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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 7:36:37 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Sorry but explanations aren't facts
Didn't say they were. But they are based on facts and good ones help us find more facts.
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So you haven't yet understood the difference between accepted theories and proven theories.
Essentialsaltes gave you the correct answer. In science no theory is proven. So I don't have to understand a difference that does not exist. You need to learn science before you criticise it.
btw, you can't say this:
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Since the whole goal of science is to disprove the bible ...
and also claim this:
quote:
I do have a problem with lies that are made up ...
for the first statement is an example of just such a made up lie.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 8:08:18 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Sorry but explanations aren't facts
Didn't say they were. But they are based on facts and good ones help us find more facts.
quote:
So you haven't yet understood the difference between accepted theories and proven theories.
Essentialsaltes gave you the correct answer. In science no theory is proven. So I don't have to understand a difference that does not exist. You need to learn science before you criticise it.
btw, you can't say this:
quote:
Since the whole goal of science is to disprove the bible ...
and also claim this:
quote:
I do have a problem with lies that are made up ...
for the first statement is an example of just such a made up lie.
You're right; no theory is proven. Since evolution is still called a theory, that mean that it hasn't been proven which also means that it's not based on facts, but imaginary scenarios, which you yourself admit. 
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 8:17:27 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Sorry but explanations aren't facts
Didn't say they were. But they are based on facts and good ones help us find more facts.
quote:
So you haven't yet understood the difference between accepted theories and proven theories.
Essentialsaltes gave you the correct answer. In science no theory is proven. So I don't have to understand a difference that does not exist. You need to learn science before you criticise it.
btw, you can't say this:
quote:
Since the whole goal of science is to disprove the bible ...
and also claim this:
quote:
I do have a problem with lies that are made up ...
for the first statement is an example of just such a made up lie.
Prove it by telling us who the common ancestor was. Otherwise, it's you who's in the business of making up stories.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 8:24:43 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
YEC only 'withstands' the scientific evidence by discarding not just the results of biology, but astronomy, physics, and geology.
If this is the lie that you choose to tell yourself, be my guest!
quote:
All out war on education and science
This already happens in the biology classes in public schools all over our nation. It's an all-out war on science that does not agree with evolution. FUN.....but in the end, I know the One who will win.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 9:51:23 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
Didn't say they [explanations/theories] were. But they are based on facts and good ones help us find more facts.
You're right; no theory is proven. Since evolution is still called a theory, that mean that it hasn't been proven which also means that it's not based on facts, but imaginary scenarios, which you yourself admit.
Please reread my statement, especially the underlined part.
No scientific theory is proven. All scientific theories are based on facts. Good scientific theories predict new observations of facts. If you can't get your head around that, you don't have a clue about how science is done.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/5/2008 10:17:50 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
You mean like the "facts" that bleeding people cures diseases. Or how about the science of phrenology that claims that brain size determines intelligence.  Sorry friend, but all scientists think they have the truth..until the next century when they're proven wrong. And that's why the most common phrase we hear from scientists is; "we now know that what we once thought was true is not true." But those who worship scientists as gods don't question the theories of scientists. They simply blindly believe whatever scientists say. Then they look foolish when scientists change their minds again, which they always do.
No, I mean observed facts, not pre-scientific conceptions which were not based on careful and verified observation. Yes, the discovery of new evidence will often lead to a revision of theories, but as you and I agree, theories are not facts. They are only based on facts.
I suppose you could say that the role of blood-letting in controlling disease was a pre-scientific theory, but since it was not arrived at by scientific methods of controlled testing, it never qualified as a scientific theory.
Note that although new evidence can (and ought to) lead to better theories, new facts don't displace old facts. The astronomical observations once explained by the Ptolomaic cosmology are still just as valid as observations now that they are explained by modern cosmology. The explanation has changed. The facts have not.
