over them and to place men at the helm. Peter confirms the concept of elders being about living as good examples. (1 Peter 5:3) In fact, we don't even read of any elders in the church in Corinth! And if the elders were to be bosses, why did Paul write his letters to the whole church? Wouldn't it make more sense to write to the pastor or presiding elders to fix the problems? I think the reason he didn't is because there were no "presiding elders" or "senior pastors." Church was a family that all worked together. Our modern day notion of leadership, (the version the gentiles held to that Jesus spoke against) didn't exist in the church until after Paul was gone.

The introduction of Gentile style leadership to the church was a death blow to her. It stripped the believers of their priesthood and took their dependence off of Christ and placed it upon men.



groovymovieman -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/25/2008 1:03:12 PM)

quote:

It's a shame the Holy Spirit had so little power until you were old enough to help Him out,


I suppose the reformation was the work of Martin Luther and not the Holy Spirit? My Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit works through men who will yield to Him. People cry out, "What's wrong with the church?!" Then when some folks point out what is wrong, the people cry out, "Stop bashing the church! Why don't you actually DO something to help the church rather than criticize her!" Then when folks step out to do something to help the church out of her mess the people cry out, "Who do you think you are?! Things are fine the way they are!" So the bottom line is, you just can't live to please men but rather do what God shows you to do no matter what bad PR you get.



JimboFletch -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/25/2008 2:07:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: groovymovieman

quote:

It's a shame the Holy Spirit had so little power until you were old enough to help Him out,


I suppose the reformation was the work of Martin Luther and not the Holy Spirit?

So now you are the equal of Martin Luther? Nice...



JimboFletch -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/25/2008 2:11:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: groovymovieman

....So the bottom line is, you just can't live to please men but rather do what God shows you to do no matter what bad PR you get.

I could give you a long list of cults and heretics supported with such reasoning. Bottom line is that being rejected by the whole of the body of Christ is NOT the same as being persecuted by the lost and dying world. When strong believers raise a red flag against someone's newest and latest dogma and a witness is felt in the spirits of most believers, then I have serious reservations about such... revelation and its source.



rcjames -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/26/2008 1:00:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: groovymovieman
So what about accountability? Well, if you can show me in the New Testament where we are to be held accountable to one another I'll go with you.


Well the first example is in First Corinthians. A man was committing adultry (with his stepmom no less).

Was he accountable to the other Christian and someone in authority out side the local body; Yes

Paul told the Chruch to throw the guy out of the Church (showing Paul's authority over the Church, and the accountability of the adulterer to Paul as an outside leader, and the others in the Church)

Paul also told the Chruch to let him be reconciled if he repented (showing authority and accountability) and oh yea Paul was accountable to the council at Jerusalem, who held authority over Paul).

The same passage goes beyond adultery and individual being accountable to one another;

(1Co 5:11) But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

(1Co 5:12) For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

(1Co 5:13) But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So yes Christians are accoutable to other Christians and to those in leadership. Read 1 Corinthians chapter 5.

Are they to be leaders in the Church (you seem to fight this truth also). Here are just a couple of verses that show leaders very plainly.

(Heb 13:7) Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

and

(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

and there are many more.

Leadership, connectivity, and accountbility is a mainstay of our Faith.

Thanks
RC



blue1914 -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/26/2008 1:42:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: groovymovieman

quote:

It's a shame the Holy Spirit had so little power until you were old enough to help Him out,


I suppose the reformation was the work of Martin Luther and not the Holy Spirit?

So now you are the equal of Martin Luther? Nice...


I truly ask this question in all sincerity and without malice or guile, so I hope that we can dialog on it instead of anyone taking offense, but to the last question (that the poster was the equal of Martin Luther), I guess my question would be this-why or why would not ANY believer have the potential to be the equal (or superior) of Martin Luther?

To be honest, that's really the point of the reformation in the first place-the "keys to the kingdom" are no longer cloistered within the hands of a privileged few but are instead available to all who desire to learn of God-wouldn't we agree?

To that end, isn't it possible that God reveals something that appears to "buck the system" from time to time? I know that in Luther's case, it was very true and we got the reformation. We are told in the Word that in the last days there would be an increase in knowledge-an increase implies that we will learn something that we didn't know before.

In my personal opinion, it's not anything new per se, but instead a clear UNDERSTANDING of what has been taught for ages but understood by very few (Isaiah 6:9-13) that we will acquire as knowledge. By it's very definition, it will have to be opposed to common thought if common thought is incorrect, wouldn't it? That was the issue with the Reformation-Luther and others lost much by following this "heretical" teaching we now call Protestantism-and where would we be if they had not?



phosadaud -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/26/2008 10:00:55 PM)

I guess I'm trying to understand:

A) If the early church was so perfect, what the point of so many of the epistles were. Some of those churches were dealing with stuff that I've personally never seen in my church and we aren't perfect by any means.

