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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/17/2008 8:27:11 PM
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Codegrazer
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quote:
"born again christians have their fine payed in full by jesus the christ. unsaved others will have to pay for the penalty for their sin themselves". incorrect
How is that "incorrect" - Biblically? Chapter and verse please?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/17/2008 8:42:08 PM
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facedown
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mushead
i don't agree with your post 223 (specifically in response) because it failed to meet my request:
quote:
i'd sure expect to see some witness to some source documentation of these "dogmatic" statements; which, btw would not have to be something that had to be interpreted - but truly 'dogmatic', iow: "hell doesn't exist, at all, in the least bit...everyone who is anyone, who has ever lived, regardless of their faith, beliefs, gravity of sins, walk of life, time lived, place lived (etc) is going to spend the rest of eternity in heaven, chillin' with god having a party"
you know...something like that -
yes, i read and enjoyed SMoJ - didn't think it was quite complete; however.
"biblical version of hell" - please share your thoughts?
codegrazer
how is it incorrect? your post makes it sound as though jesus came for "some" - col 1 suggests otherwise, as does romans 5:10, and 2 cor 5:18-21.
lastly, without going into great detail, it is imposible to "pay for penalty" by oneself - would you not agree?
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/17/2008 8:58:30 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
how is it incorrect? your post makes it sound as though jesus came for "some" -
W/O getting into a debate on Calvinism clearly not everyone will receive God's gift of salvation. What you seem to be voicing is the lie of universalism.
John 3:16 - 18 (ESV) 16“For God so loved the world,£ that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Matt 7:13 - 14 (ESV) 13“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy£ that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/17/2008 9:21:36 PM
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Codegrazer
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quote:
...Salvation comes ONLY through the GRACE of God to those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, as God who came in the flesh, died and rose again on the third day...
The above is the gospel as God's Holy Word has declared it. I get the impression from your posts that you disagree with the literal implication of that- do you?
The reason this is important is because any discussion based upon man's wisdom/logic that does not conceed the basic description of salvation (summarized above) is absolutely pointless to a believer in Christ Jesus. I might as well waste my time arguing with an atheist, a Hindu, a Satan worshiper or any other unsaved person.
Christians are to declare the Gospel to all, but not to waste time arguing with those who reject this very foundation of God's Word. Instead we are instructed to shake the dust off our feet, take our peace with us and move on.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/17/2008 9:44:20 PM
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Codegrazer
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quote:
your post makes it sound as though jesus came "only" for "some"
Jesus died for the sins of ALL men, but His sacrifice, and the free gift of salvation that it purchases as payment for our sins is salvation only for those who believe in Him alone as the way, the Truth and the light. Jesus is the one true Lord and saviour and as He has said, He alone is the way to our Father in heaven.
Unfortunately, many refuse to accept this - thus they deny the diety of Jesus and the very foundations of the Gospel. These stubborn, rebellious people are not saved and those who preach/teach otherwise reserve for themselves even greater condemnation.
"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day." John 12:48
So says the Lord.
< Message edited by Codegrazer -- 8/17/2008 9:51:02 PM >
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/18/2008 12:48:25 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
who "receives" and who doesn't had no place in my post - only that scripture is crystal clear that the price has been paid (1) time for all.
codegrazer
don't read things into my post - if you have a question, then ask.
"as god's holy word has declared it"? not that i do or do not disagree; however, that isn't a quote from scripture...is it?
and i don't think a "basic description of salvation" is possible.
are you suggesting your wasting your time in this discussion with me?
maybe what we ought to be doing is living the good news, setting captives free, binding broken hearts, walking humbly, loving mercy, and doing justly - rend our hearts, love god and love neighbor?
post 230
so....jesus died and "paid the price" for all, but some dogs are still going to be kicked around? and you tend to speak of god/jesus as though such words are self-referential, or that somehow that which is created connects with that which is uncreated, or the like. and this; contrary to your language, does not deny the diety of jesus, nor the foundation of the beautiful news, nor does it mean that they are stubborn, rebellious folks.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/18/2008 4:36:24 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
colliefan
who "receives" and who doesn't had no place in my post - only that scripture is crystal clear that the price has been paid (1) time for all.
John 1:12 - 13 (ESV) 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
What you speak of is universalism and is clearly not found in scripure
John 1:11 (ESV) 11He came to his own,£ and his own people did not receive him.
