Is death penalty a Christian value? (Full Version)

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modu -> Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/2/2008 9:10:20 AM)

Let us rely on the leading of the Spirit of God here in the name of Christ Jesus and not on emotional or religous understanding.



BibleL7 -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/2/2008 10:10:10 AM)

Well before you say it is in OT Law and we are not under law it was a principle (?spel) from the time of Noah coming off the ark and was given to human government. Forgive them yes but does not mean they are excused of punishment, just they can also go to be with the Lord.



HisFish -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/3/2008 9:57:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: modu

Let us rely on the leading of the Spirit of God here in the name of Christ Jesus and not on emotional or religous understanding.

Can we use the bible?



bob97 -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/3/2008 10:11:35 AM)

We must recognize that God has given the government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7).

Bob



DSmitty -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 6:34:11 AM)

Well, I don't know if I'm being terribly spiritual in my response, but here's my 2 cents...

I think that if we're going to do it, we should do it to the point that it's effective. Otherwise, don't bother. In other words, I don't think capital punishment for the sake of capital punishment is what we're after. Capital punishment for the sake of seriously discouraging heinous acts is what we're after.

Usually when people argue with my point they'll say that murderers are not thinking of consequences. I think that they are more apt to think of consequences when the consequences are more consistent and severe.

That's my take on it.



bob97 -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 10:37:54 AM)

We have allowed a world of complacency where people think that is no punishment for their wrongs. We have turned the other cheek so long, regarding the youth and their transgressions that their attitude is…so what!

I agree with you Smitty.

Bob



skypainter07 -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 12:27:16 PM)

After a number of years of not being sure about capital punishment I finally came to the conclusion through prayer and deep contemplation that if I'm Pro-Life and believe in the sanctity of life as a whole, then I cannot support capital punishment. I am opposed to violence; which includes aggressive warfare, gang violence, domestic violence, abortion, etc. etc. I'm also in favor of compassionate counseling, healing, ministering to and reaching out to the oppressed, many of whom have committed acts of violence.

The bottom line is that I can't justify murder for murder by anything I read in Jesus' teachings. He taught passionately about forgiveness, mercy and grace. The core message is that though your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow. I would rather err on the side of forgiveness by locking murders up and keeping them away from society - allowing a period of repentance if it will come from that person - than to kill them.

We must protect our communities and we must offer punishment that fits the crime, but God is the final judge and He says that revenge belongs to Him.

Blessings,
skypainter07



colliefan -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 12:49:01 PM)

quote:

Capital punishment for the sake of seriously discouraging heinous acts is what we're after


First of all, capital punishment is NOT murder. It is the penalty for the willful taking of an innocent life. We are made imageo deo in the image of God and the willfull taking of a humans life is a crime against God.

Exceptions would fall in as described by Romans 13. Capital punishment is not a detterant because most murderers don't care about the consequences.

Over in Chapel Hill we had two thugs kidnap the UNC student president from her apartment and then took her out and executed her. The same week, they also executed a doctoral student from India at Duke. Because one of then is only 17 he can't be executed.

Both thugs have a lengthy criminal record and were on probation at the time. However, their probation officer failed to follow up on the thugs for over a year.

The issue becomes clouded when corrupt DAs put an innocent man on death row. If there is any uncertainty, the death penalty cannot be carried out. However, as in the case of the thugs who executed the students at Duke and Chapel Hill, summary execution upon conviction is mandated.



1love1God1way -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 2:04:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

We must recognize that God has given the government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7).

Bob


We must also recognize that just because God has given governments such authority, it does not mean that they will choose to do what is right in God's eyes.

cf. Nazi Germany, Darfur, etc.



colliefan -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 2:16:19 PM)

quote:

We must also recognize that just because God has given governments such authority, it does not mean that they will choose to do what is right in God's eyes.

cf. Nazi Germany, Darfur, etc


Yes, and when they fail to act in accordance with God's guidelines they must be overthrown. If need be, by force.



1love1God1way -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 2:40:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

quote:

We must also recognize that just because God has given governments such authority, it does not mean that they will choose to do what is right in God's eyes.

cf. Nazi Germany, Darfur, etc


Yes, and when they fail to act in accordance with God's guidelines they must be overthrown. If need be, by force.


That may not be necessarily accurate either, as we are to submit to authority, as all authority comes from God, but I think that's a topic for another thread.



colliefan -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 2:47:40 PM)

quote:

That may not be necessarily accurate either, as we are to submit to authority, as all authority comes from God, but I think that's a topic for another thread.


