RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (Full Version)

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TMeeks -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 1:44:06 PM)

Who is the minister working for? Is it a church or is it God? If God, then consider this...

God is the author of all knowledge. He knows everything there is to know about everything that exists. He has given us the Bible as a revelation about his person and work in our lives in a direct sense and given us a brain to discover the wonders of his creation in a wider sense.

I have a hard time reconciling hiring a person that fails to recognize how much they have to learn about God to be a good steward in performing His work. So, at the very least I would look for someone that has the intellectual equal of a minimum of a four year degree in Bible as a full time pastor. If they fail to have the piece of paper to prove that they had the desire to learn more about him, then they should be tested on the depth of their knowledge and understanding of the work that God would have them perform in the church.



pberardi -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 1:56:19 PM)

I have been a Christian for eight years. I would say that based on my experience of attending dozens of different churches that basically most churches are lost. Most committees and church boards do not have the courage to hire a pastor that does not have the traditional degree. Unfortunately Satan is in the church too, we know from God's Word that the tares grow up with the wheat until the very end. I had a close friend that went to seminary and to be honest all he ever learned was how to interpret scripture using commentaries of other men. I feel that the seminary system is a totally worldly system. If I were to run a seminary, you would get two books, the KJV Bible and a Strong Concordance. Pastors should be memorizing scripture not commentaries. I love church and it is difficult for me to stay away even if I know that the church is wrong half the time. For instance the current church I go to requires pastors to listen to the tapes of the founder of the church so that the pastors can "correctly" interpret scripture. This is ludicrous. I think that a pastor should have a desire to bring others to the Lord and should rest solely upon his relationship with Jesus for guidance on how to interpret scripture. Unfortunately, the church has gone the way of Cain and has chosen worldly wisdom over the wisdom of God.



crankius -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 3:06:53 PM)

quote:

For instance the current church I go to requires pastors to listen to the tapes of the founder of the church so that the pastors can "correctly" interpret scripture.


That is very strange.



hjemerson -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 3:08:28 PM)

PBR Sorry you are in a church you do not agree with, Then you must keep seeking the Lords and find the church that can feed you , Seek and you will find. or even check in to starting a church in your locall area that , Aagin you have to find other s like mind and agreement. Many of the christian school have gotton away from the BIBLE but again you have use the best you have for the Lord work. I remember when Chrisian (some still do) belive the Intrernet was only of the devil. Chritian have to be in the world not of the worls take as youmay . If not How would we share the good news?



armydude -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 3:26:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

quote:

For instance the current church I go to requires pastors to listen to the tapes of the founder of the church so that the pastors can "correctly" interpret scripture.


That is very strange.
Yep. That's a pretty high elevation for anyone...



bluestone -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 4:02:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BibleL7

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I would never consider sitting under the pastoral ministry of someone who had not at least gone to Bible school, and preferably college. I want someone who has studied in the original languages, who has some courses in counseling and church management under his belt.

Too many yahoos proclaim themselves to be preachers, then get hired into churches and cause disaster, or lead people astray. Sometimes it is malicious, other times it is from sincere but ignorant men.

Education is not the only requirement, but it should be a given.



As for the first part of your post I would say you would probably miss out on one of the best pastoral ministries ever. Very few even going to college or Bible school ever study the original languages. As for courses in counseling that is usually secular and does not consider the Bible whatsoever. And church management is the job of the treasurer or trustees or in other churches elder boards.
As to the second part that happens more with those who attend college or seminary more often than those who learn under pastors or are self taught for most who do not have the formal education who proclaim their calling are first licensed by and serve under a pastor for several years before he would be allowed to be ordained. With or without formal education I believe that if a person does not serve at least a year under a pastor they should not be considered for pastor position. Then the church seeking the pastor could ask the pastor as to the persons abilities.



Not in the denomination I have been a part of. The colleges and universities require ministerial students to take either Hebrew or Greek. Counseling courses are required, as are church management courses. Of course boards take care of finances, but in smaller churches many of the duties fall on pastors.

I have been in the church all of my life (nearly fifty years). I have seen people proclaim themselves preachers, get up and misinterpret scripture, lead people astray and get paid for doing so. One was in my family.

