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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 10:37:07 PM
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colliefan
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
kindly demonstrate from scripture the requirement of catechism before baptism.
One thing that must be kept in mind is that the Jewish thought that is the basis for the NT. The Jewish and NT concept of time is far from what we think (Chronos vs kairos)
While there is no direct command as to this the basis behind this is clear. Paul spent 13 years before begining his ministry. The Apostles spent 3 years before starting their ministries. When people were baptised they renounced their sins and walked into the setting sun. Don't let verses in Acts confuse you as to the time.
Jesus was tough on his followers. Look up all the "unless you,,," commands.. Too many see conversion as a personal decision alone rather than one made in the context of community. Conversion is a death sentence: death to self. Individuals converting from Islam know this means seperation from all that is familiar. Too much of the church does not understand this fact.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 10:41:54 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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quote:
Second, I guarantee, promise and swear on a Bible that this process included much prayer and probably fasting
Probably????? You don't know if your leaders fast when a hard decision is needed?
It would have been better is he had something to the effect of " we looked where the church was at and prayed/fasted as to where we should go." Instead we took a survey...
I am angry b/c the seeker model has been successful at the dumbing down of the church for the past couple of decades. This convinces people they are saved b/c they prayed the sinners prayer (with no signs of repentance) when in fact, they are hell bound.
< Message edited by colliefan -- 5/26/2008 10:50:25 PM >
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 10:58:05 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10647
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
even with baptism! People used to be baptised upon conversion - not after taking various catechism classes and after they became "clean enough".
NO. This shows how WC has dumbed you down and made you ignorant of church history. There was time before a person made a confession and was accepted into the church. Communion was not given to everyone as not to embarrass someone’s. Church leaders made sure a person had a solid understanding of church doctrine before being accepted into the fellowship. They were grounded in the historic creeds: the Apostles, the Nicene, and the Athanasian.
The days of the Reformation individuals had to be catechized: that is taught, sound doctrine. Examples would be the Westminster, Heidelberg, the 39 Articles.
But WC is not alone in neglecting disciplining its members. Far too many do not base their teachings on solid doctrine.
I base my understanding on Scripture. Here are just a few examples of what Scripture says. I would recommend reading the book of Acts for many more examples.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 16:30 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.
There is no confusion on the time here. We are not talking about someone starting ministry. We are talking about someone being baptized. This was immediate. Not after classes and years of discipleship. Jesus commanded in Matthew 28 to preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth baptizing folks. There is no mention of a required catechism class.
You can twist it anyway you wish, but don't add to Scripture.
And you still won't answer my question regarding what you believe in regards to salvation which is seriously making me think that you are the one who does not have a biblical understanding of salvation. I could be wrong, so please answer my question. I don't want to put words in your mouth.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 11:00:48 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10647
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Jesus was tough on his followers. Look up all the "unless you,,," commands.. Too many see conversion as a personal decision alone rather than one made in the context of community. Conversion is a death sentence: death to self. Individuals converting from Islam know this means seperation from all that is familiar. Too much of the church does not understand this fact.
This makes no sense. Conversion is an individual decision - an individual decision to accept the Lord's gift of grace and follow Him wherever He leads. We are all individually accountable to what we do with His gift. Community is what we are a part of as the Body (no lone Christians out there).
And I have no idea what this has to do with WC...
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 11:05:15 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1100
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Second, I guarantee, promise and swear on a Bible that this process included much prayer and probably fasting
Probably????? You don't know if your leaders fast when a hard decision is needed?
It would have been better is he had something to the effect of " we looked where the church was at and prayed/fasted as to where we should go." Instead we took a survey...
