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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 9:11:10 PM
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nicole6598
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
I have been looking into the WOF and prosperity preachers and reading books about it and I totally disagree with it and I can't believe I got "sucked" in. Although I didn't know any different. They can be very persuasive.
They sure can be, I personally know. A lot of has to do with the wicked nature of our flesh, our carnality, liking to hear that we can have financial riches, good and comfy lives, and no problems because we're Christians. As Scripture so aptly notes - it tickles our ears.
Yes, its like that scripture says about people itching to hear what they want to hear and will follow after that. Its what I see happening.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
See my hubby will say "but it says God wants to prosper us" etc etc so its hard when some verses will contradict another. How do you get around that?
Context. Knowing how to properly read Scripture in light of Scripture. A lot of those passages I know your husband brings up were speaking directly to and for Israel. Not always for New Testament believers like you and I.
So how do you know which ones are meant for Israel and which are not?
Earthless you will be appalled at what is on the AOG Australia website!
Ironically enough, I was on that website just a few weeks ago. My family was sincerely invited to become members of a local AoG church in my city. Many of my wife's family attends there and it would have been perfect for us due to its location, etc..
But after attending a few services we had to respectfully decline. It saddens me that some once doctrinally sound Pentecostal churches are being over-run by Word of Faith teachings.
So you are here in Australia? The AOG America website is alot different and has a paper against positive confession etc. Sadly I think if I was to bring this up to my pastor he would brush it aside (my FIL is also AOG pastor and believes in WOF).
quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
"Life is meant to be lived as an increasing adventure in prosperity. God’s intention is to prosper the righteous so that they can demonstrate the power of His Kingdom on earth. Prosperity is not an option but a mandate and responsibility given to all who believe in the authority of the name of Jesus. We are called to show forth the wonders of His increasing Kingdom, and this clearly requires an increasing measure of affluence so that we can have an increasing measure of influence. "
That underlined bit got me so mad. I showed hubby last night, and he said "yeah but there's nothing wrong with being prosperous, God wants us to prosper". (he isn't very astute with scripture so couldn't show me examples, but I know where he is talking about, the OT stuff).
Simply point him to Jesus Christ, to the apostles, to the disciples, to the followers of Jesus depicted in the pages of the Bible. They didn't hunger after money nor lavish lifestyles. Instead they faced hunger, imprisonment, beatings, be-headings, loss of friends, the gory mane of a tiger, the melting oil of being lit on fire alive, chains, and death.
I, for one, am embarrassed by the Word of Faith teachers and I am ashamed to be represented by them.
These men represent Christianity to millions and millions around the world.
They present a false picture of what it means to be a Christian and I think it is abhorrent. Michael Horton has rightly asked, "Do those who occasionally view televangelistic programming know that evangelical Christianity offers an intelligent interpretation of and hope for human existence?
Stated most simply, the error of the faith movement is that they exalt man and decrease God. They exalt man to God status and reduce God to man's status.
They are aware that what they are teaching is unorthodox and controversial to say the least, yet they have no wish to change their tune.
They refuse to be accountable to anyone. No man is an island unto himself. These men who are spokesmen for the Christian faith to the public and represent the Lord Jesus to millions through their television programs are preaching a different Jesus, a different gospel, and a different spirit than what is revealed to us in Holy Scripture.
The Apostle Paul has some strong words for these men and with them I close. I pray we will take them to heart and that the Spirit that so moved Paul to action against false teachings will move within us to produce in us a holy zeal for truth!
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-9)
Yep, that's what I have been doing, pointing him to Jesus and the disciples and how they lived and what they taught on.
Thanks
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Proud Aussie, Wife, Mother, Woman!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 9:17:58 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
So you are here in Australia? The AOG America website is alot different and has a paper against positive confession etc. Sadly I think if I was to bring this up to my pastor he would brush it aside (my FIL is also AOG pastor and believes in WOF).
No, I am not in Australia. But being involved in apologetics, writing, etc.. has me reading up on a plethora of different things. And due to the Lakeland/Todd Bentley fiasco that has been going on, I was reading up some things on the AoG websites.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
Yep, that's what I have been doing, pointing him to Jesus and the disciples and how they lived and what they taught on.
Thanks
Be advised that many in the Word of Faith camp teach that Jesus was financially rich, lived in a mansion, and that because of that a certain WoF pastor drives a Rolls Royce (his exact words..).
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 9:21:45 PM
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nicole6598
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Yeah, some ppl in my church are excited about the Florida thing. Our pastor pushes "God tv" to the congregation.
LOL Jesus lived in a mansion. yeah right.
