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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 9:08:59 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2749
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quote:
and it's interplay with the Sermon on the Mount.
One must remember that Jesus' teaching focused on interpersonal relations and not that of government. My experience has been in meeting both criminals and the families of victims. It from these experiences and a study of scripture that I come to the position I have shared.
For those who oppose the death penalty, what would you do with Ossama Bin Landen should be caught? Does he deserve the death penalty? What about others that masterminded 9/11?
It is because we are created in the image of God that we oppose abortion because it involves the taking of an innocent life. But there are some crimes so heinous, the only justice is the death penalty and life in prison is an injust sentence.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 9:14:07 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2945
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
and its interplay with the Sermon on the Mount.
One must remember that Jesus' teaching focused on interpersonal relations and not that of government. My experience has been in meeting both criminals and the families of victims. It from these experiences and a study of scripture that I come to the position I have shared.
For those who oppose the death penalty, what would you do with Ossama Bin Landen should be caught? Does he deserve the death penalty? What about others that masterminded 9/11?
It is because we are created in the image of God that we oppose abortion because it involves the taking of an innocent life. But there are some crimes so heinous, the only justice is the death penalty and life in prison is an injust sentence.
The point is that the Mosaic law and the Sermon on the Mount are not the only considerations when examining the validity of the death penalty. The balance of scripture should be consulted as well. BTW, I'm not opposed to the death penalty.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 9:21:54 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1136
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Acts 12:21 On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people. 22 They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.” 23 Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.
Acts 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. 3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. [7 – 10 describes same thing happening to Sapphira.]
God instituted the death penalty, and even in the New Testament we see the penalty of death carried out. God grants governments and authorities the power to carry out the law as they see fit. If the law happens to include the death penalty for a particular crime, then so be it. If someone doesn't want fall under the sword of authority, then don't commit the crime. Pretty simple.
For the record, I'm neither for or against the death penalty. I am very much for respecting the laws of the country you are in and accepting the consequences should you break the law.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 9:32:07 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2945
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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Sam,
We're just discussing it. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't put a black mark against someone if they don't agree with me on this, and I don't receive it as a black mark either.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 9:33:22 PM
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BlackCapnHarlock
Posts: 375
Joined: 8/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Acts 12:21 On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people. 22 They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.” 23 Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.
Acts 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. 3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. [7 – 10 describes same thing happening to Sapphira.]
God instituted the death penalty, and even in the New Testament we see the penalty of death carried out. God grants governments and authorities the power to carry out the law as they see fit. If the law happens to include the death penalty for a particular crime, then so be it. If someone doesn't want fall under the sword of authority, then don't commit the crime. Pretty simple.
For the record, I'm neither for or against the death penalty. I am very much for respecting the laws of the country you are in and accepting the consequences should you break the law.
We are not talking about GOD talking life, we are talking about men taking the life of other men though the vehicle of a government.
GOD always has the right to take life, he's the author of it. To paraphrase Bill Cosby, "GOD is our father, he brought us in this world and he can take us out."
_____________________________
Ezekiel 16:6 Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 9:48:14 PM
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bzirk
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Good.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 10:55:11 PM
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modu
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Life is sacred. Death penalty is wrong. Through death penalty, the sinner (person) is dealth with but the sin nature (evil spirit) is left unattended. Let us try to approach societal defects from the inside to the outside. When society takes life as punishment for any crime, then society is only satisfying the plot of the adversary; the agent of death.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 11:02:51 PM
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BlackCapnHarlock
Posts: 375
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quote:
ORIGINAL: modu
Life is sacred. Death penalty is wrong. Through death penalty, the sinner (person) is dealth with but the sin nature (evil spirit) is left unattended. Let us try to approach societal defects from the inside to the outside. When society takes life as punishment for any crime, then society is only satisfying the plot of the adversary; the agent of death.
Since our death penalty is not instant and takes a while before the person is executed, it offers a lot of opportunity for repentance.
_____________________________
Ezekiel 16:6 Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 11:09:13 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16868
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: modu
Life is sacred. Death penalty is wrong. Through death penalty, the sinner (person) is dealth with but the sin nature (evil spirit) is left unattended.
That is because the government is there to deal with the crime and the punishment for that crime. The CHURCH should be dealing with the sinner. Only God can defeat the sin nature.
The big problem here is that I see people expecting the government to play a role it was never intended to play.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 11:14:01 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 581
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: modu
Life is sacred. Death penalty is wrong. Through death penalty, the sinner (person) is dealth with but the sin nature (evil spirit) is left unattended.