Pastoring a congregation and leading people in Bible study are very serious tasks. It behooves those doing so to learn as much as possible.
Today there are Internet study courses, home study courses, Bible school and Christian colleges offering home study. They don't have to pack up and move across country to get an education as in the old days. There really is no excuse, other than not having the intelligence to complete a course of study, and that should keep them from pastoring anyway.



TMeeks -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 4:37:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pberardi

I have been a Christian for eight years. I would say that based on my experience of attending dozens of different churches that basically most churches are lost. Most committees and church boards do not have the courage to hire a pastor that does not have the traditional degree. Unfortunately Satan is in the church too, we know from God's Word that the tares grow up with the wheat until the very end. I had a close friend that went to seminary and to be honest all he ever learned was how to interpret scripture using commentaries of other men. I feel that the seminary system is a totally worldly system. If I were to run a seminary, you would get two books, the KJV Bible and a Strong Concordance. Pastors should be memorizing scripture not commentaries. I love church and it is difficult for me to stay away even if I know that the church is wrong half the time. For instance the current church I go to requires pastors to listen to the tapes of the founder of the church so that the pastors can "correctly" interpret scripture. This is ludicrous. I think that a pastor should have a desire to bring others to the Lord and should rest solely upon his relationship with Jesus for guidance on how to interpret scripture. Unfortunately, the church has gone the way of Cain and has chosen worldly wisdom over the wisdom of God.


It is not the fact that pastors have degrees that is hampering the church. It's the fact that many people in the church worship ignorance over substance. They want to be unfettered in their interpretation of Scripture and education hampers that freedom. The problem with 'resting solely upon his relationship with Jesus' is that many are listening to Satan and calling it the voice of Jesus. In fact, it is the Scriptures that should be interpreting the Scriptures... which one learns to do in seminary or Bible College. I noticed that your curriculum didn't include Greek or Hebrew.

Did God give us the Bible in the King James Version? Or, did he give us the Bible in Greek and Hebrew? Is the King James version innerrant? To say so is to claim that MEN, 1600 years after the birth of Christ were innerrant. To claim so is to miss the beauty and nuances of the original Greek and Hebrew forever. One can love God and NOT be ignorant.



TMeeks -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 4:39:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

quote:

ORIGINAL: BibleL7

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I would never consider sitting under the pastoral ministry of someone who had not at least gone to Bible school, and preferably college. I want someone who has studied in the original languages, who has some courses in counseling and church management under his belt.

Too many yahoos proclaim themselves to be preachers, then get hired into churches and cause disaster, or lead people astray. Sometimes it is malicious, other times it is from sincere but ignorant men.

Education is not the only requirement, but it should be a given.



As for the first part of your post I would say you would probably miss out on one of the best pastoral ministries ever. Very few even going to college or Bible school ever study the original languages. As for courses in counseling that is usually secular and does not consider the Bible whatsoever. And church management is the job of the treasurer or trustees or in other churches elder boards.
As to the second part that happens more with those who attend college or seminary more often than those who learn under pastors or are self taught for most who do not have the formal education who proclaim their calling are first licensed by and serve under a pastor for several years before he would be allowed to be ordained. With or without formal education I believe that if a person does not serve at least a year under a pastor they should not be considered for pastor position. Then the church seeking the pastor could ask the pastor as to the persons abilities.



Not in the denomination I have been a part of. The colleges and universities require ministerial students to take either Hebrew or Greek. Counseling courses are required, as are church management courses. Of course boards take care of finances, but in smaller churches many of the duties fall on pastors.

I have been in the church all of my life (nearly fifty years). I have seen people proclaim themselves preachers, get up and misinterpret scripture, lead people astray and get paid for doing so. One was in my family.

Pastoring a congregation and leading people in Bible study are very serious tasks. It behooves those doing so to learn as much as possible.
Today there are Internet study courses, home study courses, Bible school and Christian colleges offering home study. They don't have to pack up and move across country to get an education as in the old days. There really is no excuse, other than not having the intelligence to complete a course of study, and that should keep them from pastoring anyway.


