Is your church a copyright church? (Full Version)

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BarryBum -> Is your church a copyright church? (6/29/2008 4:36:35 PM)

Whats up with this new copyright stuff that churches are facing these days? Our church leaders are telling us guys in media department that we can't do anything anymore as far as copying and pasteing words to music to use on powerpoint without uncluding some kind of CCL license number and including all the copyright info after every song. For example, if you want to use a song that you hear on the radio.....such as Chris Tomlins new version of amazing grace, they are telling us that we can't type the words and use them for the congreation to sing as someone plays the guitar because the song is copyrighted. They are also telling us that we can't even play music that we have stored on our computer any longer because we copyed the music from a CD to our harddrive. And it doesn't stop there. Movies and youtube video clips are also off limits due to some copyright infringements. I know as Christians we are commanded to live by the laws, but isn't this taking church to a commercialized point?



zoebob -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/29/2008 4:49:29 PM)

Well, our church has a CCl license. We print the words with music (when allowed) in our bulletin every week. Inside the back cover is the disclaimer that all words are printed under permission of our CCL license with the number listed. I don't feel like digging out my state of the church report with the budget but I don't think it was too expensive. Of course, we have a lawyer as one of our elders and I don't think he's going to let us do anything illegal.



BarryBum -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/29/2008 4:54:51 PM)

I understand that church size has nothing to do with this, but I think its ashamed for a church of maybe 65 on a good Sunday morning, to have do go through all this.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/29/2008 4:55:37 PM)

these aren't new copyright rules, just new to you. even the bible has copyrights. funny eh?

the writers, performers, producers etc work to produce music and they are worthy of their wages. copyrights help protect the workman's wages.



rcjames -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/29/2008 4:58:29 PM)

Nothing new, just follow the simple rules, pay the small fee and walla you are legal; and not setting a bad example for all the music downloaders in the congregation.

Thsnks
RC



zoebob -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/29/2008 5:00:19 PM)

HERE is a link to the fees schedule. For a church of 65 people the annual fee would be $101. For the largest church: over 200,000 people the annual fee is $4260



Hismusicgal -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/29/2008 5:40:54 PM)

Hello Barry.

I am in charge of the music and getting the words on the screens at our church (and do have a CCLI#) your post promted me to look at the CCLI website which is simple to find at www.ccli.com . Noone told me what all it covered so thank you for this question it is making me look into it further for the congregation.

I know by reading and watching a few things on this site there are a few things we need to change at the church I attend and volunteer.

If you wish to talk further fell free to PM me.

Either way we need to keep circulating His music. [sm=note.gif]

[sm=icon_smile_sing.gif][sm=angel.gif]

No matter what I still sing for Him!!!



slushie -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/29/2008 7:18:43 PM)

Yeah.... our church has a CCLI license as well. I didn't really think about it before, until my brother started freaking out, "Oh we gotta have a ccli license! We gotta have one!" and I happened to be in the pastor's office and saw the license on the desk.

We have the CCLI number in the song sheets we print out.

Just get the license, I would say.



BenQuebec -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/29/2008 7:20:33 PM)

My wife and I are music directors at our church, and we ensured that our church got a CCLI license. No matter what our opinions are re: copyright laws, they're still laws that we need to abide by.

CAUTION: OPINION FOLLOWS. My opinion is that when God's word says that a minister is worth his salary, I believe that applies to anyone who actively works to spread God's work, even via music. That is, I believe that people who write Christian music should get a just salary as well, and CCLI is an organization that helps ensure that these musicians and artists get their just salary, based on usage of the music they write.

EDITED TO ADD: What some see as commercialism, others see as laws ensuring that artists actually get paid for the contributions they make to society. Some of these artists make their living making such contributions, and these copyright fees are their paycheck.

For the record, our church has also recently procured a license to show copyrighted videos and movies, as well. Even if you have purchased a video, it's illegal to show it publicly. Puchased videos are only for private viewing. Yeah, it's another issue, but related.



Jenny-Fair -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/29/2008 10:03:25 PM)

I have never been a participant in a church that did NOT have a CCL license....why would you want to steal from another Christian (or anyone, for that matter?)



pstrdebi -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/30/2008 12:59:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair

I have never been a participant in a church that did NOT have a CCL license....why would you want to steal from another Christian (or anyone, for that matter?)