This is a distinction you have to be able to make in order to understand science.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/6/2008 10:02:29 AM
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Carico
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
You mean like the "facts" that bleeding people cures diseases. Or how about the science of phrenology that claims that brain size determines intelligence. Sorry friend, but all scientists think they have the truth..until the next century when they're proven wrong. And that's why the most common phrase we hear from scientists is; "we now know that what we once thought was true is not true." But those who worship scientists as gods don't question the theories of scientists. They simply blindly believe whatever scientists say. Then they look foolish when scientists change their minds again, which they always do.
No, I mean observed facts, not pre-scientific conceptions which were not based on careful and verified observation. Yes, the discovery of new evidence will often lead to a revision of theories, but as you and I agree, theories are not facts. They are only based on facts.
I suppose you could say that the role of blood-letting in controlling disease was a pre-scientific theory, but since it was not arrived at by scientific methods of controlled testing, it never qualified as a scientific theory.
Note that although new evidence can (and ought to) lead to better theories, new facts don't displace old facts. The astronomical observations once explained by the Ptolomaic cosmology are still just as valid as observations now that they are explained by modern cosmology. The explanation has changed. The facts have not.
This is a distinction you have to be able to make in order to understand science.
Sorry but blood-letting was considered a fact in the 19th century because scientists based their findings on the info they had at the time. And it's the same with every century until they find out new information in the next century that proves them wrong. And that's why it's dangerous to claim that theories are facts because they're based on the narrow reasoning and information at the time. So putting one's faith in science is as foolish as putting one's faith in shifting sand.
And this is how God says he will make human reasoning foolish. Men claim they have the answers then look foolish and humiliated when they find out they were wrong, especially when they were arrogant enough to claim they know better than God does. They deceive the public by their arrogance.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/6/2008 3:05:59 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Sorry but blood-letting was considered a fact in the 19th century because scientists based their findings on the info they had at the time.
No, it was not based on findings and info. It was based on the pre-scientific concept that disease is due to an imbalance of bodily humours and the hypothesis that blood-letting helped to restore health by restoring the proper balance of bodily humours.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/6/2008 10:03:49 PM
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Godhead
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Obviously science has mad some great improvements in medicine but that is based on a better knowledge of the human body, that has nothing to do with knowledge based on atheistic views. Scientist and evolutionist are people who are trying to understand the world without God in the equation. Hypothetically speaking, if God did create the world and as it states in genesis Chapter one, then to leave God out of the equation will only lead to a false conclusion. Remember scientist are only coming to conclusions on the basis that there is no God. Therefore every conclusion on that basis can only be wrong. Since evolution is just a theory that had come to light on the basis that there is no God, Christians who believe in evolution holds more weight to mans imagination above the inspired scriptures. They also do not know God or His power. I do not need any proofs whatsoever of a young earth, I know that God made the heavens and the earth and all that they contain. The complexity of life, and the harmony of all things so that this life may continue is proof enough for me that there can only be a creator and God, who is above all things and rules over all things. The Earth just so happens to revolve around a Star that gives light and energy on the Earth. The earth just so happens to spin so that we have night and day. The orbits just so happen to determined, our minutes, hours, days, months and years. Not to mention the seasons and tides that lead to pollination and propagation in its right time. All life from the smallest to the greatest works in harmony to produce an ecosystem that supports us. Man being the head of all life on this planet. All these things prove to me what the scriptures say, “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” (Rom 1:19-20) That no man has an excuse to deny the obvious proofs of an intelligent designer far greater and above us other then that his heart is evil and refuses to come to the light lest his deeds are exposed. They that want to bury the truth with lies, only do so that their evil deeds may remain hidden. (John 3:20)
quote:
ORIGINAL: World book encyclopedia 2006
Age of Earth. Scientists think that Earth probably formed at about the same time as the rest of the solar system. They have determined that some chondrite meteorites, the unaltered remains from the formation of the solar system, are up to 4.6 billion years old. Scientists believe that Earth and other planets are probably that old. They can determine the ages of rocks by measuring the amounts of natural radioactive materials, such as uranium, in them. Radioactive elements decay (change into other elements) at a known rate. For example, uranium gives off radiation and decays into lead. Scientists know the time it takes for uranium to change to lead. They can determine the age of a rock by comparing the amount of uranium to the amount of lead.