I am angry b/c the seeker model has been successful at the dumbing down of the church for the past couple of decades. This convinces people they are saved b/c they prayed the sinners prayer (with no signs of repentance) when in fact, they are hell bound.
this thread isn't really about the seeker model. it's about leader taking serious thought about discipleship.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 11:20:18 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2341
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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The problem with this is that Willow Creek was one of the innovators of the Seeker movement that affected how church was done. It's not just about Willow Creek and it is a big deal because Willow Creek Association is more than one church. There are over 12,000 churches in the WCA. Every church that used this particular model is basically going to have the same results.
Just from looking at their website and seeing who they are getting in for their many conferences this church and it's association is moving towards the emergent church movement. That's possibly 12,000 plus churches following along for the next church fad.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 11:29:30 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10647
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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#1 The Willowcreek Association is nothing more than churches who pay some dues to get various resources & discounts, etc. It is not one big church association.
#2 What exactly is wrong with what they are moving toward? (discipleship for all places in a Christian's walk) Folks keep throwing out words, but I want to know what specifically is contrary to Scripture that they are doing.
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~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/26/2008 11:36:43 PM
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StephK
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Those resources reflect the positions of Willow Creek. It did not work.
Read up on the emergent church in both the ministy & leaders forum and I think down this forum to see the problems with that movement.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/27/2008 12:50:49 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
I base my understanding on Scripture
The creeds and the confessions are based on Scripture and are a summary of its teachings.
In terms of Salvation:
- it is a free gift of God
- not of works
- based on Christ's atoning work on the cross that pays for past, present and future sins
- is the entry for the HS in a believer's life and is the starting point of a lifetime of salvation. The HS begins a renewing of the mind. By this there is a change of direction in ones life. Starts a ongoing hunger for God's word and His people. Will want to correct past wrongs
- from transfered by the Father from death to life in Christ Jesus
- a complete renuication of sin is needed: must be dead to sin. Can now longer willingly persist in ongoing sins
- freed from the penalty of sin which is eternal seperation from the father
- must carry one's cross. not looking back. does not consider the cost
- a changed lifestyle is proof that is authentic
< Message edited by colliefan -- 5/27/2008 12:58:52 PM >
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/27/2008 1:54:47 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1100
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the fact that christians are called to LIVE a life for Christ, does not demonstrate that all should be catechismed before baptism.
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there's life in a pit.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/27/2008 3:22:42 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10647
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
Those resources reflect the positions of Willow Creek. It did not work.
Read up on the emergent church in both the ministy & leaders forum and I think down this forum to see the problems with that movement.
WC offered many resources.
As far as the emergent movement, I used to participate in some of those threads but the whole "guilt by association" garbage got old really fast. See, the movement is about structure and style and no one wants to discuss that. They just want to lump every church who operates in an emergent style in with the churches with an emergent style that are off. It doesn't work that way. Are there churches out there who are "emergent" and off in lala land? Absolutely and I condemn them. However, they would be off in lala land if they were fundy, liturgical, traditional or charismatic.
That's why I want to discuss WILLOWCREEK in this thread - not some church halfway across that nation that couldn't find it's left foot. And that's why I keep asking specifically regarding what WILLOWCREEK is doing/teaching that is heretical. So far, no one has presented anything other than guilt by association garbage which is not a biblical model for how we are to judge.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/27/2008 3:24:52 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10647
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
I base my understanding on Scripture
The creeds and the confessions are based on Scripture and are a summary of its teachings.
In terms of Salvation:
- it is a free gift of God
- not of works
- based on Christ's atoning work on the cross that pays for past, present and future sins
- is the entry for the HS in a believer's life and is the starting point of a lifetime of salvation. The HS begins a renewing of the mind. By this there is a change of direction in ones life. Starts a ongoing hunger for God's word and His people. Will want to correct past wrongs
- from transfered by the Father from death to life in Christ Jesus
- a complete renuication of sin is needed: must be dead to sin. Can now longer willingly persist in ongoing sins
- freed from the penalty of sin which is eternal seperation from the father
- must carry one's cross. not looking back. does not consider the cost
- a changed lifestyle is proof that is authentic
You claimed that one must become a solid Christian first before being baptized and that this idea was biblical.
