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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 8:26:22 AM
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draexo
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From: Saratoga County, New York
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
It is because we are created in the image of God that we oppose abortion because it involves the taking of an innocent life. But there are some crimes so heinous, the only justice is the death penalty and life in prison is an injust sentence.
So in YOUR eyes some crimes are more heinous. But in God's eyes, they all are - Christianity 101 - "We all have sinned". In God's eyes we are ALL deserving of death (the wages of sin are death). And as a human being, I understand that I would prefer to send some criminals on their way to meet their maker much faster than would naturally occur.
But let us remember one heinous criminal in particular by the name of Jeffrey Dahmer who claimed to be born again in prision. Is God's forgiveness limited to petty crimes? How many crimes are worse than Dahmer's? Yet he was not executed. He was saved in prision and resides with God in heaven now.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 9:50:45 AM
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bob97
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All of you who are against capital punishment are defending your position with your hearts and emotions…not the word of God.
Never fear, if there is a guilty person destined to come to God…he will. God will see to that…don’t limit the providence of God.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 12:15:59 PM
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lw9
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John 8:7 has absolutely nothing to do with government authority and civil law. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
Jesus wasn't correcting government officials or attempting to change civil law. He was speaking to followers of the Old Testament and confronting them on moral issues. Jesus grants authority to the governments to carry out the law, even when that includes the death penalty.
1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to a king as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by Him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.
John 19:10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?” 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.”
Rom 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
Why is this so difficult to accept.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 2:20:54 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
Why is this so difficult to accept.
I completely accept it.
and as for the John 8 comment you made....... the death penalty was only with permission by the Romans. (right?)
and for a Jew, this very much was a test concerning the law for Jesus.(John 8:5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded ...")
it was not the roman law.
it had everything to do with a test of Christ's allegiance to the law of Moses.
and "let him who is without sin...." Jesus was the only one there who was without sin.
He didn't say "don't stone her"..... he did say "stone her if you are without sin"
I was just reading the declaration of independence, and thinking about how unacceptable "destructive to this end" the death sentence our county puts on babies is..... our God given government
for me personally, killing (capital punishment) will never be okay, and if the government legalizes gay marriages, that won't make it okay either.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 3:36:29 PM
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terryjohn
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After just one crime we put a man to death but after so many sins we are forgiven. If we are to do unto others what we would have them do unto us, then the death penalty is not what I want. Actually it shows we have very little faith in mans ability to rehabilitate himself and even less faith in Gods ability to do the samething. If the fear of hell or the death penalty will not restrain the madness of men then surely the love of God in us will.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 3:52:10 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: terryjohn
If we are to do unto others what we would have them do unto us, then the death penalty is not what I want.
Actually if I raped, tortured, and killed someone I would expect to recieve the death penality.
What else would be a resonable conclusion.
Doesn't mean God would not forgive my if I am repentant.
But die here and now I should.
Thsnks
RC
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 4:43:35 PM
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armydude
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I find it very interesting how many people are running the two concepts of individuals vs. governments together.
The individual does not have the right to take a life in response to a murder, nor should he. The government has that right and should exercise that right. And I can't find any scripture that goes against that concept.
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You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/6/2008 8:38:38 PM
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colliefan
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By NOT applying the ultimate penalty, there are acts the government accepts as aceptable, all that is done is to take away an individual's freedom. He has shelter, food, and clothing for the rest of his natural life. Is this a just/fair penalty for a heinous crime?
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/7/2008 12:26:31 AM
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gmc4Jesus
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The individual does not have the right to execute a criminal unless that criminal is posing an immediate and serious threat to his life. I find it unacceptable for a man not to defend his family against an assailant. If someone were to come into my home and threaten me or my wife, I would do my best to terminate him with a clear conscience before God.
I don't have the right to be a vigilante in the community. That is a job for the police. However, I must know how and discern if I am ever threatened in my own home.
The government has a God ordained right and obligation to protect society from violent criminals. They also have an obligation to execute violent criminals (murderers, rapists, and others) as an example and deterent to others. You have already read enough Scriptures in this thread to support these statements.
A friend of mine is afraid to execute criminals on the hope that they may repent if they are given time to live. Although I can concede that their motive is noble, I also realize that some people are just bent on evil and don't deserve to live. God can judge their souls and salvation, but if they have committed a heinous crime, their time to repent should be limited to a fair trial and execution date.