John 3:16 - 18 (ESV) 16“For God so loved the world,£ that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Matt 7:13 - 14 (ESV) 13“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy£ that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Matt 7:22 - 23 (ESV) 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
quote:
maybe what we ought to be doing is living the good news, setting captives free, binding broken hearts, walking humbly, loving mercy, and doing justly - rend our hearts, love god and love neighbor?
Eph 2:8 - 9 (ESV) 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,[u] 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/18/2008 4:45:37 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
and i don't think a "basic description of salvation" is possible
Acts 4:11 - 12 (ESV) 11This Jesus£ is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
So these verses, as well as the rest of the bible, are inadequate? Are two thousand years of church history inadequate? Or, are the current teachings of the apostate EC-USA adequate?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/18/2008 8:45:04 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
"biblical version of hell" - please share your thoughts?
Lake of fire as final destination for all whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Place of torment that is on the other side of an unbreachable divide from Abraham's bosom - think of the rich man in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). And then there is this:
quote:
It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where ”‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ 49 Everyone will be salted with fire. (Mark 9:47b-49)
quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
yes, i read and enjoyed SMoJ - didn't think it was quite complete; however.
So, do you agree with McLaren that in the cross Jesus was defeated and God was weak?
quote:
"This is the scandal of the message of Jesus. The kingdom of God does fail. It is weak. Is is crushed...Looking back on Jesus and his message, Paul spoke of the Cross as the weakness and foolishness of God (1Cor. 1:18-25)...Somehow for him, the defeat of Christ on that Roman cross..." (McLaren; The Secret Message of Jesus; pg. 69-71)
< Message edited by mushhead -- 8/18/2008 8:56:06 PM >
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/18/2008 9:15:26 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
post 230
so....jesus died and "paid the price" for all, but some dogs are still going to be kicked around? and you tend to speak of god/jesus as though such words are self-referential, or that somehow that which is created connects with that which is uncreated, or the like. and this; contrary to your language, does not deny the diety of jesus, nor the foundation of the beautiful news, nor does it mean that they are stubborn, rebellious folks.
facedown,
I know you directed these comments to Codegrazer, but I want to offer my two-cents worth to the embolded portion of your post.
If I understand your definition of "self-referential" correctly, then I agree with you that they are not. However, words do have meaning that can be understood. Without the presence of "understood definitions" intelligent communication would be impossible.
As for your apparent skepticism that the created can connect with the un-created: your skepticism is unwarranted, as the created can connect with the un-created because the un-created, God, has made it possible. God became a man for that very purpose. In becoming a man, Jesus stepped into the world of humanity and used words with specific and understood meanings to communicate God's truths. I think we should trust Jesus's assessment of the state, and fate, of those who continue to rebel, rather than impose on God our own values about such things. It seems this imposing is far more inappropriate than anything Codegrazer has been accused of.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 8/19/2008 12:20:57 AM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/19/2008 9:24:21 AM
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jazzact13
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quote:
"as god's holy word has declared it"? not that i do or do not disagree; however, that isn't a quote from scripture...is it?
Would it have mattered to you, facedown, if he had quoted scripture?
quote:
and i don't think a "basic description of salvation" is possible.
Then is salvation pretty much a "blurry oblong" to you?
quote:
are you suggesting your wasting your time in this discussion with me?
Are you wasting his time?
quote:
maybe what we ought to be doing is living the good news,
Maybe. But then, what do you mean my 'good news'?
quote:
so....jesus died and "paid the price" for all, but some dogs are still going to be kicked around?
What does kicking dogs have to do with anything being discussed here?
quote:
and you tend to speak of god/jesus as though such words are self-referential
Yes, boys and girls, welcome to "Postmodern Hour", where you learn that the words you use don't really mean anything.
Little Bobby, what is a dog? That's right, you can't say, because the word 'dog' is meaningless.
quote:
or that somehow that which is created connects with that which is uncreated,
So, is this you saying you're really an agnostic? That if there is a God, he/she/its so far out there that we can't really know anything about it/she/he?
quote:
and this; contrary to your language, does not deny the diety of jesus, nor the foundation of the beautiful news, nor does it mean that they are stubborn, rebellious folks.
Take a deep breath, calm down a little, and try again, because that statement makes no sense at all.
