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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/24/2008 12:58:10 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I'm sitting here seriously scratching my head asking myself, did I just watch the same video you all did? 
Yep, it was more about changing a business strategy. But this is how WC and the seeker movement markets itself: its about meeting felt needs instead of discipleship.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/24/2008 12:58:32 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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in my county church attendance has dropped by at least 20% our church about 40% numbers aren't always superficial. they say something.
we hear about numbers in the NT.
i would concur, our church is being church best to the same segments of population that the video describes.
wise leadership takes it's job seriously and goes back to the drawing board and to GOD to solve function failure.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/24/2008 1:01:04 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I'm sitting here seriously scratching my head asking myself, did I just watch the same video you all did?
Yep, it was more about changing a business strategy. But this is how WC and the seeker movement markets itself: its about meeting felt needs instead of discipleship.
i didn't hear that at all. it was looking specifically at the spiritual growth of each segment of attendees.
what specific needs did you hear mentioned on the video?
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/24/2008 1:01:25 PM
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colliefan
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He didn't say the leaders prayed and fasted for God's direction. More or less took a marketing survey.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/24/2008 1:07:52 PM
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StephK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
He didn't say the leaders prayed and fasted for God's direction. More or less took a marketing survey.
That was my take. There isn't anything wrong with getting feedback from their members but it should be done after leaders seek God's direction. That is what they are supposed to do. Sometimes what God wants to do in a congregation isn't what is popular, feels good, or even at times makes a lick of sense. However, when leaders obey God's direction He gets to work in accomplishing His will for that body of believers.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/24/2008 1:11:30 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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seeking God is was an objective after confirming that there was function failure.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/24/2008 1:21:09 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
what specific needs did you hear mentioned on the video?
The seeker model is built on addressing the "felt needs" on an individual such as relationships, budgets, et. instead of making disciples. This is the reason they have moved church to week days and have church-lite on Sunday where there is a sermon on felt needs with a gospel presentation at the end of the sermon. But no demand for death to self is given.
In the long term what this model delievers is a large group of individuals who were never discipled, never walked the Calvary Road, and whose prime method of evanglism is to get people to church so the pastor can save them.
When trials and tribulation come, the felt needs gospel provide a house built on shifting sands. And people walk away looking for another solution to their lives.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/24/2008 1:24:28 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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according to the VIDEO, it's all about discipleship and growing closer to Christ.
...and isn't this thread about a shift?
< Message edited by OLEEguacamole -- 5/24/2008 1:30:42 PM >
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/24/2008 1:34:27 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
according to the VIDEO, it's all about discipleship and growing closer to Christ. ...and isn't this thread about a shift?
Supposedly Willow is shifting away from the seeker model. What they are shifting to remains unclear.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/25/2008 8:01:47 PM
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stellaluna
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I say it's about time to shift away from seeker mode. (As long as it's shifting toward something positive.) I ca't get the video to load at the moment, but it seems to me there's some fear that preaching and teaching the truth will drive people away. You don't need to look further than Mark Driscoll to see that isn't the case. (Mars Hill Church) People want the truth; they just don't want hypocrisy.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/25/2008 8:42:13 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
People want the truth; they just don't want hypocrisy.
When one has cancer, it isn't loving for the doctor to tell his patient that everything is benign. The Cross cuts deep and the Master Physician use the Sword to do the needed surgery. Unless one bows before the Cross spirtual healing is impossible.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 2:52:22 PM
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phosadaud
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This is what I'm not getting about what some of you are seeing in the video. I am not addressing this to all (and maybe no one, because I don't know your hearts), but I want to humbly ask some of you to look into your hearts and ask yourselves if maybe, just maybe, the critical spirit you have is not justified and that maybe you are seeing reasons for condemnation that are not there.
First, you have to understand the point of the video. It is to pastors and it is to explain why they did the "Reveal" study. It is not a comprehensive, to do list on how to find God's will like some of you seem to think. It is simply a look at where their hearts are: God convicting them that they needed to refocus on the "main thing" and what practical steps GOD used to help them see what direction GOD wanted them to take to minister more to the body of Christ.