Radiometric dating does not reveal the aged of anything, all it does is show how much uranium and lead is in the rock. That’s the only thing they can be certain of. There is no way that they can know how much there was originally in the rock and so determining and age of the rock is impossible. So in truth, it is their view that God does not exist that truly determines how old the rock is and not the amount of uranium and lead. They only go by the view that there is no God and that the earth then must be old. Look at the wording, “Scientists think that Earth probably formed.” And, “Believe that Earth and other planets are probably that old.” It is their belief against ours, their word against God’s word.
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/6/2008 10:37:23 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Scientist and evolutionist are people who are trying to understand the world without God in the equation.
This is not true. You have been told before that this is not true. You have been told before than many scientists are Christians. You have been told before that many Christians accept evolution.
Why do you persist in trying to spread this lie?
The whole of your case depends on this lie.
Remove it, as you should, if you respect the truth, and you have no case.
Are you so committed to your case that you don't mind it is a pack of lies?
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 1:41:05 AM
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swan42
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quote:
Since the whole goal of science is to disprove the bible (especially since they don't consider anything in the bible scientific, even the fact that when human flesh and bones decay, they decay into dust), then scientists are not objective
The goal of science is to learn the truth about the natural world
and science mostly ignores God and the Bible.
As soon as evidence of a super-natural world becomes available,
then perhaps science will study Jesus, Buddha, Zeus, or Thor
in enough detail to bother proving or disproving the Bible.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 11:32:33 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
As soon as evidence of a super-natural world becomes available, then perhaps science will study Jesus, Buddha, Zeus, or Thor in enough detail to bother proving or disproving the Bible.
This is the typical line every Atheist throws out, but it has its pitfalls, because it is an oxymoronic statement.
Definition of supernatural: "Not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material"
Supernatural literally means beyond the natural, physical, material world. Science studies only this natural, physical, material world that we live in and nothing more. So, how will science EVER witness or prove a supernatural event? Fact is, they won't. Science is so blinded and limited by what they are capable of studying and understanding that if Jesus Christ came back today and raised my grandma from the dead, science would try to explain it SCIENTIFICALLY, and would go to great lengths to explain that event w/o even considering the supernatural. I think it is a safe bet to assume science will NEVER accept supernatural events as being only that - supernatural.
So swan42, in reality, there is nothing that will ever prove to you that God exists, because you have let your own finite, humanistic knowledge (namely science) control you, when you should let something MUCH more powerful and intellectual have that privilege.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 12:05:27 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1083
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
As soon as evidence of a super-natural world becomes available, then perhaps science will study Jesus, Buddha, Zeus, or Thor in enough detail to bother proving or disproving the Bible.
This is the typical line every Atheist throws out, but it has its pitfalls, because it is an oxymoronic statement.
Definition of supernatural: "Not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material"
Supernatural literally means beyond the natural, physical, material world. Science studies only this natural, physical, material world that we live in and nothing more. So, how will science EVER witness or prove a supernatural event? Fact is, they won't. Science is so blinded and limited by what they are capable of studying and understanding that if Jesus Christ came back today and raised my grandma from the dead, science would try to explain it SCIENTIFICALLY, and would go to great lengths to explain that event w/o even considering the supernatural. I think it is a safe bet to assume science will NEVER accept supernatural events as being only that - supernatural.
So swan42, in reality, there is nothing that will ever prove to you that God exists, because you have let your own finite, humanistic knowledge (namely science) control you, when you should let something MUCH more powerful and intellectual have that privilege.
If a supernatural force can influence the material world, then its effects can be measured and studied, in principle.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 12:46:23 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
As soon as evidence of a super-natural world becomes available, then perhaps science will study Jesus, Buddha, Zeus, or Thor in enough detail to bother proving or disproving the Bible.
This is the typical line every Atheist throws out, but it has its pitfalls, because it is an oxymoronic statement.