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[Deleted] - 7/30/2008 9:48:35 PM
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 10:22:34 PM
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Stephanos
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Is it not funny how most average WOF followers refuse to be called WOF followers. This even though they share the theology of the movement at a rate of nearly 100%. I am not ashamed to tell people which teachers and theologains alive and dead I look up to and respect as my teachers of the faith. Why are WOF'ers afraid to admit who they admire, agree with, and follow? It is just like Bentley and his quick hiding of "Emma" when the truth about that demon came out. If he (bentley) truly believed in that "Angel" why not tell people its name! And if you truly agree with WOF teachings and its teachers, why not say so? I believe the fact that people are unwilling to admit their teachings and teachers, is proof that the spirit may be convicting them, and instead of actually rebuking their bad theology, they merely hide their connections.
As for the "little gods" theolgy. This heretical teaching has no place in God's church, and any "fellowship" that does believe it, is not a church, but merely a gathering of mostly unbelievers who ignore truth for Satan inspired teachings.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 10:29:06 PM
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Child4Jesus
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RealLifeBibleAnswers,
What do you think that is being said in John 10:34?
When the bible said there is only one God it means just that. It doesn't mean there is only one type of God that Yahweh is and then there are other kinds of gods.
As far as WOF saying we are gods. They think that our words have power. You can create things with your words because of your faith. You see God is a faith being and He created the universe by the power of His faith. We as Christians are just like God so we by our faith can create reality. So basically don't say to someone who is about to perform of stage break a leg (which is a figure of speech meaning do well) because they will literally break a leg. If you have cancer all you have to do is talk to the cancer cells and if you have enough faith the cancer will go away.
They also believe that Adam was a god just like God. He could fly like the birds, fly to the moon, etc. God had to get his permission to come to Earth because he, Adam, was the god of the Earth.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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[Deleted] - 7/30/2008 10:30:05 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/30/2008 10:56:58 PM
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 10:58:33 PM
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Stephanos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RealLifeBibleAnswers
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Is it not funny how most average WOF followers refuse to be called WOF followers. This even though they share the theology of the movement at a rate of nearly 100%.
Well, if you're referring to me, I've only brought up one "WOF" issue, that sadly, with accompanying masses of Biblical support, is directly rejected by individuals who are no more than products of indoctrination. All I've received (in this thread) were reviews of various schools of thought, pointless exhaustive commentary, and passages taken out of context.
quote:
As for the "little gods" theolgy. This heretical teaching has no place in God's church, and any "fellowship" that does believe it, is not a church, but merely a gathering of mostly unbelievers who ignore truth for Satan inspired teachings.
Care to support your position with Scripture? I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
Seeing as you cant support your position with scripture with out grossly taking scripture out of context, and while ignoring biblical truth that there is only ONE GOD IN ALL OF CREATION! Why should I take the time to give more evidence, that is not hard to find, that such heresies as you support, are ungodly and satanic?
First, it should be noted, that as Christ Jesus tells in Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then i will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."
Second we see Paul telling us in 2nd Timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths."
As for John 10 and its connection to Psalms 82, have you heard the phrase "sons of adoption?" Paul in Romans 8:15-17 says "For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him."
Now go back to what Psalms 82 says. Remember this is what Jesus is QUOTING when he says in John 8:34 "I said, You are gods'. This is what Psalms 82 6-7 says. "I said, 'You are all gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you will die like men, and fall like any one of the princes."
The hebrew word that is translated "gods" here does not just mean "GOD" but rather can also mean something like "great/might one". In context, we see that "great/mighty ones" is the better translation due to what is said in verse 7. If we really were gods, in that we were divine, then we would not sin and fall and die. But we are and do, so how can we be actual Gods? Answer is we can not be. Now if we were created to be great and mighty, created in the image OF GOD, then we can fall since we are not of the divine. And this is where the "sons of adoption" comes in, in that those who do turn to the Savior, are adopted back into the Lord, and we become like man was created to be, Great and Might, because we have the Spirit of God in us.
To say, or even suggest that we are "gods" in that we are of the same substance as God, that is to make us divine. And that is heresy. We have the Spirit in us, but we are not in any way "divine".
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[Deleted] - 7/30/2008 11:10:21 PM
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 11:22:44 PM
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Stephanos
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Now we get into semantics of the word "theos" aka "god". When this word is used, it does not mean one is actually a god. If this is the case, then Ba'al, Shiva, ect are also actual "gods". Rather instead, when the word is used when not describing THE God (as in the Great I AM), it is not saying that the person is "a" god but merely has attributes OF THE God. As the hebrew word we translate as "god", as I said in my previous post, means "great mighty one". In deed satan is a great and mighty object in creation. But he is not "a" god in the same sense that Jehovah is "a" god. When it comes to using "theos" or "God" to describe the almighty Creator, we use it to say He is "THE GREAT ONE", "THE MIGHTY ONE". None can even come close to compare to Him, for their is NO comparison.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 8:01:53 AM
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earthless
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I thought he was done talking to me?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 8:06:05 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
Yes Brian is the National Exectuive. I belong to AOG church. I think the executives at their national conference meetings push certain teachings, and I have noticed they are pushing WOF and prosperity more and more.