Second, I guarantee, promise and swear on a Bible that this process included much prayer and probably fasting. That is the heart of these pastors and I can't understand how some of you can't see that (or refuse to see that). That is not the point of the video. The video is a simple explanation of what God did - and the direction He moved them in. I don't know what point there would be in saying "God told us" and "the Holy Spirit moved us" every other sentence. That's kind of a given. It's also a pet-peeve of mine how we are so ready to accuse folks and wag our fingers at folks because of what we think they should have said instead of actually hearing what they are saying. Read the Scriptures folks. Some of you are expecting more out of today's pastors than you do out of the original Apostles. And I see NO Scripture that says it's ok to condemn someone because you think they didn't spell it out enough... 
Third, I'm curious why some think that God can and does only speak in one way? God speaks to me in many ways. He speaks to me through Scripture. He speaks to me through conviction of the Holy Spirit in my heart. He speaks to me through others. He speaks to me through science and study. When we limit how the Lord speaks, we limit God.
What I see in that video are men who I can look up to and respect. Why? Because unlike so many in the church today, they are HONEST! Anyone who has done ANY kind of ministry and who is in step with God's Spirit knows that ministry is a spiritual battle. You will struggle with losing sight of the main thing at times. You will tend to focus on the wrong things at times (I remember my own struggles with "what was wrong with me as a leader" when my small group wasn't growing and God had to show me what He was doing in folks hearts). That's what the video is addressing!
This is for pastors. It is men humbling themselves before a crowd ready to throw stones and admit that they struggle with these things too and what they are doing to refocus and meet the needs of those the Lord has charged them with.
As far as asking folks what they need - FINALLY!!!! One thing I have slowly learned over the years is that instead of trying to figure out what folks need on my own or simply expect God to somehow audibly speak to me and say do "x", I need to, in prayer, actually GO to the individual who needs to be ministered to and ASK them what they need and what I can do that would be the biggest blessing. There seem to be 2 extremes in today's churches. One extreme is so heavily focused on winning folks to Christ (which, ummm, is a good thing folks!) and helping baby Christians build a firm foundation, that they miss the needs of those who are ready for meat. Other churches, tend to be so heavily focused on meat that they just expect the seeker and the baby Christian to just get it and move from milk to meat on their own. Taken to either extreme, NEITHER is a good thing.
That's not "consumer" driven. That's people driven.
And it's time the church stop telling folks what they need and start actually COMMUNICATING with them. God's Spirit will speak!
Go Willowcreek!
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 3:29:25 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1100
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
People want the truth; they just don't want hypocrisy.
When one has cancer, it isn't loving for the doctor to tell his patient that everything is benign. The Cross cuts deep and the Master Physician use the Sword to do the needed surgery. Unless one bows before the Cross spirtual healing is impossible.
sometimes people need vitamins not surgery. not every ailment is cancer or surgery worthy.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 3:40:50 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Anyone who has done ANY kind of ministry and who is in step with God's Spirit knows that ministry is a spiritual battle,
I have been involved in a ministry to womens prison for over twenty years. Our audience is women just being process - or, in most cases reprocessed - to the correctional system. The vast majority of women we encounter have made a "salvation decision" at some point of their lives. They were never discipled! The fact that no one cared to disciple them is one reason I detest the WC model of chuch-lite and its lack of emphasis on it in moving it away from the time most people come to church. Just having people look up at the pastor when all heads are bowed does not make a convert.
The seeker model ignores the command to carry one's cross amd die to self. It treats the gospel as a self-improvement project. It is dangerous in that it deludes people into a false assurance of salvation. "I prayed the prayer, but I am still living with my boyfriend so I must be saved."
