Asking for a raise (Full Version)

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spade -> Asking for a raise (6/24/2008 11:34:58 PM)

Have any of you pastors or other vocational ministry leaders ever asked for a raise? Do you have any tips for asking for increased compensation that take into account the spiritual aspects of ministry work?

I'm not a pastor. I work at the headquarters of a ministry. I started in one job, but after some office turmoil, my boss was let go. For unrelated reasons, my boss' assistant later quit. The powers-that-be considered hiring someone to manage our small team and fill the gap left by the assistant. But I made it clear I wanted the responsibility and had the skills to do the management job. I outlined how I thought the team should be structured, with me as the leader, and I got the job and hired a new employee for the team.

The job is a significant increase in responsibility. I have a new title, a new office, a new job description - but the same salary. When I asked for the increased work, I planned to ask for increased pay after proving I could do the work well. I've proven that I can do this well, and my boss, his boss, and all the other key leaders in the ministry are pleased with the work I've done so far. They consistently tell me that my work exceeded their expectations. Meanwhile, I've cut costs in several areas.

Up until I took the promotion, I did work on the side as an independent contractor for other organizations to supplement my salary. That's not a good option any more, because I have to be available to take work home from time-to-time, and I just plain shouldn't have to work a second job to support myself.

All signs point to now being a good time to ask for the raise. But how would you go about asking for a raise in a ministry context? I don't expect to be paid well in comparison to secular jobs, but I do deserve to be paid what others with similar amounts of responsibility in our ministry are paid. How do you do it without sounding like a money-hungry hypocrite?



rcjames -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/25/2008 8:52:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spade
and I just plain shouldn't have to work a second job to support myself.


Interesting attitude, would you please elaborate a little more on why you feel you should not have to do a second job.

Second jobs are not uncommon for ministers or any other sector of society, so I am very interested in your reasonings.

Thsnks
RC



earthless -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/25/2008 8:56:28 AM)

I was going to comment.. but had to edit.



seagullplayer -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/25/2008 10:27:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Second jobs are not uncommon for ministers
RC


Sure true in these parts!



pbaribeault -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/25/2008 10:34:36 AM)

Perhaps the concept is just that 2 smallish jobs fit in one life, but if the ministry job becomes a bigish job, then the other one is no longer possible without elaborate sacrifice.

As for the issue at hand, most things like this are related to an overall budget, and are often addressed at budget time. However, in your situation, there has been a lot of salary related shifting, so they are probably capable of making an adjustment.

Are you working more hours, or just with greater skill and dedication? If it's more hours, that's an easy context to put it into. Otherwise your discussion will probably need to run along the lines of what you wrote to us. Do you know who you might sit down with to discuss this?



rcjames -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/25/2008 3:28:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
Perhaps the concept is just that 2 smallish jobs fit in one life, but if the ministry job becomes a bigish job, then the other one is no longer possible without elaborate sacrifice.


Oh yea, where does it say that a ministry is not an elaborate sacrifice?

Dang, I must have missed it in the job description of serving Jesus.

Thsnks
RC



Consecrated2God -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/25/2008 3:38:04 PM)

quote:

The job is a significant increase in responsibility. I have a new title, a new office, a new job description - but the same salary. When I asked for the increased work, I planned to ask for increased pay after proving I could do the work well. I've proven that I can do this well, and my boss, his boss, and all the other key leaders in the ministry are pleased with the work I've done so far. They consistently tell me that my work exceeded their expectations. Meanwhile, I've cut costs in several areas.


About how long has it been since you got your promotion? I'm thinking that in most jobs, they usually evaluate your performance yearly, but I'm not sure. I don't think there's anything wrong with asking when your job will be evaluated. Maybe they've already got it on the calendar.



pbaribeault -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/25/2008 3:44:38 PM)

I was thinking "elaborate sacrifice" meaning neglect of family responsibilities or wearing oneself so thin as to be useless. I thought we served a God who designed us to honour Him through spending 1/7th of our time resting.



buckifn -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/25/2008 4:27:42 PM)

How long have you been serving in this new position?



evryknee -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/25/2008 6:03:09 PM)

I am the head guy of a small ministry. The Board of Directors looks out for my well-being and makes sure that I get paid what the ministry can afford. If I need more and see that the agency has more, I will just go to the board and say that the ministry has been doing well and I ask for a raise (I get minimum wage, so they know I don't get what I need).



BenQuebec -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/25/2008 6:32:21 PM)

Hi Spade,

I'm not in ministry by profession. I do, however, donate lots of free time as a music director and a deacon at my church. As a deacon, I see lots of requests for expenditures, raises and the like.