Brian Houston is a confirmed supporter of WoF theology. He is also a supporter of Latter Rain theology and is associated with C Peter Wagner's NAR (New Apostolic Reformation)
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 11:16:04 AM
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Stephanos
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Adam,
If WOF was just about the Prosperity Gospel, you may have a point that they we should be charitable on their different beliefs. However WOF is NOT just about PG. This thread can testify that it is more.
It is the "little gods" theology where many if not most WOF'ers believe that believers are actually gods.
It is the idea that anyone who had enough faith could have replaced Jesus on the cross.
It is the idea that Jesus died spiritually, and suffered in hell (not hell=grave as the true meaning of both the NT and early church believed but hell as in the lake of fire/eternal torment type).
Related to this, you have some rejecting the idea of sacrificial atonement.
From the actual name Word of Faith, there is the idea that YOUR words can cause GOD do to something He would not have done if You did not ask it.
--
Add it all together and you do have a heretical movement. Again, the individual that is in this movement can possibly still adhere to Biblical Orthodox teaching. But the teacher of this movement, who teaches many of, if not most of these unbiblical teachings, are not following the truth, and are teaching another Jesus. This is why it is so important that we never stop pointing these heretics out, to try and warn people against listening to their teachings. Because while at first you can listen to them and still be a follower of the true Jesus, the more you listen and begin to agree with him, the farther you fall away from the true gospel. And no true follower of Christ Jesus would ever reject Him for this false Jesus that is being taught in WOF circles.
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[Deleted] - 7/31/2008 11:49:00 AM
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 1:20:02 PM
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Stephanos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RealLifeBibleAnswers
Ok, I feel obligated to correct you on a number of items in your statement:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
It is the "little gods" theology where many if not most WOF'ers believe that believers are actually gods.
The theology that Christians (born-again Believers) are gods is a Biblical concept. No, we aren't God, the creator as the Scripture plainly tells us that there is no other God like Him (Isaiah 44:6).
Reference: John 1:2, John 10:34
quote:
It is the idea that Jesus died spiritually, and suffered in hell (not hell=grave as the true meaning of both the NT and early church believed but hell as in the lake of fire/eternal torment type).
This is partially correct. Jesus did indeed die spiritually according to Matthew 27:46.
quote:
From the actual name Word of Faith, there is the idea that YOUR words can cause GOD do to something He would not have done if You did not ask it.
The concept that YOUR words can cause God to something to Biblically correct, according to Joshua 10:14.
Thanks.
First, we are already disgussing the heretical "little gods" concept in another thread. In which you are using faulty hermeneutics and ignoring posts that clearly contradict your heretical view point. But to put it in simple words that anyone can understand. MANKIND CAN NOT BE (AND ARE NOT) GODS!
As to your second point, maybe you typed your bible reference for Jesus dying spiritually, but I to see what the given verse has to do with Jesus dying spiritually. I cant even understand how someone can twist that passage to say Jesus died spiritually.
"About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?” - Matthew 27:46.
Third point. God rewarded Joshua because of his faith in HIM. Furthermore, it was apart of God's plan all along. God did not stop and say, hey, thats not part of the plan, but because you asked me I will do it. NO!! FAITH, not words, is what allowed Joshua to win the day.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 2:05:07 PM
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earthless
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Jesus did not die spiritually. There is no need for asserting that Christ's nature changed, or that His ontological union with the Father was severed on the basis of His words from the cross.
As many Christians can attest, even those times when they are not fully experiencing the blessings of fellowship with the Father, the truth of their relationship with Him remains constant; such was the case with Christ.
Now, let it be made clear that this hardly implies that the Lord Jesus' suffering was bodily only. In bearing the penalty of our sins He suffered in body and spirit.
Obviously, such suffering had impact on Him as a total being. But, there is no basis for insisting that such suffering altered His very nature. (Some Christians hold that the experience of alienation that Christ suffered in His spirit could be considered a "spiritual death" but, such a definition of spiritual death is significantly different than that advanced by the "Faith" teachers.)
We now, therefore, have a reply to the first and perhaps most difficult question. In answer to whether the Scriptures teach that Jesus suffered a "spiritual death" on the cross that severed Him from union with God and resulted in His becoming a mere mortal man, the Scriptures indicate "No."