AMEN!!!



pberardi -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 6:22:17 PM)

Yes you make some good points. I can definitely see the value in studying the original languages. However when seminaries focus more upon the different denominations and doctrines that men have formed, they aren't really studying the Bible. At least that is the way that I see it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

quote:

ORIGINAL: pberardi

I have been a Christian for eight years. I would say that based on my experience of attending dozens of different churches that basically most churches are lost. Most committees and church boards do not have the courage to hire a pastor that does not have the traditional degree. Unfortunately Satan is in the church too, we know from God's Word that the tares grow up with the wheat until the very end. I had a close friend that went to seminary and to be honest all he ever learned was how to interpret scripture using commentaries of other men. I feel that the seminary system is a totally worldly system. If I were to run a seminary, you would get two books, the KJV Bible and a Strong Concordance. Pastors should be memorizing scripture not commentaries. I love church and it is difficult for me to stay away even if I know that the church is wrong half the time. For instance the current church I go to requires pastors to listen to the tapes of the founder of the church so that the pastors can "correctly" interpret scripture. This is ludicrous. I think that a pastor should have a desire to bring others to the Lord and should rest solely upon his relationship with Jesus for guidance on how to interpret scripture. Unfortunately, the church has gone the way of Cain and has chosen worldly wisdom over the wisdom of God.


It is not the fact that pastors have degrees that is hampering the church. It's the fact that many people in the church worship ignorance over substance. They want to be unfettered in their interpretation of Scripture and education hampers that freedom. The problem with 'resting solely upon his relationship with Jesus' is that many are listening to Satan and calling it the voice of Jesus. In fact, it is the Scriptures that should be interpreting the Scriptures... which one learns to do in seminary or Bible College. I noticed that your curriculum didn't include Greek or Hebrew.

Did God give us the Bible in the King James Version? Or, did he give us the Bible in Greek and Hebrew? Is the King James version innerrant? To say so is to claim that MEN, 1600 years after the birth of Christ were innerrant. To claim so is to miss the beauty and nuances of the original Greek and Hebrew forever. One can love God and NOT be ignorant.



TMeeks -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/30/2008 1:12:34 AM)

The reason why the kind of study that you have identified IS useful is that pastors will run into many, many people with different theological backgrounds. Usually, these people have no idea where their theology has come from or where it leads. By understanding where these doctrines originated and how they affect the total Christian experience, a pastor can be better prepared to move these people to a more productive understanding of Scripture.

Remember, Jesus was God and yet he obviously was prepared to discuss the not only the theological positions of the Scribes, Saducees and Pharasees; but, the ORIGINS of their positions and the ramifications they had on those that adhered to them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pberardi

Yes you make some good points. I can definitely see the value in studying the original languages. However when seminaries focus more upon the different denominations and doctrines that men have formed, they aren't really studying the Bible. At least that is the way that I see it.



rcjames -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/30/2008 9:21:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks
It is not the fact that pastors have degrees that is hampering the church. It's the fact that many people in the church worship ignorance over substance.


Let's not forget that the Church also gets hammered because many are swooned by sheepskins and overlook the spirituality and even the Christian walk of a potential pastor.

There is certainly nothing wrong with a pastor having a degree or two or three, but a dozen degrees does not make him a Pastor. It might help him in the operation of that office, but does not qualify him for it.

A Pastor must be called by God, and have a servant's heart along with the knowledge of the Bible and related issues.

One problem I have seen over the years is that many "Bible Colleges" do not teach Theology (Study of God), but teach something I call theologyology, or the study of the study of God. They seem to be much more concerned about what so and so said than what the Word of God says. Now of course many of them are not that way, but sadly many are.

Thanks
'RC

edited for spelling



Liveloved -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/30/2008 11:39:50 PM)

How much education does a pastor really need?

He needs to be gifted, called and taught by the Holy Spirit. It's a God thing, not a school thing.



bluestone -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/31/2008 9:20:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

How much education does a pastor really need?

He needs to be gifted, called and taught by the Holy Spirit. It's a God thing, not a school thing.



Ignorance begets ignorance. That's why you have nut cases like Todd Bentley down in Florida fleecing people.

Would you let someone who called themselves a surgeon, but never went to medical school operate on you? of course not. Is leading people in spiritual growth and teaching the Word of God not as important?

Education is not the only thing. The person must be a Christian with the gifts and graces of pastoral care being obvious in their life. However, to blow off education as not being important is reckless and dangerous.



RJR_fan -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/31/2008 9:42:28 AM)

quote:

I believe that if God has called you in to the ministry, then God will be the one who will teach you what to say and what to do.


Francis Asbury was a blacksmith's apprentice when he got saved -- but he found ways to learn Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. His journal complains in one spot of how miserable it was to hit the road after staying up half the night studying Hebrew vowel points with his host, a Jewish shopkeeper.