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 4:04:22 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10647
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Anyone who has done ANY kind of ministry and who is in step with God's Spirit knows that ministry is a spiritual battle,
I have been involved in a ministry to womens prison for over twenty years. Our audience is women just being process - or, in most cases reprocessed - to the correctional system. The vast majority of women we encounter have made a "salvation decision" at some point of their lives. They were never discipled! The fact that no one cared to disciple them is one reason I detest the WC model of chuch-lite and its lack of emphasis on it in moving it away from the time most people come to church. Just having people look up at the pastor when all heads are bowed does not make a convert.
The seeker model ignores the command to carry one's cross amd die to self. It treats the gospel as a self-improvement project. It is dangerous in that it deludes people into a false assurance of salvation. "I prayed the prayer, but I am still living with my boyfriend so I must be saved."
Let me first address what I bolded. Can you show me where WC teaches this?
Also, how do you believe one becomes saved? Do they have to "clean up" and become a good person first or is that the RESULT of being saved? What you posted makes me wonder if we have the same understanding of salvation because it sounds like you are saying one is saved by works.
OK, moving on: First, "seeker-sensitive" does not have to equal "church-lite". Churches actually can do both. In my church, when the Pastor is about to read a passage from Scripture, he will actually help folks find it (it's in the middle after this book and before that book) and will actually use that short time to help people learn more about the Bible. I would classify that is "seeker-sensitive". It's certainly not for those of us who grew up in the church and Sunday school. However, it takes into account that there are folks in the service who don't know God yet and there are folks in the service who have run long races in the Lord.
The fact is, church can get off in EITHER direction (seeker sensitive or the opposite). I'm not an expert on WC, but I have never seen them compromise the Gospel or lie to avoid preaching the truth. What I have seen has been biblical. I grew up in a church that compromised the Word. Trust me, when I say I know what that looks like. Could they do a better job? Well, apparently they think so. God bless them for their honesty. I wish we had more of that in today's church. NONE of us are doing it perfect. Why do we act as if we are?
And, I'm trying to understand why you are critisizing them when the entire point of the video & book is to refocus on discipling. They recognize that some folks needs milk and some need meat and the church in general is great at providing milk but needs to also be great at teaching people to hunt for meat. I mean seriously, what's the problem??? What sin is WC so guilty of?
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 4:09:15 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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hmmmm....i recall that the video was all about discipleship.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 8:52:12 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Let me first address what I bolded. Can you show me where WC teaches this?
My last church was a WC wanna-be. That was the practice the past had instead of a formal, come foward invitation. "I don't want to embarass anyone. just look at me and I know you are saved." No call to repentance and godly living.
Instead the seeker-model to have the felt-needs sermons on Sundays for seekers with discipleship sermons during the week. In the seeker model, discipleship is shoved down to SS.
Jesus' call was livechanging. Must die to self. Must carry ones cross. No one who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is fit for the kingdom. One must hate his family. Must foresake all and follow-him.
The gospel presented in the seeker model is akin to puting a spiritual band-aid on an emotional boo-boo.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 8:55:32 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
I mean seriously, what's the problem??? What sin is WC so guilty of?
The model allows a person to remain too long at the spiritual milk stage.
This stage is fine for small groups and seperate classes and must not be the main focus of Sunday mornings. Other than that, they are prey for the circus that is Todd Bentley in his Lakeland "Revival."
< Message edited by colliefan -- 5/26/2008 9:01:34 PM >
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 9:16:58 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10647
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Let me first address what I bolded. Can you show me where WC teaches this?
My last church was a WC wanna-be. That was the practice the past had instead of a formal, come foward invitation. "I don't want to embarass anyone. just look at me and I know you are saved." No call to repentance and godly living.
Instead the seeker-model to have the felt-needs sermons on Sundays for seekers with discipleship sermons during the week. In the seeker model, discipleship is shoved down to SS.
Jesus' call was livechanging. Must die to self. Must carry ones cross. No one who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is fit for the kingdom. One must hate his family. Must foresake all and follow-him.