The Word of God clearly demarcates the extent of Christ's humiliation in death and it does not include such a "spiritual death." Scripture declares that Christ "bore our sins on the tree" but also makes it clear that in "bearing sin" His nature did not change.
Even our Lord's cry of desolation gives no ground to the teaching that He was severed from His essential union with God to become a mere man.
A lot more can be and has been said about this other piece of heresy and gross misunderstanding from Word of Faithers.
One true sign of a cult, of false teaching?
It will always demote God and elevate man.
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[Deleted] - 7/31/2008 2:18:13 PM
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 3:05:11 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RealLifeBibleAnswers
It was not just faith that allowed Joshua to win, but FAITH AND WORDS that allowed him to win. Joshua could have believed all day that God would have performed that miracle, but it wasn't until he actually opened his mouth to speak it that the miracle occurred.
Reading Scripture through the lens of Word of Faith teachings is always a sight to see. In Hebrews 11, often referred to as the "Faith Hall of Fame," we read of those who were commended for their faith, yet were destitute, persecuted, imprisoned, and suffered torturous deaths. These men and women set examples for us, and yet their lives were characterized more by perseverance than by prosperity.
Certainly, this message will not sell well in a self-indulgent age. Nonetheless, we had better be glad that our heavenly Father decides what is best for us and not we ourselves, because only He truly understands what we need and what we can handle. One shudders to think of what would happen if God gave us everything we clamored for.
I do not wish to be misunderstood: I believe in divine healing and in God's provision for every detail of our lives. In addition, I do not associate piety with poverty. I thank God for those He has prospered who are dedicated to using their resources for the extension of His Kingdom.
But for the Word of Faith teachers, healing and prosperity became so important that they had to find some way to guarantee them, and they did this by exalting man's faith at the expense of God's sovereignty. Thus, they developed the doctrine that God created the world out of nothing by faith, and that He created men as "little gods" to exercise the same kind of faith. Faith therefore becomes a powerful force that gets results, whether in the hands of a believer or a nonbeliever.
On the basis of this virtual deification of human faith, the purveyors of the word-faith message promise health and wealth to those who exercise faith in their faith rather than faith in their God. As has been well said elsewhere, faith is only as good as the object on which it is placed.
Walter Martin used to say, "All faith is subsumed under the overarching biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God." The Creator is the Lord of the universe, not a cosmic "gofer" at the beck and call of His creation. It is not our faith that sits on the throne, but our sovereign God (1 Chronicles 29:10-12).
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[Deleted] - 7/31/2008 3:16:51 PM
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 3:22:55 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RealLifeBibleAnswers
I also want to state that again, I'm not associated, affiliated, or even follow the teachings of any of the "Word of Faith" people listed throughout this thread.
You just believe in and adhere to said teachings. Same difference.
quote:
ORIGINAL: RealLifeBibleAnswers
My attempt in this thread is to at least voice a concern for a very unholy motive among "WOF" opponents, self-titled "Bereans", and the like, about dismissing concepts/theology that is Biblically supported.
So:
a) testing things in light of Scripture and clinging to what is good is "unholy"
and
b) You do believe Word of Faith teachings are biblical
quote:
ORIGINAL: RealLifeBibleAnswers
As a matter of fact, I'm very grieved in my spirit in what I see going on here.
Would you prefer false teachers and false prophets be allowed an even stronger foothold on some church circles?
quote:
ORIGINAL: RealLifeBibleAnswers
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see a motive to dismiss everything and anything spoken out of the mouth of a "WOF" preacher whether it is Biblical or not. Such a motive is not Godly and not very becoming of Christ.
10% poison is enough to ruin a well. When a different (false) faith, false gospel, false jesus, false god, false salvation is being preached from their platforms and pulpits... the loving thing to do is to proclaim God's Word and sound the alarm.
quote:
ORIGINAL: RealLifeBibleAnswers
Regardless of the track record of ANY preacher, what is true and Biblically-substantiated is just that: truth and Biblical.
That is all.
Good luck with that.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 3:39:57 PM
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Lapidoth
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I did a study on what biblical "Prosper" would really mean
a few years back.
To my surprise, "May you prosper as your soul prospers,"
IS NOT about wealth, etc.
To biblically prosper is to "finish the task set before you."
But with decades of the brain washing false doctrines of WoF,
we continually "read things INTO the Scriptures" instead of
actually studying to see what the Scriptures actually do say.
The river flow is deep and wide, and to follow the truth will
be a swimming against the flow experience. The doctrines of
demons are down stream flowing with everyone enjoying the
ride. We have to swim upstream most of the time.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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