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/19/2008 12:25:08 PM
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Codegrazer
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quote:
don't read things into my post - if you have a question, then ask.
I did ask. You just chose to dodge answering it. So, as per your request, I will ask (again), clearly, succinctly, sincerely and without any upfront observation;
Do you personally accept that, "...Salvation comes ONLY through the GRACE of God to those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, as God who came in the flesh, died and rose again on the third day..." ?
That's a "yes" or "No" question.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/19/2008 1:02:02 PM
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Codegrazer
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Facedown,
quote:
"as god's holy word has declared it"? not that i do or do not disagree; however, that isn't a quote from scripture...is it?
Of course not! And so what? It is a statement of basic truth as regards to what the Bible says. It is like saying, "the NY Times reported that a tornado touched down in Texas." It's not a quote from the Times, it's an accurate reference to the original statement and it's source.
quote:
and i don't think a "basic description of salvation" is possible.
Well, of what importance is what you think compared to what God's Holy Word says? Such fleshly thinking is the source of deception in all Christian heresies - they derive from what men think (or want to think) based upon their human ideas about who God ought to be and how God, as they feel, ought to operate. Well, sorry but God's Holy Word trumps man's "wisdom" every time, and The Bible could not be more specific or more clear on the basis for men's salvation.
quote:
are you suggesting your wasting your time in this discussion with me?
That depends on what your answer is to my previous question, "Do you personally accept that, "...Salvation comes ONLY through the GRACE of God to those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, as God who came in the flesh, died and rose again on the third day?"
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/19/2008 1:19:06 PM
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Codegrazer
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Facedown,
quote:
so....jesus died and "paid the price" for all, but some dogs are still going to be kicked around?
Jesus paid the sin debt for all men who accept that He did so, that He is God come in the Flesh, that He rose on the third day and now sits at the right hand of the Father, and who accept Jesus at his word when He said,
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
Will some be left out of ultimate salvation and not be with God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit for ever? That's what Jesus says and that's good enough for me. Is it "fair"? Supremely.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/19/2008 1:36:17 PM
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mcleod
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You know I just want to make this statement in which I see it as. Some of you would have a hard tiime in the Psalms in which someone writes in their emotions "they can't feel God's presences. He up and took off. I notice that Moses questioned God on certian matters of his life or even the discibles were also doing and questioning on certian matters. Which kind a shows in some ascepts they were a lot of times faithless in things. Weren't getting the story straight that he was teaching them.
Lord Knows I run into so-called christians and they have a wrong thought what God is and all about. Please I have not heard from Bell about they are different ways in which to recieve eternal life. But because he mention about a way in which to forgive a persons who has wrong you. You write as though it is right to have anger towards a person.
Believe me when I have in my mind forgiven that person without them saying they are sorry for rude ways in which they have treated me. Gets a big burden off my mind and next time I can say a least to them HI. Though I will probably not have great fellowship with them.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/19/2008 1:53:30 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
You know I just want to make this statement in which I see it as. Some of you would have a hard tiime in the Psalms in which someone writes in their emotions "they can't feel God's presences. He up and took off. I notice that Moses questioned God on certian matters of his life or even the discibles were also doing and questioning on certian matters. Which kind a shows in some ascepts they were a lot of times faithless in things. Weren't getting the story straight that he was teaching them.
Mcleod,
Getting something wrong, not understanding, or questioning are not crimes. And at the risk of speaking for others, I don't think anyone here is taking issue with those things when they happen in an authentic search or the course of a dynamic relationship with Christ.
However, emergents are doing something quite different. Emergents don't think they have it wrong, nor are they just having a momentary case of misunderstanding or difficulty believing something. They have thought about it; analyzed it; and concluded that: the Bible is not literally true and is not now, nor ever was intended to be a source of doctrine. They have concluded that [what evangelicals call] orthodox doctrine is wrong. They have intentionally constructed new interpretations of clear and unmistakeable verses about the Kingdom, redemption, and really just about everything else. They have attacked, libeled, slandered, and maligned the doctrines and practices of traditional Christianity to strengthen and justify their conclusions.
In light of that, I think you are criticizing the wrong people. We are not attacking them; instead we are defending ourselves, our brothers and sisters in the Lord, and the true message of our Lord from their half-truths, intentional lies, revision of history, and their reinterpetations of Jesus' message and mission. We are also seeking to protect those who might be deceived by their efforts.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/19/2008 6:18:40 PM
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Codegrazer
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quote:
I have no problem with the church "moving forward" or changing, just as long as they don't forget to take the Truth with them.