That is because the government is there to deal with the crime and the punishment for that crime. The CHURCH should be dealing with the sinner. Only God can defeat the sin nature.
The big problem here is that I see people expecting the government to play a role it was never intended to play.
Good point armydude.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 11:17:30 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16868
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: modu
Life is sacred. Death penalty is wrong. Through death penalty, the sinner (person) is dealth with but the sin nature (evil spirit) is left unattended.
That is because the government is there to deal with the crime and the punishment for that crime. The CHURCH should be dealing with the sinner. Only God can defeat the sin nature.
The big problem here is that I see people expecting the government to play a role it was never intended to play.
Good point armydude.
Thank you.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 11:45:36 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: doer
personally for me, killing is wrong no matter what the circumstance is. I don't have the 'killing is okay' gene.
But I do understand that the government that God had put into place has made killing okay in some situations.
I will never think it is okay.
I sure hope you dont mean that if an intruder into your home is intent on killing your loved ones, God forbid.
I hope you will never be a loved one in my house... .but even if you were the intruder, you would be a loved in my house.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 11:50:34 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 581
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From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
I'm fully cognizant that there are many various opinions on the subject, and I have no problem with that. 
Well actually it seems you do have a problem with that.
quote:
My comment was directed towards HisFish, who seems more interested in commenting on what others have said, as opposed to actually giving a statement or opinion of his own
Hmm, my saying the verse you quoted didnt apply is my opinion, you may disagree, but it is my opinion.
quote:
little pet peeve of mine ... I say join the discussion or stay out of it, but if you don't want to give your two cents, don't come in and pick on what someone else says, kwim?)
Thats my 2 cents, can i stay now 
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 11:54:31 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2384
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
For those who oppose the death penalty, what would you do with Ossama Bin Landen should be caught? Does he deserve the death penalty? What about others that masterminded 9/11?
Not repay murder with murder.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/5/2008 11:59:43 PM
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modu
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God is Spirit. Those who born of God are of His Spirit in Christ Jesus. In Christ Jesus, the evil spirit has been dealth with, and as Christians walk in the Spirit of Christ, they would help to fight out the evil spirit that sends people on wrong deeds and directions. Let us walk in the Spirit of Christ Jesus and the answers to these problems would be solved. The laws of the land (governments) are subject to Christ if we know our God. Death penalty is not a Christian value. Our fellowship in Christ Jesus is not a casual issue and should not be followed with logical understandin, but by spiritual.
The Spirit of Christ Jesus came to give us life by taking us away from death. Death is not in Christ Jesus, only life. Death is of the adversary. The true punishment for crime is to give those criminals the opportunity to reconcile with love and truth and then, use the power of life from Christ Jesus to fight back the evil spirit.
Let us face the really enemy, who is the spiritual wickedness that enters into people and use them wrongly to its destructive purpose. Look through the eyes of the Holy Spirit and you would see the adversary celebrating each time society kills a criminal for crime master-mind by the evil spirit itself. We are here on earth, empowered by the Spirit of Christ to dispel the darkness in the world. The God you are talking about now lives in us by His Spirit and His Spirit is not just in us to sleep, but would be active as our faith walk relies totally on Him. That is what the Holy Bible refers to as the demonstration of the Spirit and Power of God. the experiencing the resurrection power of Christ Jesus
vmodu.com
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 12:12:39 AM
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GraceBro
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It's often stated that if a Christian believes in grace and mercy then they should not be for the death penalty, but rather desire that someone be put away for a period of time until they have a change of heart and are willing to be a productive member of society. The Lord provided us with the Law as given through Moses and described how to maintain a sound society and a sound environment. A kind of society, environment, culture and nation that would be able to sustain and maintain itself in a productive and profitable way and to provide as much freedom for everyone as possible. If a murder were to occur you have the complete taking away of someone elses freedom and life. And because there would be no way of recovering that loss sustained by the victim the Lord declared that an execution was to take place.
The Lord never made any provision for imprisonment. The main reason why was because someone has to pay for that. And if society, or the people, have to pay for the imprisonment of a criminal then they are paying for the crime perpetrated by that criminal. Society, in effect, is being punished for someone elses crime. Therefore, the Lord made provision for execution as a way of best restoring things to the way they were before the crime took place.