"Stealing" is a harsh word... I do not believe that is the OP's intention. It just seems like a lot of legal mumbo jumbo that the church shouldn't have to do... but we do.

It was never a big thing before.... I'm talkin'... back in the day. Anyone remember the clunky overhead projectors and the slide sheets? You had to have someone sitting beside the projector switching out the slides by hand every few minutes. (Yes... you young thangs out there... back when your mama's road dinasaurs to church!)

We never needed copyright lic. then... but now, we need to abide by the "laws of the land." It's all good... CCLI has a lot of good stuff on their web-site... check it out.

When I put PPT together or our DVD's, I usually put the info on the first slide of the song... like you would see on TV music videos... ie:

"Wire"
Third Day
Album: Wire
Used by permission CCLI Lic. #XXXXXXX

It actually gives it a proffessional look! [;)]

Smile BarryBum... It ain't nothin' but a thang! [:D]



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/30/2008 1:49:13 AM)

actually the ccli started up in the 80's and was inspired by the free copying and use of overhead projectors etc when worship songs and choruses began to be used instead of hymnals only songs.



Jenny-Fair -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/30/2008 9:09:34 AM)

It IS stealing, legally-speaking. Your CCLI license fees are used to pay the royalties. In addition to adding the info to the slide, each church lets CCLI know which songs they used and how many times, and CCLI uses that info to pay the royalties, which the songwriters are entitled to by law. Hence, if someone uses the music without using the system, they are stealing from the writer or other entity holding the rights.

Saying that the public should have to do that with secular music (which they do) but that we should not because we are Christians, is not only saying that it's ok for Christians to steal, but is also saying that Christian songwriters should not be properly paid for their work...because they are Christians. And that is very wrong-headed.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/30/2008 1:43:16 PM)

As all who have CCLI license know, they require us to submit a log of our usage every so many years. I was pleasantly surprised when I got a call from them this last time, making sure that we really did use the songs we told them! They are very careful, because they do, indeed, pay those who should be paid.



bzirk -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/30/2008 2:03:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarryBum

I understand that church size has nothing to do with this, but I think its ashamed for a church of maybe 65 on a good Sunday morning, to have do go through all this.


It's completely fair, and I bet you would feel that way too if you made your living writing music. That's how Chris Tomlinson makes his living or should he just work for nothing?

I don't mean the next statement to sound harsh but merely to point out a fact -- it is essentially stealing not to pay for the licensing, and frankly, those licenses are cheap. I am also in a small church, and we just don't pay that much in order to have access to a lot of great music.

Hope that helps.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/30/2008 7:30:15 PM)

Nothing against you, Barry, but I always find attitudes toward the arts used within the congregation to be interesting.

Most congregations have musicians (of varying sorts, to varying degrees) and other artists (of varying sorts, to varying degrees), then there is everyone else (those who don't realize they are gifted, those who have not polished their gifts, etc.).

Some are highly gifted in construction, singing, brick-laying, teaching, writing music, painting exteriors of buildings, hospitality, cleaning, writing poetry, creating art pieces of all kinds, dancing, cooking, leadership, etc. But of all these, the ones that the congregations expect to work for nothing are mainly the musicians.

Those who write the music are told, "But it's for G-d! You should give those talents to Him and not expect anything back!" But no one would think to say that to the brick-layer, the beautician, the grocer. Of those who make music CDs, they will copy the music and never pay for them. Why? "But it's for G-d! You should give those talents to Him and not expect anything back!" They don't do that to the plumber or the zookeeper.

G-d gave each one talents, and those talents are for supporting ourselves and for giving of ourselves to Him. When you benefit from their services, pay the asked-for price! I know about the cliche of "starving artists," but G-d's artists -- none of them -- should be expected to live on a starvation diet, unless we all are for some reason. They have lives, too!