Well said.
There are those who would obfuscate the issue, hide from hard truths, and avoid a closer scrutiny of what the McLarenites REALLY are promoting by constantly avoiding the important questions, turning arguments around, spinning (they call it "reinterpreting) the Word and just plain trying to shift the focus from what's really at question to what is not.
I don't care who CALLS themselves a Christian. If they don't accept Jesus Christ as the only way to the Father and that His salvation work on the cross is a free gift that must be received and believed, irrespective of a persons so-called "goodness" in this world, they are no more Christian than a guy who wears a Red Sox uniform -- but plays for the Yankees -- is a Red Sox player. He doesn't meet the test of the definition of the term.
< Message edited by Codegrazer -- 8/19/2008 7:42:26 PM >
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/19/2008 6:25:16 PM
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GroupW
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Would you throw C.S. Lewis into that category?
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"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/19/2008 7:06:22 PM
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Codegrazer
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quote:
Would you throw C.S. Lewis into that category?
I don't know specifically about C.S. Lewis, but NO man, Lewis, Luther, McLaren or any other represents the standard for what Christianity is. Only Jesus. The very definition of Christ-tianity is to believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and saviour.
We must not look to MEN for our spiritual direction, inspiration or grounding but instead, at the end of the day when the things of men confuse and obfuscate, we must rely upon God's Holy Word, the Bible, to discern and test the spirit.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/20/2008 7:38:51 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
your passages was supposed to say what?
in reference to your post 233 - how many passages do you believe exist that talk of 'salvation' (let alone - deliverance, redemption, healing, restoration, reconcilliation, etc)?
mushead
in reference to post 234 - do you believe that's "it"?
i'd have to pull my copy of the book out to reference the page(s). maybe i'll be able to do so soon.
jazz
yes.
is it 'blurry'? no. rather it is deep and rich in texture, meaning, and consequence.
that question doesn't need to be answered to you.
good news....it's found in the gospels rather specifically. and the rest of scripture bears witness to it, and expounds on it greatly. in a nut shell - that god became man, suffered died rose again - all to redeem, and god was/is successfull.
same thing as question just previous to the last one.
word do mean things - and that's just the point, actually.
well, you have to read all the posts and maybe it'll make some sense to you.
codegrazer
you bet....oh, sorry "yes".
of course, you could have simply limited your statement to "salvation comes only through the grace of god".
"and so what"? are you kidding me? for folks who demand and demand and demand chapter/verse, i find it fascinating that you don't seem to think it matters.
that god and god's ways are not "simple" is "fleshly thinking"? whoa
so, jesus "paid the price" - but it's not "paid" for....seems there's some major holes there. if you're going to use fiscal analogies, they need to not fall apart so easily.
mushead
how the heck do you know what folks are doing? (in refeence to post 241)? i mean, go back and just read what you've posted (paraphrase): it's okay to be wrong, to not understand, to question...etc - but "THESE" folks are not just wrong, misunderstood, or the like - thus, it's not okay to be wrong, lack understanding, etc.
you're blantent over-statements is over the top, my friend.
"...what evangelicals call orthodox doctrine"....? is NOTHING (for the most part, i'd hate to over-state this, just an emphasis) - of what "ORTHODOX" has/had meant for the past 2,000 years. the word "orthodox" may be used, but meanings change .... .... .... interesting, yes?
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/20/2008 10:24:49 PM
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Codegrazer
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quote:
of course, you could have simply limited your statement to "salvation comes only through the grace of god".
No I definitely could not. The reason I could not is because God's grace and salvation ALSO depends on who's "god" you're talking about. Thus I had to specify Jesus. Our salvation ALSO depends upon whether a person accepts salvation on God's terms, or instead refuses to trust in Jesus as the only way to the Father, as Jesus Himself tells us. Men are saved by the grace of God (capitol "G") but not absolutely unconditionally--Jesus must be the Lord of our heart. That's simple to understand and Jesus' teaching of it is clearly and undeniably stated.
quote:
that god and god's ways are not "simple" is "fleshly thinking"? whoa
I did not say that God and His ways are simple, nor was that remotely my point. [But, of course, most of what God teaches us really is quite simple to understand. There's nothing complicated about the ten commandments, for example. He knows who He is talking to and our limitations.]