As a rule, a man who loves God's Word enough to preach it should love it enough to read it in the languages God provided it in.



Liveloved -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/31/2008 10:26:47 PM)

quote:

Would you let someone who called themselves a surgeon, but never went to medical school operate on you? of course not. Is leading people in spiritual growth and teaching the Word of God not as important?


Leading people in spiritual growth and teaching the word of God are of far greater importance. But I don't believe 'education' as it is commonly thought of is what qualifies a person to lead and teach. Who did Jesus choose to lead and teach? Those who had advanced degrees? Hardly.

I am not anti education. I have a post graduate degree. But all the education in the world will not make a person a good spiritual leader or teacher. Only the Holy Spirit at work in a life can produce that. And I believe God when He says that the Holy Spirit IS our teacher.

The role of pastor has become a job just like any other. Anyone can get the degree and lead and teach. They don't even have to have the Holy Spirit living inside of them. I'm sorry but that's what we have---men and women leading 'churches' who have a degree, an education, but no life.

Frankly I think that is a far sadder problem then a surgeon without an education.[sm=crystreams.gif]



RJR_fan -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/1/2008 6:04:51 AM)

quote:

The role of pastor has become a job just like any other. Anyone can get the degree and lead and teach.


Not quite true. As a bitter bedpan changer / substitute teacher told me many moons ago, the annual supply of newly-minted preacher boys is approximately double the availability of pulpits. The job market out there is brutal. The "mainline" churches that are most impressed with academic credentials are in a death spiral, losing members and money year after year.

One of the saddest career stories I heard involved a young man who was majoring in computer science at Oral Roberts University, preparing for an honest career that could provide well for his family. An incompetent adviser persuaded him to change his major to "Bible." No Greek. No Hebrew. No job at the end of his "education."

Let's look at some happier stories. My son's pastor took classes at Reformed Theological Seminary (RTS) with an older man who sat quietly towards the back, took copious notes, and wasted no time trying to impress the teachers. The quiet older guy was the president of a new Calvinist/charismatic denomination, responsible for several hundred churches, who knew from his research and global experience how easily things can go wrong for ignorant people.

One of the people he evangelized and mentored in the early 1980s guided a campus Bible study into a full-scale megachurch -- while taking classes part time at RTS. "I'm only a class or two away from getting my degree at 'Reform School,'" he said from the pulpit.

My oldest two kids are Presbyterians today because of Reformed University Fellowship, an erudite ministry staffed with seminary-trained leaders. They found more substance in that group than in the rah-rah charisma-dependent campus ministries of our church.

Charisma can get you started. To have staying power, though, you need to have a disciplined mind. And 1830s-era Methodist Discipline called upon its circuit-riding preachers to spend several hours a day in study.

"Q. Suppose I have no taste for reading?
A. Then either acquire that taste, or find another calling."



Liveloved -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/2/2008 5:31:03 PM)

While I don't disagree with much that you say RJR_fan, 'formal' education is not what qualifies one for pastoral ministry. First and foremost is a vital, living relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Second is a shepherd's heart. I would place knowledge third on the hierarchy. And that knowledge is best when taught by the Holy Spirit Himself. Just as the circuit riders of old, we can set aside both quality and quantity time to spend learning of Him. That does not require an institution of higher learning at all.

Others are always quick to ask for biblical references regarding things. Where is the biblical reference for college education for pastors? Obviously there is not one. Jesus did not call the educated to be disciples and to make disciples. He called the common ordinary man to learn of Him and to lead and teach others of Him.

We've lost the most important thing in all of this---a passion and love for Jesus. That is what we need in leaders and teachers in the church. I've only experienced one such shepherd. Many have not. I have been blessed I know.



RJR_fan -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/2/2008 6:04:37 PM)

quote:

And that knowledge is best when taught by the Holy Spirit Himself.


Strange -- what the Holy Spirit usually "teaches" folks is a rehash of whatever they've already heard or read. True, it's easier to blank out one's mind and await exciting (recycled) impressions and notions than it is to learn Greek and Hebrew.

Unfortunately, ignorance is no protection against heresy. William Branham had an amazing anointing as a healer -- but when he went to teaching, the "got out from under his anointing," and re-invented God. And led millions away from the God of the Bible, and after the figment of his imagination. Pelagius and Arius were famed for the integrity of their character and winsome charisma. Again, they were enemies of Christ and the gospel.