As such, my opinion (to take or leave) is to present a request for a raise to your board of directors. State a desired amount, a desired date and a reason. I'd suggest that your reason resemble the following:
"Increased reponsibility, involving increased investment of time and effort. Approximate increase in time and effort is approximately x % per week, and requested salary increase is only x %."



spade -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/26/2008 12:24:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: spade
and I just plain shouldn't have to work a second job to support myself.


Interesting attitude, would you please elaborate a little more on why you feel you should not have to do a second job.

Second jobs are not uncommon for ministers or any other sector of society, so I am very interested in your reasonings.

Thsnks
RC


That's a fair question. I tried to keep the original message short, so I didn't elaborate on that point much.

For starters, I'm not, as I said, a pastor. Please don't think I mean that I should get special treatment because of that. My point is that I'm an employee at a headquarters - it's not a local church or a local ministry I could volunteer with. I absolutely love it and take the ministry of the job very seriously, but it is my job - I get paid to do it, and I go home at the end of the day like Christian lay people who work at secular organizations.

Meanwhile, I am an active volunteer in the ministries of my local church. I help teach Sunday School, lead mid-week services, organize fellowships and outreaches, and generally do whatever I can to serve the body and make Christ known. Last week, I helped every night for three hours with our VBS; this week, I have plans all but one day for ministry through my local church.

I simply can't continue to work harder and longer hours at my employer, spend numerous hours in ministry through my local church, and work a second job to make ends meet. Pastors who work a second job at least get the overlap of their job with their personal service to their local church. I chose to quit doing other work because I want to devote myself more fully to ministry, instead of spending an hour or two a night writing software documentation (seriously!) just to pad my bank account. I know it means some financial sacrifice, but that's fine.

You are right that most ministers struggle financially, and I'm sensitive to that - I see it every day. However, I believe I clearly deserve a raise, based on the compensation structure of my employer, my new responsibilities, and my success. My question is how I might best broach that topic in a way that is appropriate assertive for the workplace, but appropriately humble and sacrificial as a Christian.



spade -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/26/2008 12:39:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault

As for the issue at hand, most things like this are related to an overall budget, and are often addressed at budget time. However, in your situation, there has been a lot of salary related shifting, so they are probably capable of making an adjustment.

Are you working more hours, or just with greater skill and dedication? If it's more hours, that's an easy context to put it into. Otherwise your discussion will probably need to run along the lines of what you wrote to us. Do you know who you might sit down with to discuss this?


I am working more hours, at least on occasion to meet deadlines. I always worked to the best of my ability, but I had a controlling and lazy boss who actively limited my projects and contributions. I had a fairly heavy workload then, but it is significantly more now. I also have to work with greater skill, in a broader area of expertise, in cooperation with a higher level of employee, stick my neck out on the line on tough issues, and manage two employees.

I would have the conversation with my boss, who is upper-middle management. The salary increase might be able to happen with just his and HR's approval, but it might have to be approved by our board, too. That would depend on the amount of money and whether they reclassify my job to reflect the new responsibilities.



spade -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/26/2008 12:45:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

quote:

The job is a significant increase in responsibility. I have a new title, a new office, a new job description - but the same salary. When I asked for the increased work, I planned to ask for increased pay after proving I could do the work well. I've proven that I can do this well, and my boss, his boss, and all the other key leaders in the ministry are pleased with the work I've done so far. They consistently tell me that my work exceeded their expectations. Meanwhile, I've cut costs in several areas.


About how long has it been since you got your promotion? I'm thinking that in most jobs, they usually evaluate your performance yearly, but I'm not sure. I don't think there's anything wrong with asking when your job will be evaluated. Maybe they've already got it on the calendar.


Officially, it's been about 6 weeks. However, my old boss left 4 months ago, and I began assuming the responsibilities for the job then.

Supposedly, we have annual reviews, although I didn't have one last year. If I get one this year, it would probably be in about three months.

However, all the employees are currently having their job descriptions evaluated and revised. They aren't performance reviews, but they are some type of analysis to determine if descriptions are accurate and "lawsuit-proof". My review is later this week, and I plan on indicating areas where my description doesn't reflect the extent of my responsibilities. I'm considering bringing my salary up at that time as well.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/26/2008 7:52:10 AM)

quote:

However, all the employees are currently having their job descriptions evaluated and revised. They aren't performance reviews, but they are some type of analysis to determine if descriptions are accurate and "lawsuit-proof". My review is later this week, and I plan on indicating areas where my description doesn't reflect the extent of my responsibilities. I'm considering bringing my salary up at that time as well.