None-the-less, my point was that an extremely clear, basic, easy to understand description of how one receives salvation has been provided throughout the Bible (especially the NT) and is most clearly taught by Jesus' Himself. So, when you say that you "don't think a basic description of salvation is possible." you quite wrongly aren't accepting Jesus at His very Word. Flesh versus Spirit.
quote:
so, jesus "paid the price" - but it's not "paid" for....seems there's some major holes there.
Oh, brother. If there are holes there (and there aren't) I didn't put them there. This is God's Word you have a problem with, not mine. What part of Jesus' statement, "No one comes to the Father except through me." don't you understand (or rather, accept)???
Perhaps you are stumbling with the concept of grace. Just because we are saved by God's grace (and in context, not by our good works) does not mean that His grace comes to us with no conditions at all. The above scripture makes that clear.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/20/2008 10:59:32 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
but meanings change .... .... .... interesting, yes?
yes, the meanings change to fit the reasoning and traditions of the EC-USA
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/21/2008 7:07:32 AM
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facedown
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codegrazer
is there any other god?
is there any other who stretched out the heavens?
is there any other who is uncreated?
No. the god who made the world and everything in it is the god of heaven and earth, and doesn't live in temples, or that which has been built by hands, nor is he served by us, as if he needed anything, because god gives all life and breath, and everything else. god, though not far from -anyone- desires to be sought from all. and it is in god that we live, and move, and find our being.
no. there is no other god.
your accusations can take a hike, btw.
no, i have a problem with your words. and i totally understand that passage, btw.
perhaps "grace" is just that - "grace"?
it's clear from scripture that god did not come for (1) - but for (all). that god has forgiven, and that god is redeeming and reconcilling the world.
this is the good news, that the captives have been set free, that broken has bee bound.
that there are intimate details in what this good news is, is not denied. but so many times, we get stuck in a consequence, and then propose another consequence (like your fiscal analogy), that soon, before you know it, we've departed and cant seem to return to that which is primal.
actually, the message that is so often heard, is really nothing more than a sacrificial message. of a 'god' who demands to be served and sacrificed to, and then only then, will god change the weather of ones soul. and tomorrow (or by the end of the next sermon) it begins again.
colliefan
peace to you colliefan.
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/21/2008 8:25:45 AM
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jazzact13
Posts: 484
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
yes.
Ok. Sure.
quote:
is it 'blurry'? no. rather it is deep and rich in texture, meaning, and consequence.
Which still doesn't say anything about why you think there is no "basic description of salvation".
quote:
that question doesn't need to be answered to you.
Sure. Yeah. Whatever.
quote:
good news....it's found in the gospels rather specifically. and the rest of scripture bears witness to it, and expounds on it greatly. in a nut shell - that god became man, suffered died rose again - all to redeem, and god was/is successfull.
Careful, some of those other emergents aren't friends of nutshells.
So, by "all to redeem", do you mean that was all God did, or that God came to redeem all men?
quote:
same thing as question just previous to the last one.
Which had nothing to do with dogs being kicked.
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word do mean things - and that's just the point, actually.
Didn't answer the question.
quote:
well, you have to read all the posts and maybe it'll make some sense to you.
A poorly constructed sentence does not make sense.
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there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/21/2008 9:12:08 AM
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Codegrazer
Posts: 56
Joined: 9/12/2006
From: New York
Status: offline
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facedown:
quote:
perhaps "grace" is just that - "grace"?
Grace certainly IS grace. The unmerited blessing of God. We can not earn our way to heaven. However, we can rebell and refuse to receive God's grace. Grace is not a available to everyone at all times regardless of what they believe or what they do in this life, as scripture tells us. A man who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not receive the grace that includes spiritual salvation.
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." Mark 3:29
Men who teach a false Gospel will not benefit from God's grace and be saved.
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." Jude 1:4
A man who worships Satan will not receive grace. The list goes on.
Are we in agreement on this point, at least this far, facedown? Does a Satan worshiper spend eternity with God? A blasphemer of the Holy Spirit? Men who teach a false gospel? If not then we agree that ALL will not be saved. Correct?
< Message edited by Codegrazer -- 8/21/2008 10:17:11 AM >
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