If a man loves God's Word, should he not yearn to read it in the language God gave it in? as Bob Mumford said, "The baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a labor-saving device!"



bzirk -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/2/2008 7:00:08 PM)

I agree with those who have said that the education needed is what meets the requirements of I Timothy 3. How that's done may be by various methods. I don't believe there is one method for accomplishing that benchmark.



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/2/2008 11:38:44 PM)

Here is something I read and think is really good pertaining to this subject.
In the days of John Wesley, lay preachers with limited education would sometimes conduct the church services. One man used Luke 19:21 as his text: "Lord, I feared Thee, because Thou art an austere man" (KJV). Not knowing the word austere, he thought the text spoke of "an oyster man."
He explained how a diver must grope in dark, freezing water to retrieve oysters. In his attempt, he cuts his hands on the sharp edges of the shells. After he obtains an oyster, he rises to the surface, clutching it "in his torn and bleeding hands." The preacher added, "Christ descended from the glory of heaven into . . . sinful human society, in order to retrieve humans and bring them back up with Him to the glory of heaven. His torn and bleeding hands are a sign of the value He has placed on the object of His quest."
Afterward, 12 men received Christ. Later that night someone came to Wesley to complain about unschooled preachers who were too ignorant even to know the meaning of the texts they were preaching on. The Oxford-educated Wesley simply said, "Never mind. The Lord got a dozen oysters tonight."
Our best may not always measure up to the standards of others. But God takes our inadequacies and humble efforts and uses them for His glory. — Cindy Hess Kasper

I think God can use anyone that has a willing heart.(That of course meet the qualifications)



crankius -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/3/2008 12:14:45 AM)

quote:

I think God can use anyone that has a willing heart.


I agree that God can use anyone for His purposes, but to be an elder a man must be biblically qualified according to 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9.

He must be able to hold firmly to the trustworthy message, encourage others by sound doctrine, and refute those who oppose sound doctrine. Clearly a solid understanding of Scripture is needed.



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/3/2008 12:44:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

quote:

I think God can use anyone that has a willing heart.


I agree that God can use anyone for His purposes, but to be an elder a man must be biblically qualified according to 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9.

He must be able to hold firmly to the trustworthy message, encourage others by sound doctrine, and refute those who oppose sound doctrine. Clearly a solid understanding of Scripture is needed.


Oh I totally agree with that. I mean if you meet the qualifications of an elder and have a humble heart he can use you. No matter your education.



crankius -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/3/2008 12:50:45 AM)

[:D] I agree.



BibleL7 -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/3/2008 5:21:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

How much education does a pastor really need?

He needs to be gifted, called and taught by the Holy Spirit. It's a God thing, not a school thing.



Ignorance begets ignorance. That's why you have nut cases like Todd Bentley down in Florida fleecing people.

Would you let someone who called themselves a surgeon, but never went to medical school operate on you? of course not. Is leading people in spiritual growth and teaching the Word of God not as important?

Education is not the only thing. The person must be a Christian with the gifts and graces of pastoral care being obvious in their life. However, to blow off education as not being important is reckless and dangerous.


I could not find any background on Todd Bentley as to education yet it seems he is not so ignorant if he is deceiving many. As to your reference to the surgeon I can only say this;

I received a course through the mail from a man who is a Doctor of Theology and as I read through the matterial I found he was calling Elohim a name for God when it is not a name but is a title for it is a Hebrew word which is also translated as gods and judges elsewhere in the Bible. BTW I sent the books back to him with an explanation. And this is a person who supposedly studied Hewbrew and Greek.

So if you wish to have people educated in college or seminary with doctrine such as this coming from Dr.s I will stick with Pastors who whether educated or not at least know the difference between a name and title. I would go with one who has preached the true word of the Bible and whom I have seen fruit of the Spirit in someone who worked under a pastor for a time and learned from experience in counceling and proclaiming truth.



DaveW -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (6/3/2008 6:17:05 AM)

I have both attended congregations where the pastor was functionally illiterate and where he had multiple doctoral degrees.

I guess it depends on the congregation and what function he has beyond the congregation. I certainly would not have an uneducated person (educated in original languages and well versed in biblical cultures) defining doctrines.



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