Some might argue that in order for someone to have the time to repent of their crime and receive Christ as Savior then we should be in favor of imprisonment over the death penalty. It is true that if we were to give someone more time then we would have more opportunities to present the Gospel to them in hopes that they might be saved. And yes, as Christians, we should desire that someone be given every opportunity to accept the Lord. However, we also need to be sure that we are maintaining a just society as well. And the Lord has declared that in order to maintain a just society there are certain crimes that require the death penalty. Therefore, it would be unjust not to execute the criminal as well as being unjust to those who would be responsible for making sure the criminal is imprisoned.
As far as the criminal going before the Lord, we can be certain that the Lord will be just in His determination of whether an individual goes to Heaven or Hell. It is only in this life that an individual has the opportunity to accept Christ as Savior. And we know from the Gospel that no individual will have an excuse for not excepting Christ as their Savior. Even if an individual does not have a complete grasp of the Gospel they do have enough evidence around them that their is a God, there is right and wrong, that there will be a final judgement, that there will be a God that they will encounter and that they will not be able to enter into His presence and remain in His presence by their own works or by what it is that they do in order to obtain or sustain their right standing with Him.
The Lord God will look at the person and their situation and say to them that they have had more than enough opportunities to submit themselves to His will, to His authority, and to recognize that they cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven on their own, but only through His mercy and grace and whether or not they chose to accept it or reject it. Given that, we can trust that the Lord will make a good and sound decision and if we execute this person in order to maintain a sound society then we can have confidence that even though this persons life is cut short when they enter the presence of God they will be without excuse. Therefore, even if someone were given another 10, 20, 30 or 40 years of life that doesn't mean they would not have had enough time to accept Christ as Savior. So, I believe it is still necessary to allow for the death penalty to take place in order to maintain a just society.
Grace and Peace
< Message edited by GraceBro -- 7/6/2008 12:27:38 AM >
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www.livinggodministries.net
http://96toLife.blogspot.com
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 12:17:16 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 581
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
HisFish, the verse I quoted did in fact apply to the death penalty. The woman was caught in an act that was punishable by death.
I'm curious why you think this verse has nothing to do with this subject ...
No, you brought the verse in, you explain how it applies. By your reckoning we cannot sentance someone to death for murder if we had ever sinned. Using that same logic, by what rational do you sentance someone to a prison term, or a fine, or a slap on the wrist, how do you do anything but let the guilty go free?.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 12:45:47 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 581
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From: Rocky mountain way
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Consider what paul says here:
"For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar." Acts 25:11
Notice, he agrees that if he were guilty of anything deserving of death that he has no complaint against it. If he thought the death penalty were wrong here was the time to preach against it.
The Apostle John also taught that you reap what you sow:
...he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev. 13:10
And this from Numbers:
'Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death... So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it.' Num. 35:31-33
God, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 12:47:30 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 581
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Yes I brought the verse in. We are discussing the death penalty. This verse is about the death penalty.
I am not applying it to every instance in every possible situation mankind could ever be faced with. That's ridiculous.
Actually the verse is about hypocrisy.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 3:12:34 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 581
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
They were going to stone her to death = death penalty for what she did.
Sorry, its still about hypocrisy.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 5:09:54 AM
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makarizo
Posts: 2980
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
They were going to stone her to death = death penalty for what she did.
Sorry, its still about hypocrisy.
so fish
are you saying that the death penalty is all about hypocrisy, and that you are for it?
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 8:16:08 AM
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draexo
Posts: 514
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From: Saratoga County, New York
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Is this not so simple? We all know the story.
John 8:7
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 8:22:13 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16868
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
They were going to stone her to death = death penalty for what she did.
Stoning would have been the death penalty for what she did, but don't forget that Jesus could see their hearts while we can only see their actions and hear their words. He could see the hatred in their hearts as well as the jealousy. Also this was not a government agency fulfilling its role, but a group of people that was trying to do what they had no right to do.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 8:23:26 AM
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BlackCapnHarlock
Posts: 375
Joined: 8/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
Consider what paul says here:
"For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar." Acts 25:11
Notice, he agrees that if he were guilty of anything deserving of death that he has no complaint against it. If he thought the death penalty were wrong here was the time to preach against it.
The Apostle John also taught that you reap what you sow:
...he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev. 13:10
And this from Numbers:
'Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death... So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it.' Num. 35:31-33
God, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
We're not under the old testament anymore. Good new testament points.
_____________________________
Ezekiel 16:6 Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 8:25:33 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16868
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
Is this not so simple? We all know the story.
John 8:7
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Again, as I said before there is a difference between revenge or hatred based killing and a government agency carrying out its duty. This is a comparison from apples to oranges if I've ever seen one.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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