I pray that all criminals will realize their sin and repent before they are executed. If they don't, then God will deal with them as justly as He will deal with anyone who does not repent and accept Jesus Christ as God's Son.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/7/2008 1:13:47 AM
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bob97
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Let me ask a question…does anyone think that each person alive has a destiny not ordained by God? The bible tells us in many places that God has predestined us and one of those is in Jeremiah; "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and NOT of evil, to give you an expected end."(Jere.29:11)
The bible also tells that those will be heirs of salvation have a ministering spirit (angel) to care for us; “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” (Heb 1:14)
My point is…if it is intended that someone will be saved, don’t you think that God will keep them around for that event?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/7/2008 8:02:33 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 581
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From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
The individual does not have the right to execute a criminal unless that criminal is posing an immediate and serious threat to his life. I find it unacceptable for a man not to defend his family against an assailant. If someone were to come into my home and threaten me or my wife, I would do my best to terminate him with a clear conscience before God.
I don't have the right to be a vigilante in the community. That is a job for the police. However, I must know how and discern if I am ever threatened in my own home.
The government has a God ordained right and obligation to protect society from violent criminals. They also have an obligation to execute violent criminals (murderers, rapists, and others) as an example and deterent to others. You have already read enough Scriptures in this thread to support these statements.
A friend of mine is afraid to execute criminals on the hope that they may repent if they are given time to live. Although I can concede that their motive is noble, I also realize that some people are just bent on evil and don't deserve to live. God can judge their souls and salvation, but if they have committed a heinous crime, their time to repent should be limited to a fair trial and execution date.
I pray that all criminals will realize their sin and repent before they are executed. If they don't, then God will deal with them as justly as He will deal with anyone who does not repent and accept Jesus Christ as God's Son.
Very well said.
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The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/8/2008 6:42:47 AM
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draexo
Posts: 514
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From: Saratoga County, New York
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Can anyone point to New Testament scripture that is clearly pro-capital punishment???
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TRUTH
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/8/2008 6:46:47 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
Can anyone point to New Testament scripture that is clearly pro-capital punishment???
I'm about to walk out the door to go to class, but if you'll be patient, I'll have an answer for you after school.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/8/2008 9:02:39 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2748
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
Can anyone point to New Testament scripture that is clearly pro-capital punishment???
Rom 13:1 - 5 (ESV) 1Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.
and what is the purpose of a sword? It isn't to slice bread
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/8/2008 9:04:59 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16868
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
Can anyone point to New Testament scripture that is clearly pro-capital punishment???
Rom 13:1 - 5 (ESV) 1Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.
and what is the purpose of a sword? It isn't to slice bread
Thanks! I meant to come back to this, but for some reason, I couldn't find those verses...
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/9/2008 7:29:41 AM
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draexo
Posts: 514
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From: Saratoga County, New York
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The beginning part of Romans 13 that you quote concerns submission to authority. It is really about using force to maintain order. It has nothing to do with capital punishment from a Biblical standpoint! As goverments have come and gone, so has capital punishment.
I am still waiting for a New Testament example... maybe somewhere Jesus executed someone? One of the apostles, perhaps?
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/9/2008 8:23:30 AM
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Kath
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moving from General Faith to Morality/Ethics
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/9/2008 11:35:16 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16868
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
The beginning part of Romans 13 that you quote concerns submission to authority. It is really about using force to maintain order. It has nothing to do with capital punishment from a Biblical standpoint! As goverments have come and gone, so has capital punishment.
I am still waiting for a New Testament example... maybe somewhere Jesus executed someone? One of the apostles, perhaps?
You know better than that, so I'm not going to get into that argument.
But in using force to maintain order, does this exclude the death penalty? I don't see it.
Wait. The death penalty prescribed by one of the apostles? That can be done. Ananias and Sapphira. (Acts 5)
Verses 9 and 10: "Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." At that moment she fell down at his feet and died."
God did the executing, but Peter prescribed it. If God did that, I'm pretty sure this is a good example.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/9/2008 4:13:29 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2748
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
It has nothing to do with capital punishment from a Biblical standpoint
What do think the phrase "yields the sword" means?
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