I showed it was not.
The creeds have nothing to do with that so I'm not sure why you are bringing them up now.
I know them well. I grew up in a church that recited them every week. We're not talking about the creeds here, unless you want to show me what part of the creeds WC isn't following.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/27/2008 5:18:38 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
the fact that christians are called to LIVE a life for Christ, does not demonstrate that all should be catechismed before baptism.
Then how are they to learn how to live? The catachisms teach how to live the Christian life.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/27/2008 5:36:04 PM
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narnia
Posts: 555
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True, you don't need to be all cleaned up to receive salvation. But after salvation comes sanctification. People here are saying that salvation only seems to be the focus of WC, not sanctification. Sanctification is the ongoing work it takes for one to be more like Christ.
There should be more signs of peace, love, gentlenesss, faithfulness, longsuffering in someone who is working on their sanctification.
That's where WC has failed, which they admit. The cleaning up of one's life should begin and contiue on after salvation.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/27/2008 10:05:24 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Discipleship. Which is exactly what WC is trying to do.
When they realized the seeker model wasn't effective at producing disciples.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/27/2008 10:31:06 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
So does that mean you agree with them now? Or do you still think they are horrid? 
Provided their overarching goal is to create followers who wiil
Matt 28:18 - 20 (ESV) 18And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in£ the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Who will
Isa 58:1 - 14 (ESV) 1 “Cry aloud; do not hold back; lift up your voice like a trumpet; declare to my people their transgression, to the house of Jacob their sins.
2 Yet they seek me daily and delight to know my ways, as if they were a nation that did righteousness and did not forsake the judgment of their God; they ask of me righteous judgments; they delight to draw near to God.
3 ‘Why have we fasted, and you see it not? Why have we humbled ourselves, and you take no knowledge of it?’ Behold, in the day of your fast you seek your own pleasure,£ and oppress all your workers.
4 Behold, you fast only to quarrel and to fight and to hit with a wicked fist. Fasting like yours this day will not make your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is such the fast that I choose, a day for a person to humble himself? Is it to bow down his head like a reed, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? Will you call this a fast, and a day acceptable to the Lord?
6 “Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed£ go free, and to break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
8 Then shall your light break forth like the dawn, and your healing shall spring up speedily; your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9 Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer; you shall cry, and he will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you take away the yoke from your midst, the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
10 if you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday.
11 And the Lord will guide you continually and satisfy your desire in scorched places and make your bones strong; and you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.
12 And your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt; you shall raise up the foundations of many generations; you shall be called the repairer of the breach, the restorer of streets to dwell in.
13 “If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure£ on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight and the holy day of the Lord honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure,£ or talking idly;
£ 14 then you shall take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;£ I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
And teach concepts such as
In every Christian’s heart there is a cross and a throne, and the Christian is on the throne till he puts himself on the cross; if he refuses the cross, he remains on the throne. Perhaps this is at the bottom of the backsliding and worldliness among gospel believers today. We want to be saved, but we insist that Christ do all the dying. No cross for us, no dethronement, no dying. We remain king within the little kingdom of Mansoul and wear our tinsel crown with all the pride of a Caesar; but we doom ourselves to shadows and weakness and spiritual sterility.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
Jesus has many lovers of the heavenly kingdom, but few bearers of his cross. He has many desirous of consolation, but few of tribulation. He finds many companions of his table, but few of his abstinence. All desire to rejoice with him, few are willing to endure anything for him, or with him. Many follow Jesus to the breaking of bread, but few to the drinking of the cup. Many reverence his miracles, few follow the ignominy of his cross. Many love Jesus so long as no adversities befall them, many praise and bless him so long as they receive any consolations from him; but if Jesus hides himself and leaves them but a little while, they fall either into complaining or into too much dejection of mind.