B) I really feel bad that some of you have apparently never seen the Body of believers operate in godly ways before (not perfect because no man has ever been or currently is perfect). As I'm reading this, I'm thinking of the many ways believers I personally know have gone above and beyond to love their brothers and sisters in Christ. I think of the young mother in my church who just donated a kidney to another young mother in my church. I think of a the 90 year old women who comes in faithfully throughout the week to serve behind the scenes to make sure that things get done that need to get done. I think of the group of believers who comes to church nearly every day to pray for the lost, the hurting, the lonely. I think of the folks who go to their ill neighbors house and bring them a meal, clean their house and get them their groceries but don't advertise their good acts.

C) And I'm shaking my head wondering what Bible some of you read where you would think that leadership is not biblical. As far the 2 verses posted, CONTEXT, people, CONTEXT! Good grief! Did you read the verses around those verses to see what Jesus was addressing and why?



groovymovieman -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/27/2008 11:59:19 AM)

quote:

I could give you a long list of cults and heretics supported with such reasoning.


Supported the same reasoning that there is too much control over God's people? I don't think so. The very definition of a cult is more control not less.

quote:

Bottom line is that being rejected by the whole of the body of Christ is NOT the same as being persecuted by the lost and dying world. When strong believers raise a red flag against someone's newest and latest dogma and a witness is felt in the spirits of most believers, then I have serious reservations about such... revelation and its source.


That statement sounds good if you ignore the facts. 13 million born again believers no longer attend what most traditionally call church. This is not some little band of malcontents. This is a large number of Christians. And among them are many strong Christians. Several even used to be pastors. They are raising "red flags" and seeing that much of the church has accepted and practiced dogma for centuries. There is a witness in the hearts of 13 million born again believers that something is wrong with the way things are and they are voting with their feet.

quote:

A) If the early church was so perfect, what the point of so many of the epistles were. Some of those churches were dealing with stuff that I've personally never seen in my church and we aren't perfect by any means.


I certainly don't think the early church was perfect. BUT, there was a depth, reality, love, and authority in Christ that they walked in that is missing from the church today. And don't you think it's good to head for the high places even if you may not make it all the way? Why not shoot for Mars and at least make it to the moon?

quote:

B) I really feel bad that some of you have apparently never seen the Body of believers operate in godly ways before (not perfect because no man has ever been or currently is perfect). As I'm reading this, I'm thinking of the many ways believers I personally know have gone above and beyond to love their brothers and sisters in Christ. I think of the young mother in my church who just donated a kidney to another young mother in my church. I think of a the 90 year old women who comes in faithfully throughout the week to serve behind the scenes to make sure that things get done that need to get done. I think of the group of believers who comes to church nearly every day to pray for the lost, the hurting, the lonely. I think of the folks who go to their ill neighbors house and bring them a meal, clean their house and get them their groceries but don't advertise their good acts.



I think you're missing the point. The point is that I have seen believers walk in tremendous love for Christ and one another. The problem is that it was in spite of all the religious machinery, not because of it. All the religious machinery and trappings that man has added to the church has placed a burden upon people and only gets in the way. So what I'm saying is why don't we just remove all these man made extras so the body of Christ won't have to constantly try to maneuver around them? Rather cut them off so the saints will be free to walk in love in greater measures because they won't be burdened down by all the distracting and hindering burdens religion heaps upon them.

quote:

C) And I'm shaking my head wondering what Bible some of you read where you would think that leadership is not biblical. As far the 2 verses posted, CONTEXT, people, CONTEXT! Good grief! Did you read the verses around those verses to see what Jesus was addressing and why?


I want to be crystal clear on this: I have never stated nor will you ever hear me say that leadership isn't biblical. IT IS BIBLICAL! But, what I am saying is that our traditional views of it are WAY off course with what Jesus taught about leadership. Just as you said, context, context! People read the bible with a traditional view of leadership, (that actually looks just like the version the Gentiles use that Jesus was clear we are not to be like) so they take everything in the NT and twist it to fit with that view. But what I challenge over and over again is that if people will take an honest look at the words of Jesus (For example in Matthew 23:6-11, Matthew 20:25-26) they can not deny that the form of leadership that functions today is in stark contrast to those words.