Jenny-Fair -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/30/2008 7:35:16 PM)

quote:

Those who write the music are told, "But it's for G-d! You should give those talents to Him and not expect anything back!" But no one would think to say that to the brick-layer, the beautician, the grocer. Of those who make music CDs, they will copy the music and never pay for them. Why? "But it's for G-d! You should give those talents to Him and not expect anything back!" They don't do that to the plumber or the zookeeper.

Isn't that the truth!



Roberta_ -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/30/2008 8:20:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair

quote:

Those who write the music are told, "But it's for G-d! You should give those talents to Him and not expect anything back!" But no one would think to say that to the brick-layer, the beautician, the grocer. Of those who make music CDs, they will copy the music and never pay for them. Why? "But it's for G-d! You should give those talents to Him and not expect anything back!" They don't do that to the plumber or the zookeeper.

Isn't that the truth!



Excellent point Covaan!!



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/30/2008 9:37:49 PM)

You are both sweet, but that is what happens. Even when a place of worship is built, the overseer will invite those most talented in construction to give of their time for that one project, but the overseer would not think of demanding those who volunteer to also give the materials. If they are wealthy enough to suggest it themselves, then the place of worship will gladly accept the gift. Even then, the overseer knows that the workers still have themselves and/or families to support, so concessions for these things are common and expected.

But the musician is too often expected to give it all: talents, time (which is often a very long time!), materials -- everything. But the musician's talents, while they may be more showy than the plumber's talents, are just as important in the service of G-d as the plumber's talents, yet one would not think of calling Roto Rooter to the church at 2:36 a.m., to fix the overflowing toilet and repair the floor drain for nothing!

It is a shame that believers think nothing of stealing musicians' life-work for a few moments of pleasure -- in the name of G-d!



Jenny-Fair -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (6/30/2008 10:17:41 PM)

In addition, it is a totally different thing for me to volunteer a few hours a week on the worship team (or in any other ministry) at my home church as an act of service than it is for our church to forcibly take someone else's talent that we may not even know, and that is their paying work as well.



bzirk -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (7/1/2008 12:21:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

You are both sweet, but that is what happens. Even when a place of worship is built, the overseer will invite those most talented in construction to give of their time for that one project, but the overseer would not think of demanding those who volunteer to also give the materials. If they are wealthy enough to suggest it themselves, then the place of worship will gladly accept the gift. Even then, the overseer knows that the workers still have themselves and/or families to support, so concessions for these things are common and expected.

But the musician is too often expected to give it all: talents, time (which is often a very long time!), materials -- everything. But the musician's talents, while they may be more showy than the plumber's talents, are just as important in the service of G-d as the plumber's talents, yet one would not think of calling Roto Rooter to the church at 2:36 a.m., to fix the overflowing toilet and repair the floor drain for nothing!

It is a shame that believers think nothing of stealing musicians' life-work for a few moments of pleasure -- in the name of G-d!


Very well put. Great post.



BibleL7 -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (7/1/2008 4:59:23 AM)

well there is one other option where you do not need to pay a license fee each year and yes it is legal that is to use Hymnals that you purchase for the entire church and only sing from them. the cost of the hymnals is considered paying the royalties



bzirk -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (7/1/2008 10:41:51 AM)

Not to mention the many songs in the public domain.



youthrev -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (7/2/2008 10:23:42 AM)

Just get the CCLI for the music and be done with it. Renew it each year, keep yourself legal and present a good witness. If you want to do all original songs, that's another option. Any recitation of a source in a paper, quoting someone in a sermon, or whatever, all requires the same, at minimum, courtesy. But it is legal, so just go ahead and budget for it.

Regarding videos, you actually need a separate license for that. It's called a CVLI and it enables you to legally show lots of movies and/or clips from many major studios. It's only a little more than a CCLI. But look into it.

I know you may just be ranting about commercialism in the church, and I get that. But still...



DaveW -> RE: Is your church a copyright church? (7/2/2008 1:19:48 PM)

I changed areas and churches in 1987 and the existing worship leader was vehemently opposed to getting a CCLI licence on the general principle of the thing. She thought it improper to pay for ANYTHING faith related. She even wanted all P&W CDs available for free. When she left I convinced the board that we needed to do this and I maintained it for the rest of the time we were there. It is not that much work (more so then than now) and not so expensive.



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