Thomas à Kempis (c. 1380–1471)
We talk about the joys and comforts of salvation; Jesus Christ talks about taking up the cross and following him.
Oswald Chambers (1874–1917)
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/28/2008 8:18:42 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1524
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From: Northern IL
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Well then if that's the definition Willow is far from that.
_____________________________
Deb
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 8/17/2008 7:01:32 PM
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selahgirl
Posts: 1237
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: God is with you, never forget that <3
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I had heard my former church leaders refer to Willow Creek as one of the models they were following, but I never knew much about it. With all the recent news, I just read an article summarizing it's philosophies and approach to ministry. And I literally wanted to throw up. I came out of a Vineyard church run by men who were running it based on the strategies, statistics and agendas of business. This is so eye-opening for me, but sickening at the same time. I now understand how things reached such a level of dehumanizing people and creating such a sterile approach to ministry and leadership. Such a dictatorship, pastor/leader worship. So much makes sense now.
That business mind-set of running a church is a big suckie thing that rips people/relationships apart in so many ways. Leadership loses site of people and enters into thinking of them as "projects." They can hack someone up with the most sterile mindset while observing the polls and checking off lists made by the eccentric minds of their think-tanks. The church becomes a lab, and people end up in cages at the mercy of men consumed by selfish ambition. Seeker-friendly... heard the term... only now recognized the beast that was once such a part of my life... the devourer smiling in the pulpit with bloody teeth.
The church should be leading all to grow and mature. If you're standing still... you're stagnant... and decay inevitably sets in. The traditional church has always had classes for every level of growth necessary... including seeker-friendly classes and fellowship groups... call it what you want: new converts, new life, seeker friendly. Special services, evening services, bible studies, fellowship gatherings.... The balance and the order of tradition is a hedge of protection. It needed some adjusting, but chucking it out the window and creating a disdain for it was foolish with a capitol F.
All this hype about a seeker friendly church is nothing more than a power-trip for eccentric businessmen, a cheap carney act consumed with wowing a crowd. I'm disgusted with the whole process. I've seen it fail miserably and I've seen the carnage of it all. It empowers a leadership by dumbing down the congregation. It sets it up so that a small group of elite businessmen wearing leadership labels governs the brainless new believers and incapable peons in the congregation.
Small wonder manipulation permeates every aspect of such a leadership. Small wonder how threatened they feel when the congregation begins to hunger for the meat of the Word. Small wonder leaders begin meeting behind closed doors and in secret as they strategize and rehearse what the congregation will be told. How to guide and control their behavior and beliefs... what key members of influence to wine and dine to use as pawns when damage control is necessary. What fear tactics and methods of intimidation will keep those undesirables in their place. Talk about the evils of a caste system...
God is ripping the veil off of all that was hidden. Everything done in secret is exposed. So much masked in false humility and idolatry... that talking down your nose to people that are beneath you... too ignorant to be taught Truth, too insignificant to talk to God or to hear from him themselves... how arrogant. So much so, that the Bible doesn't really matter anymore... what your leaders say must become your mantra.
Ironic that everything they complain about that the traditional church was doing wrong, they have become... they accuse the traditional church of being Pharisee, while they walk around abusing all authority -- simply to be seen by men as something great. It's like it has been a return to the dark ages. Dumb down the people and they're easier to control.
yes, I'm angry... Good people have died or lie near death in their faith at the hands of such leadership. The devil hasn't changed his tactics. He continues to steal and to kill and to destroy.
But God remains greater, and where sin abounds, grace does much more abound. There is hope. The Spirit of Truth speaks and a cleansing wind is blowing. God is restoring the church to holiness, to right thinking, to the Word of God, to Truth. She is wiser and stronger and her beauty returns.
Sight is restored... healing is now.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 8/18/2008 1:51:45 AM
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cih92
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Here is a link to a video interview of Bill Hybels responding to "Willow Creek's Huge Shift":
http://revealnow.com/story.asp?storyid=63
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