People then run to the words of Paul to defend their views of hierarchical church government and clergy/laity distinctions, but my big issue problem with that is why on Earth would Paul contradict the words of Jesus?! I mean, just to be clear here, Jesus is the Head, not Paul. So that leaves us with two choices: either Paul was a heretic. (Which I firmly DISAGREE!) OR, Paul really was in agreement with Jesus but Christians today are taking Paul's words and twisting them to defend and support our modern day views of authority. Contrary to what some are saying on this board, the modern day view of church government (top down authority, though they call themselves servants or benefactors) didn't even come into existence until 12 years after the death of the last of the original Apostles and then was solidified by Constantine 200 years later. And that wrong view of authority has been a burden and a scourge on the backs of the saints for centuries.

Now there are and have been many good people that fill those positions. But those positions are still no more God's ideal than the positions of Scribe, Pharisee and Sadducee were. For the saints to truly soar like Eagles we have to return to being a family. Families don't need hierarchies or official titles. When I was a kid I knew my older sister was more mature than me just by her conduct. She didn't need a title to prove it. When I didn't understand my homework I KNEW she was the one to talk to. And I learned what I needed to know through our conversations, not by her lecturing me about my homework. Look at the life of Jesus. Isn't that how He spent most of His time, in one on one conversations with people? The Pharisees even wondered where He got His authority. If you are truly a leader in the Body of Christ, then you don't need a title. You're life will show reveal your maturity and authority. Titles are needed for those who don't really have authority but want to look like they do.



phosadaud -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/27/2008 3:20:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: groovymovieman
quote:

Bottom line is that being rejected by the whole of the body of Christ is NOT the same as being persecuted by the lost and dying world. When strong believers raise a red flag against someone's newest and latest dogma and a witness is felt in the spirits of most believers, then I have serious reservations about such... revelation and its source.


That statement sounds good if you ignore the facts. 13 million born again believers no longer attend what most traditionally call church. This is not some little band of malcontents. This is a large number of Christians. And among them are many strong Christians. Several even used to be pastors. They are raising "red flags" and seeing that much of the church has accepted and practiced dogma for centuries. There is a witness in the hearts of 13 million born again believers that something is wrong with the way things are and they are voting with their feet.


The facts are that most of those 13 million are folks like my brother who claim the name of Christ but when it comes down to it, don't really give a rip. They just don't have "time" to follow Jesus.

And there is no scriptural basis for leaving the body of believers because you think they are "bad" and you are so much better. Not only does that stink the highest heaven of spiritual pride, but it is contrary to the NT church and how they addressed some of the really awful things happening in the early church.

quote:

quote:

A) If the early church was so perfect, what the point of so many of the epistles were. Some of those churches were dealing with stuff that I've personally never seen in my church and we aren't perfect by any means.


I certainly don't think the early church was perfect. BUT, there was a depth, reality, love, and authority in Christ that they walked in that is missing from the church today. And don't you think it's good to head for the high places even if you may not make it all the way? Why not shoot for Mars and at least make it to the moon?


We should always seek to do better, grow more and be more authentic. I see that in my church. We aren't perfect by any means, but we are seeking Jesus and to get closer to Jesus. And read the epistles again if you think they were soooo much better than the church today. Some of the stuff I read blows my mind as to the selfishness and corruption that happened even then. One stark example is the Corinthian church and their times of communion.

quote:

I think you're missing the point. The point is that I have seen believers walk in tremendous love for Christ and one another. The problem is that it was in spite of all the religious machinery, not because of it. All the religious machinery and trappings that man has added to the church has placed a burden upon people and only gets in the way. So what I'm saying is why don't we just remove all these man made extras so the body of Christ won't have to constantly try to maneuver around them? Rather cut them off so the saints will be free to walk in love in greater measures because they won't be burdened down by all the distracting and hindering burdens religion heaps upon them.


I'm having a really hard time understanding what this "religious machinery" is that the ENTIRE church body today is so messed up with. Are there examples of churches that are religious but not relational? Absolutely, I grew up in one. What I don't see is the fact that a certain church has a building, pays a pastor to shepherd the flock and meets corporately on a Sunday morning means they are hindering people's walks with Christ. In a good church, these things work together to build up not slap down. Please explain why you think the entire church body today is so bad. I for one am the believer I am today because of the body of believers I fellowship with and serve not in spite of. And some of the folks who have most influenced by relationship with Jesus and helped me grow in my faith had a "title" in front of their name.

quote:

I want to be crystal clear on this: I have never stated nor will you ever hear me say that leadership isn't biblical. IT IS BIBLICAL! But, what I am saying is that our traditional views of it are WAY off course with what Jesus taught about leadership.