Definition of supernatural: "Not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material"
Supernatural literally means beyond the natural, physical, material world. Science studies only this natural, physical, material world that we live in and nothing more. So, how will science EVER witness or prove a supernatural event? Fact is, they won't. Science is so blinded and limited by what they are capable of studying and understanding that if Jesus Christ came back today and raised my grandma from the dead, science would try to explain it SCIENTIFICALLY, and would go to great lengths to explain that event w/o even considering the supernatural. I think it is a safe bet to assume science will NEVER accept supernatural events as being only that - supernatural.
So swan42, in reality, there is nothing that will ever prove to you that God exists, because you have let your own finite, humanistic knowledge (namely science) control you, when you should let something MUCH more powerful and intellectual have that privilege.
If a supernatural force can influence the material world, then its effects can be measured and studied, in principle.
It is studied everyday! The way molecules interact, the way electrons, protons, neutrons which all respond in an ordered way are studied every single day. The wind is measured every single day but no one who doesn't know God, knows why it exists or how it came into being. The effects of God's existence, they're evident all over the creation. The only thing that atheists don't do is acknowledge that God created the ordered design of the universe even though they study His design every single day. Instead, they make up an animal of their imaginations who's as fictitious as Zeus that they call the "common ancestor' as the author of life.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 12:51:06 PM
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swan42
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quote:
So swan42, in reality, there is nothing that will ever prove to you that God exists, because you have let your own finite, humanistic knowledge (namely science) control you, when you should let something MUCH more powerful and intellectual have that privilege.
Odd, I never said I, me or even hinted about what I thought. I was speaking about the goals and methods of science. In any case, there could and is proof that God exists to me, but it doesn't come from science. That fact remains, science does not go about attempting to disprove the Bible.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 2:50:56 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
If a supernatural force can influence the material world, then its effects can be measured and studied, in principle.
The effect/consequences of a supernatural event is not what science would try to interpret, although they can be. The question at hand is how could it be proven that an act was supernatural. The CAUSE of a supernatural event is IMPOSSIBLE for science to explain. And since the cause of a supernatural phenomenon is scientifically impossible to explain, an Atheistic evolutionists will forever live in their illusion, until the conviction of the Holy Spirit (which is not scientific  ) changes their thought process.
But yes, the effects of a supernatural can be explained scientifically such as the Noahic flood, demon possession, etc, but not the causes.
< Message edited by evry1needsgod -- 7/7/2008 2:59:09 PM >
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 2:57:03 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
Odd, I never said I, me or even hinted about what I thought. I was speaking about the goals and methods of science.
My apologies. I clearly misunderstood you and again, I'm sorry.
quote:
In any case, there could and is proof that God exists to me, but it doesn't come from science.
Do you think that science could give evidence to support God? Do you believe God is capable of using science (His own creation) to prove to mankind His existence? Because He has and still does. There is no harm in mixing science and God, and I don't understand the conniption people get in when mixing the two. They aren't meant to be separate.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 3:06:00 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1083
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Do you think that science could give evidence to support God? Do you believe God is capable of using science (His own creation) to prove to mankind His existence? Because He has and still does.
quote:
The question at hand is how could it be proven that an act was supernatural. The CAUSE of a supernatural event is IMPOSSIBLE for science to explain.
How can you assert that God has used science to prove his existence to mankind, while simultaneously asserting that science cannot be used to prove that an act is supernatural, or to understand the causes of supernatural events?
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 3:09:41 PM
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swan42
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quote:
Do you think that science could give evidence to support God?
Of course! Evidence that fits the theory must be given consideration. However, at least at first, science supporting a Christian god would be indistinguishable from science supporting a Greek god.
quote:
Do you believe God is capable of using science (His own creation) to prove to mankind His existence?
Of course, from a theological perspective God is omnipotent and can do anything.
In the meantime, do you see how little we gain exploring these topics? The answers are both obvious and useless.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 3:13:07 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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From: North Carolina!
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quote:
Fact is, they won't. Science is so blinded and limited by what they are capable of studying and understanding that if Jesus Christ came back today and raised my grandma from the dead, science would try to explain it SCIENTIFICALLY, and would go to great lengths to explain that event w/o even considering the supernatural. I think it is a safe bet to assume science will NEVER accept supernatural events as being only that - supernatural.