Not really, because I believe the death penalty falls under Augstine's "Just War" theory.



bob97 -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 2:53:36 PM)

What does God say?

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: (Rom 13:1-3)

Now does God call fro an eye for an eye?

Bob



ChristopherJ -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 6:34:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: modu

Let us rely on the leading of the Spirit of God here in the name of Christ Jesus and not on emotional or religous understanding.


To answer your initial question - Is death penalty a Christian value? - one must have an understanding of the nature of the Old Testament law. There are three aspects of the law of God in the OT:

1. The Moral Law. These are God's principles of right and wrong and are universal and therefore binding on all people in all time periods. Rules such as do not lie, do not steal, etc. fall under this category. Note that never (not even in the OT) was keeping the law the grounds of our salvation. However, keeping the law has always been the fruit of one who has been genuinely born again.

2. The Ceremonial Law. These aspects of the Jewish religious systems were shadows and types that were fulfilled in Christ. This include laws pertaining to animal sacrifices, and since they have been fulfilled, they are no longer binding on us as NT believers.

3. The Civil Law. These aspects of the Jewish political systems were the rules put in place to govern the punishing of those who violated the moral law of God. For example - capital punishment. And, because we do not live in the nation of Israel, their civil law does not apply to us. As has already been mentioned in this thread, as Christians, we are to be subject to the civil laws of the country we reside in, whether or not that nation supports capital punishment.

So, in conclusion - I do not believe that the death penalty is a 'Christian value', however, because God did mandate its use in the OT, I am not totally opposed to it either, if (a) it is sanctioned by the political governing body (as opposed to being carried out by a so-called Christian vigilante), and (b) on the unquestionable proof and evidence of at least two or three witnesses. Those are my thoughts!



19ramman85 -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 7:07:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DSmitty

Well, I don't know if I'm being terribly spiritual in my response, but here's my 2 cents...

I think that if we're going to do it, we should do it to the point that it's effective. Otherwise, don't bother. In other words, I don't think capital punishment for the sake of capital punishment is what we're after. Capital punishment for the sake of seriously discouraging heinous acts is what we're after.

Usually when people argue with my point they'll say that murderers are not thinking of consequences. I think that they are more apt to think of consequences when the consequences are more consistent and severe.

That's my take on it.




This is one - "Christian", who doesn't really- "Care", one way or the other if it is a - "Christian", whatever.

From my viewpoint- the death penalty is a useless peice of punishment. Meaning- the only person it is detering from committing another violent and or heinous act- is the perpetrator.

That's it!

I laugh at people- who have this misconception- that if we enforce/impose the death penalty- we wouldn't have so much crime.

Yeah, right- and I have some property for sale- you might be interested in!

Explain this you people who are -"For", the death penalty; if the death penalty was soooooooo effective- then why is the violent/heinous crime rate about the same, in pro and con death penalty States?

And do you really - "think", someone; who comes from a bad part of town and or family- where the morals are as few as cops, who is Hell-bent on whatever (revenge, rape, murder, etc), and all the rest of the evil human nature has to offer- is going to be concerned whether they get the death penalty?

You're a - fool, if you believe that the death penalty does much for the crime rate!


-charles



colliefan -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 8:27:13 PM)

quote:

You're a - fool, if you believe that the death penalty does much for the crime rate!


The arguement about it being a feterant is not the issue; what is the issue if the death penalty is a just penalty for a heinous crime(s). The thugs who killed the students at UNC/Duke, the creep who raped and killed the girl in Vermont, and Ted Bundy who killed at least eight women. I believe it is just and needed.



modu -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/4/2008 11:27:28 PM)

Skypainter07
Somehow, most people do not get it, but your position speaks well into the heart of Christ Jesus on this issue. Pro-life and rightly too after prayers and good meditations.
Thanks



Butterflytearz -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/5/2008 1:01:47 AM)

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

What is wrong with life in prison if someone is considered dangerous to society and cannot be rehabilitated? I believe that God gives second chances.[sm=crystreams.gif]



DSmitty -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/5/2008 9:00:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: modu

Let us rely on the leading of the Spirit of God here in the name of Christ Jesus and not on emotional or religous understanding.


To answer your initial question - Is death penalty a Christian value? - one must have an understanding of the nature of the Old Testament law. There are three aspects of the law of God in the OT:

1. The Moral Law. These are God's principles of right and wrong and are universal and therefore binding on all people in all time periods. Rules such as do not lie, do not steal, etc. fall under this category. Note that never (not even in the OT) was keeping the law the grounds of our salvation. However, keeping the law has always been the fruit of one who has been genuinely born again.