Are there some churches who have screwed up ideas of leadership? Absolutely, but again, I'm not seeing every church out there are being contrary to what Jesus taught. Please explain what you mean by this.

quote:

Just as you said, context, context! People read the bible with a traditional view of leadership, (that actually looks just like the version the Gentiles use that Jesus was clear we are not to be like) so they take everything in the NT and twist it to fit with that view. But what I challenge over and over again is that if people will take an honest look at the words of Jesus (For example in Matthew 23:6-11, Matthew 20:25-26) they can not deny that the form of leadership that functions today is in stark contrast to those words.


Let's look at those Scriptures. What specifically was Jesus talking about? The Pharisees and such. Why? Not because they had titles or held leadership roles, but because they were not following God - they were following man's rules and man's laws and loading the people down with those laws. They had no love.

You are correct - a title doesn't mean a hill of beans, but Jesus wasn't saying "Thou shalt never have a title", Jesus was saying that we shouldn't follow folks because of a title. The Apostles had titles. They had authority. Jesus gave that to them. But contrary to the authority at the time - Jesus said their authority was not about people following them (the title) but rather about them being a servant to those around them to show them God's love and act as God's servant. Again, read the entire chapter not just a couple verses taken out of context.

quote:

People then run to the words of Paul to defend their views of hierarchical church government and clergy/laity distinctions, but my big issue problem with that is why on Earth would Paul contradict the words of Jesus?! I mean, just to be clear here, Jesus is the Head, not Paul. So that leaves us with two choices: either Paul was a heretic. (Which I firmly DISAGREE!) OR, Paul really was in agreement with Jesus but Christians today are taking Paul's words and twisting them to defend and support our modern day views of authority. Contrary to what some are saying on this board, the modern day view of church government (top down authority, though they call themselves servants or benefactors) didn't even come into existence until 12 years after the death of the last of the original Apostles and then was solidified by Constantine 200 years later. And that wrong view of authority has been a burden and a scourge on the backs of the saints for centuries.


I'm trying to figure out out exactly what hierarchy you seem to think the early church had? Again, read the NT. The apostles had authority over the churches. Each church had leaders that held authority over the brothers there. When there were needs (such as we see with starving widows and such), the apostles had the churches appoint folks to "oversee" that those needs were met. What was radical was why they were appointed (it wasn't because they had the big bucks or the political power, but rather because they were filled with the Spirit and godly men). I'm just not getting what you are saying.

quote:

Now there are and have been many good people that fill those positions. But those positions are still no more God's ideal than the positions of Scribe, Pharisee and Sadducee were. For the saints to truly soar like Eagles we have to return to being a family. Families don't need hierarchies or official titles. When I was a kid I knew my older sister was more mature than me just by her conduct. She didn't need a title to prove it. When I didn't understand my homework I KNEW she was the one to talk to. And I learned what I needed to know through our conversations, not by her lecturing me about my homework. Look at the life of Jesus. Isn't that how He spent most of His time, in one on one conversations with people? The Pharisees even wondered where He got His authority. If you are truly a leader in the Body of Christ, then you don't need a title. You're life will show reveal your maturity and authority. Titles are needed for those who don't really have authority but want to look like they do.


Again, you are missing something. Families do have heirarchies - in fact they are commanded to have heirarchies. It's not a democracy. Scripture (NT and OT) commands that children obey their parents and honor them. Wives are to submit as unto the Lord to their husbands.

And titles are not necessary but neither are they irrelevant.



JimboFletch -> RE: Where did the Acts 2 Church go? (3/28/2008 4:24:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

I guess I'm trying to understand:

A) If the early church was so perfect, what the point of so many of the epistles were. Some of those churches were dealing with stuff that I've personally never seen in my church and we aren't perfect by any means.

B) I really feel bad that some of you have apparently never seen the Body of believers operate in godly ways before (not perfect because no man has ever been or currently is perfect). As I'm reading this, I'm thinking of the many ways believers I personally know have gone above and beyond to love their brothers and sisters in Christ. I think of the young mother in my church who just donated a kidney to another young mother in my church. I think of a the 90 year old women who comes in faithfully throughout the week to serve behind the scenes to make sure that things get done that need to get done. I think of the group of believers who comes to church nearly every day to pray for the lost, the hurting, the lonely. I think of the folks who go to their ill neighbors house and bring them a meal, clean their house and get them their groceries but don't advertise their good acts.

C) And I'm shaking my head wondering what Bible some of you read where you would think that leadership is not biblical. As far the 2 verses posted, CONTEXT, people, CONTEXT! Good grief! Did you read the verses around those verses to see what Jesus was addressing and why?

WELL PUT, EXCELLENT POST!
[sm=thumbsup.gif]



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