That sounds reasonable to me. I think your heart is in the right place, and that you've been given a lot of good advice. Let us know how it goes. [:)]



earthless -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/26/2008 12:35:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault

I was thinking "elaborate sacrifice" meaning neglect of family responsibilities or wearing oneself so thin as to be useless.


Then maybe you need to cut down on ministry time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault

I thought we served a God who designed us to honour Him through spending 1/7th of our time resting.


Really? I work 75-80 hours a week (five day work week) and then do ministry work on the weekend and during the week for free.

The only reason I bring this up is because this is a ministers only type sub-forum. Otherwise I would not bring it up because it comes off as chest thumping and bragging, letting the right hand know what the left does.. never a good thing, but needed in this context.

Even when I was an associate pastor for ten years - I have always maintained a "secular" job to sustain my family - so that all ministry work - be it from preaching a sermon on Sunday morning to helping scrub a church toilet - is done for free - never for any money.

Never preaching somewhere wondering how much $$$ the church was going to give me after the service. God forbid!

But maybe that's just me....



rcjames -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/26/2008 12:59:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spade
I believe I clearly deserve a raise, based on the compensation structure of my employer, my new responsibilities, and my success.


If you truely feel this way this ask for the raise, but don't be suprised at not getting it or being let go for asking.

Also do not let your other "Ministry" efforts cause you to expect a raise at your current position you are at at the "Headquarters".

I am sure the "Headquarters" has a pay scale basis that is on performance, senoirity, etc. of work at that place.

Thanks
RC



hjemerson -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/30/2008 1:38:06 PM)

As all/most have said I would look at the rate other in the same or abut the same are getting paided . Pray and then with the fact as you have stated here go ask with apostive sprite . Again what you do in your home church dose not really have any thing to do with this job as in any secular job when it come to money most headquater will run as a busness. Have a fair amount in your mind but also have amount you will to settle for, I worked at a job for 11 years with out a raise and should have asked other told me but I knew the answer would be" sorry I can give it to you and if you can get more some else it has been nice working with you' As I said it took me t 11 year to find another job I felted i would enjoy as much with more omey! God Blees but be preapared for a driffernt out come.



gmedifast -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/30/2008 7:10:01 PM)

quote:

Interesting attitude, would you please elaborate a little more on why you feel you should not have to do a second job.

Second jobs are not uncommon for ministers or any other sector of society, so I am very interested in your reasonings.

Thsnks
RC


Well this is a sore spot in my life. Before someone jumps on me I work a full time secular job and I work a more than part time job at my church meaning I put in an additional 20-30 hours depending on what is happening. I know that what I do at the church is as unto the Lord and is done to build the Kingdom of God.

However, churches pick and choose what they can and cannot pay. We invite evanglist and special speakers to the church and think nothing writing them out a $500.00 check while you have poeple who volunteer in key positions at church and they never do anything to bless you and encourage you along the way.

Matthew 10:9-11 (New Living Translation)
9 “Don’t take any money in your money belts—no gold, silver, or even copper coins. 10 Don’t carry a traveler’s bag with a change of clothes and sandals or even a walking stick. Don’t hesitate to accept hospitality, because those who work deserve to be fed.

I have been at my current church for many years I have held a multitude of positions. I have never been paid even a small check. A few weeks ago, we had a person who came on staff and I found out that they were going to pay that person, they had filled out the legal forms to be a paid staff person. To me my pastor showed me a big disrespect as well as other people who work on the staff at the church. We not only give of our time, efforts and labor, but we have to supply a lot of expenses out of our pocket from construction paper to food and refreshements. If they can pay one staff person, they can pay all of us.

Yes, we do what we do to minister, but no were does the Bible say that you have to be disrespected by your own church and minister in this manner.



rcjames -> RE: Asking for a raise (6/30/2008 8:29:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmedifast
I have been at my current church for many years I have held a multitude of positions. I have never been paid even a small check. A few weeks ago, we had a person who came on staff and I found out that they were going to pay that person, they had filled out the legal forms to be a paid staff person. To me my pastor showed me a big disrespect as well as other people who work on the staff at the church. We not only give of our time, efforts and labor, but we have to supply a lot of expenses out of our pocket from construction paper to food and refreshements. If they can pay one staff person, they can pay all of us.

Yes, we do what we do to minister, but no were does the Bible say that you have to be disrespected by your own church and minister in this manner.


I hope you do not think me crass, but the leadership will pay whom they think will bring the best to the ministry, and if this doesn't suit you, then pick up your toys and go some where else.