2. The Ceremonial Law. These aspects of the Jewish religious systems were shadows and types that were fulfilled in Christ. This include laws pertaining to animal sacrifices, and since they have been fulfilled, they are no longer binding on us as NT believers.

3. The Civil Law. These aspects of the Jewish political systems were the rules put in place to govern the punishing of those who violated the moral law of God. For example - capital punishment. And, because we do not live in the nation of Israel, their civil law does not apply to us. As has already been mentioned in this thread, as Christians, we are to be subject to the civil laws of the country we reside in, whether or not that nation supports capital punishment.

So, in conclusion - I do not believe that the death penalty is a 'Christian value', however, because God did mandate its use in the OT, I am not totally opposed to it either, if (a) it is sanctioned by the political governing body (as opposed to being carried out by a so-called Christian vigilante), and (b) on the unquestionable proof and evidence of at least two or three witnesses. Those are my thoughts!


That's impressive... very well thought out and presented position.



BlackCapnHarlock -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/5/2008 9:05:30 AM)

I personally feel folks who rape and murder should die painfully and quickly. Not months from the act or weeks from the act or even years but 3 days after conviction. There should be no remorse, nor pitty for wicked folks.

With that being said that's my personal feeling that's not GOD's word. We have a nation that is I believe ordained by GOD, even in all it's evils and good GOD in his sovereign wisdom GOD founded and allowed the rise and fall of all nations in the history of mankind. Good ones, average ones and even evil ones.

Our nation has laws, and some of those states have the death penalty and some don't. We as Christians should adhere to these just laws. If we don't we could get any penalty that the law provides including death.

The new testament clearly preaches against personal vengeance. As for the death penalty. I am still researching it as I have heard and read convincing arguments from both sides.



colliefan -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/5/2008 11:57:42 AM)

quote:

What is wrong with life in prison if someone is considered dangerous to society and cannot be rehabilitated? I believe that God gives second chances.


The issue isn't about one being a danger to society. The issue is that there are certain crimes so heinous the death penalty is justified. As I have said, I have a great deal of experience in prison ministry, some of that on NC's death row.

Some years ago I met Ricky Sanderson. Ricky brutally raped and murdered a young girl while high on drugs and at the end of a crime spree.

He met the Lord, and became convinced that his death was a proper penalty for his crime. His only request was that her family forgave him for his acts. The family wrote him a letter that was given to him the night he died that expressed their forgiveness was passed on God's grace alone.

On the other extreme, one day while in the prison for a bible study, I was having lunch in the lunchroom with the men who attended the bible study.
One of the guys at the table had not come to the bible study.

I recognized him b/c of the news surrounding his crime. He was a law student at UNC who had grown tired of his pregnant wife. He threw her off a bridge and then concucted a story that she had been hit by a car whose driver had fled the scene.

At the trial it became evident that he was going to be convicted and would probably receive the death penalty, He quickly copt a plea for life in prison.

In all my years of prison ministry, I have never met such a cold-hearted man. No remorse for the crime. Empty eyes that spoke of an empty soul.

The State is given the right to be the one that applies justice. In some - not all - the death penalty is the only applicable one.



makarizo -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/5/2008 2:51:14 PM)

personally for me, killing is wrong no matter what the circumstance is. I don't have the 'killing is okay' gene.
But I do understand that the government that God had put into place has made killing okay in some situations.
I will never think it is okay.



HisFish -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/5/2008 8:33:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doer

personally for me, killing is wrong no matter what the circumstance is. I don't have the 'killing is okay' gene.
But I do understand that the government that God had put into place has made killing okay in some situations.
I will never think it is okay.

I sure hope you dont mean that if an intruder into your home is intent on killing your loved ones, God forbid.



HisFish -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/5/2008 8:37:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focusing

When I think about the death penalty, I think about this verse: "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." (John 8:7)

That verse dosent even apply to this situation, if it did you couldent even put them in prison using that logic.



bzirk -> RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? (7/5/2008 8:51:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focusing

When I think about the death penalty, I think about this verse: "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." (John 8:7)

That verse dosent even apply to this situation, if it did you couldent even put them in prison using that logic.


Or even write a traffic ticket or discipline children or any number of things which involve consequences for wrong doing.

The Lord was the initiator of the death penalty, and I'm not specifically referring to the Mosaic law that ChristopherJ limited his argument to. Well thought out as it was, the issue is much bigger than the Mosaic law and its interplay with the Sermon on the Mount.



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