The gospel presented in the seeker model is akin to puting a spiritual band-aid on an emotional boo-boo.
1st, you're judging WC based on another church? 
Also, tradition says that one has to go to the front when one is saved. That isn't Scripture. Jesus simply said to repent and believe - not go to the front of the church and wave your hand. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but we shouldn't make up rules for what makes a "true" conversion. I can give you a list of names of folks who did all the outward signs but never had an inward change. And I can list folks who never waved their hand in church but were radically changed and converted. And are you saying when the pastors presented salvation all they said is that if you look at me, your saved? Somehow, I seriously doubt that. I have a strange suspician there was a lot more said and presented coming up to that point.
Also, what Scripture says exactly what Sunday services are supposed to look like? Why can discipleship ONLY happen on a Sunday morning? The best discipleship I've ever had was in small groups with accountability and deep relationships - not sitting in a pew listening to a great sermon. I'm not knocking that. I love a powerful sermon, but why do you think discipleship is supposed to happen in "x" spot, but not "y" spot? Shouldn't they happen in various ways in both? And not just sitting in a pew on Sunday morning?
One of the great things about discipleship in a small group is that you can focus in on where people are at. You aren't feeding meat to newborns and you aren't giving milk to mature believers. In a Sunday morning service, you have folks at every step in their faith. One of the biggest challenges is to try and meet all the needs of all the believers (and not run off those who are seeking as Paul discusses in Corinthians regarding tongues).
It seems like we think church is supposed to minister to us and everyone else just needs to get over it. When we are seeking, we want the church to help us find what we are seeking. When we are newborns, we want the church to help us build a firm foundation. When we mature, we think the church is supposed to focus on us the mature believer. I don't see this in Scripture. I see Jesus coming to folks where they are at and endeavoring to minister to ALL His sheep - going after the lost, gently leading the young, caring for the older. That's the balance WC is seeking to meet and yet we wag our fingers of condemnation at them and I don't get it.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 9:32:24 PM
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colliefan
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Good gravy! This is precisely what WC is trying to address. Did you watch the entire video?
Yes, and this wasn't mentioned, No mention of catechising new believers before they are received into church membership or are baptised.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 10:13:01 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
even with baptism! People used to be baptised upon conversion - not after taking various catechism classes and after they became "clean enough".
NO. This shows how WC has dumbed you down and made you ignorant of church history. There was time before a person made a confession and was accepted into the church. Communion was not given to everyone as not to embarrass someone’s. Church leaders made sure a person had a solid understanding of church doctrine before being accepted into the fellowship. They were grounded in the historic creeds: the Apostles, the Nicene, and the Athanasian.
The days of the Reformation individuals had to be catechized: that is taught, sound doctrine. Examples would be the Westminster, Heidelberg, the 39 Articles.
But WC is not alone in neglecting disciplining its members. Far too many do not base their teachings on solid doctrine.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 10:17:36 PM
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Roberta_
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From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Far too many do not base their teachings on solid doctrine.
Ain't that the truth!!
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 10:22:04 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1100
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
even with baptism! People used to be baptised upon conversion - not after taking various catechism classes and after they became "clean enough".
NO. This shows how WC has dumbed you down and made you ignorant of church history. There was time before a person made a confession and was accepted into the church. Communion was not given to everyone as not to embarrass someone’s. Church leaders made sure a person had a solid understanding of church doctrine before being accepted into the fellowship. They were grounded in the historic creeds: the Apostles, the Nicene, and the Athanasian.
The days of the Reformation individuals had to be catechized: that is taught, sound doctrine. Examples would be the Westminster, Heidelberg, the 39 Articles.
But WC is not alone in neglecting disciplining its members. Far too many do not base their teachings on solid doctrine.
kindly demonstrate from scripture the requirement of catechism before baptism.
i think it is VERY misleading to keep pounding the "no discipleship" drum in this thread when the whole point is WC is declaring a shift towards effective discipleship.
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