You attitude seems to be lacking in the servitude area, and maybe the leadership senses this as well

Spend some time in prayer about what God really wants for you, and spend some time in Scripture about serving God and the benefits or lack thereof from that servitude.

Just a thought.

Thsnks
RC



Consecrated2God -> RE: Asking for a raise (7/1/2008 11:54:01 AM)

quote:

If they can pay one staff person, they can pay all of us.


That's not usually true. Most of the time, in my experience, people are only paid in churches for things that either (a) require a substantial time commitment or (b) they can't find anyone to volunteer to do. In our church, even though it's a small church, they wanted a full time pastor who could devote all of his time to ministry, and didn't have to divide his time trying to support his family. Our church also pays someone to clean the church. Everything else is done by volunteers. Our church couldn't afford to pay everyone who works in our church.

I would imagine that if stepped down from the activities in your church, they would probably be able to find someone to volunteer their time to take your place. If they couldn't find anyone, they'd either hire someone to do it, or decide it wasn't important enough to do in the first place. But since you are already doing it as a volunteer, they have no reason to pay you.



hjemerson -> RE: Asking for a raise (7/1/2008 2:02:16 PM)

I truely understand from both side for 15 years we serviced as vol worker youth/children /music ( if needed to be done we did it and worked two FT reg. jobs at the same time)and love it and had so much JOY after Husband gave his life to full time sevice in which we move 1,000 mile returned to school Bible College to get a dregee in youth/music ,With the hope being FT in a church and doing what we had been doing and finding the JOY again! Well after two year it not their! Why? I feel and Know we folloewd the Lord will ,but I do not understand why we can find the place we can do what in are heart we know is what the Lord wants . SO for now we PT with a small pay Do church music. We Have to work a secular job to keep the main bills paied We have very little and Do trust the Lords to show us where to find the JOy again. so many great leaders have to leave the church and compread with the world. I really feel the Church are losing out on some great leader by not supporting them in a realizes way. (exp we pay for water/power etc to run the church build I have alway belived the church(people ) should care for the person that is clled by the Lord to care for them the same as we care for the building) Just my thoughts!



GroupW -> RE: Asking for a raise (7/1/2008 2:17:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spade

How do you do it without sounding like a money-hungry hypocrite?


To me, the best times to ask for a raise are before you take the job (ok, too late for that one), and at your regularly scheduled review. You're kind of stuck between the two at the moment. 6 weeks might be a tad early to actually ask, but it's not to early to start assembling data. The 6 month point might be a bit more appropriate - people by then have had the chance to see you perform over time.

Lay out all the data ahead of time - what's the increase in your hrs worked, what's the income lost due to leaving the second job, plus all the other reasons you can think of & have listed here.

The more hard data you can provide (hrs worked, people managed, deadlines met, etc) the better off you are. Other than that:

Ask humbly,
Be prepared to hear "no",
Be well prepared for the discussion,
Practice the discussion on someone outside the organization before you go.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Asking for a raise (7/1/2008 3:58:25 PM)

quote:

Most of the time, in my experience, people are only paid in churches for things that either (a) require a substantial time commitment or (b) they can't find anyone to volunteer to do.


I just had to come back and add a third scenario as an afterthought. Another reason people in churches get paid is when the church desires and can afford a professional in an area where a volunteer might not do as good of a job.



gmedifast -> RE: Asking for a raise (7/1/2008 9:26:17 PM)

quote:


You attitude seems to be lacking in the servitude area, and maybe the leadership senses this as well


That my friend is where you are incorrect about me. I have been in this church for several years. I have stayed becasue I have sought God and He has determined that I not leave. However as far as serventhood goes, I have been a part of just about every ministry we have accept the nursery. I regularly clean toilets, run the vacuum, take out trash. I have seen after the sick, shut in, coordinated a host of events and ministries. I have done any and everything that has been asked of me and there are times I have done things that no one knows about. I often show up to assist with clean days even when the majority of the church are absent. I live and die by the fact that I do not let the right hand know what the left hand is doing. There is one other person in our church that gives of herself equally as much and we have never asked for payment, we are always told that the church is too broke to pay staff. The pastor often preaches on increasing our giving. The only reason that I know this one person was going to be paid is because he was brought in without the church voting on it and then it did not work out abruptly and that is when I found out that he was in line to be put on salary.

I have been as faithful as I possibly humanily can, and you know it is not about the money but it is about a degree of respect. Also, if I was on salary it would be the church who would benefit because I know that it would be used to re-invest in the minsitry to buy items that we need.



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