I like this line of thinking. It is better for science to be blind -- or double blind!
I agree scientific thinking is not the be-all-end-all. But I also contend ID does not appear to me to be scientific. But, therefore, that's not a bad thing.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 4:13:31 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
How can you assert that God has used science to prove his existence to mankind, while simultaneously asserting that science cannot be used to prove that an act is supernatural, or to understand the causes of supernatural events?
You misunderstood me. God can use science to evidence His existence (Ps. 19:1), but science can not prove the cause of perhaps the supernatural event that created this universe. But the universe, which is scientific, proves to me God exists. Science can only describe and explain those aspects of our reality of which we have observed. Everything else is beyond human comprehension, and God (a superNATURAL being) can not be explained by science, nor can miracles or supernatural events caused by Him. Science is limited by man's observation, but man's observation can lead one to believe in God. Does that clear things up?
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 4:27:05 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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Ps. 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above [1] proclaims his handiwork.
2 Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4 Their voice [2] goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
In them he has set a tent for the sun,
That's a good verse.
The universe proclaims God. But the universe is not science. Science is a method (called systematic doubt or inquiry) to investigate the universe. Science is the naming of the parts of the universe, the investigation of the processes involved between them, and the refining of this set of names and explanations (i.e.: repeat steps one and two).
The universe proclaim the God existence, but then some, like Thomas, do not believe until they put their hands in the wounds of Christ.
I just don't think it is ever a matter of proof but rather of belief and grace enabling our belief.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 5:09:31 PM
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Method
Posts: 864
Joined: 9/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
You misunderstood me. God can use science to evidence His existence (Ps. 19:1), but science can not prove the cause of perhaps the supernatural event that created this universe.
People used to say the same of Thor and lightning. I see no reason that science can not discover a mechanism by which universes are formed, nor do I see a reason why evidence present in the universe right now can not inform us as to how the universe formed.
quote:
Science can only describe and explain those aspects of our reality of which we have observed.
Have you ever watched the TV show CSI? Forensic science is capable of reconstructing events that no one witnessed. Events in the past leave evidence which is now in the present. We can, and do, use this evidence to reconstruct the past.
quote:
Science is limited by man's observation, but man's observation can lead one to believe in God. Does that clear things up?
That sounds fine to me.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/7/2008 5:32:59 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
nor do I see a reason why evidence present in the universe right now can not inform us as to how the universe formed.
This is true, except for the fact that the assumption is void of the supernatural. You assume that the universe began materialistically and observationally, assuming the supernatural was not involved. Most Atheists (idk if this includes you) will conclude that the supernatural was not involved because there is no evidence for it, but like I said before, there can never be evidence for a supernatural event, because it supersedes our natural world. And since science attempts to explain this natural world, it will not and can not explain something outside of our observations. Let me elaborate on this a bit further from a quote of yours...
quote:
Method:
quote:
evryoneneedsgod:
Science can only describe and explain those aspects of our reality of which we have observed.
Have you ever watched the TV show CSI? Forensic science is capable of reconstructing events that no one witnessed. Events in the past leave evidence which is now in the present. We can, and do, use this evidence to reconstruct the past.
Ponder the following: Imagine a person who was born and raised in a white room with 1 chair and white clothes on. Put a psychologist in that room and perform and ink test. How much can that person really know? A person cannot possibly have a thought that has not been revealed to them already. That person cannot possibly think up the color blue until he has observed it. All of his dreams would consist of a chair, the colors white, black, gray, and whatever skin tone he happens to be, and other objects that are manifestations of what he has seen. One cannot think of something that has not been manifested or that does not, or could not exist. Well, aliens don't exist. Yeah, but they have characteristics that do exist that have been observed by mankind. They have dinosaur-like skin, insect-like eyes and antenna, and human-like extremities.
Science is simply an attempt to explain these observations. Science will never be able to explain something that has not been intellectually observed by mankind. I'm speaking of human capabilities and limitations, and science will always be limited by what man has observed. The supernatural is something mankind can not observe, and is therefore impossible for science to explain.
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