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RE: Why the tree of knowledge? - 8/7/2008 5:04:11 PM
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guessed
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I appear to have transgressed some of the forum rules and for that my apologies. My comments were deliberately trenchant in order to express my own rational views.
As to the concept of deity (I don't care for anthropororphic language) I repeat that an all-powerful force could have produced a world without pain or suffering. That it clearly didn't leaves the sceptic with questions that theology can never answer.
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RE: Why the tree of knowledge? - 8/7/2008 5:24:02 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: guessed
I appear to have transgressed some of the forum rules and for that my apologies. My comments were deliberately trenchant in order to express my own rational views.
As to the concept of deity (I don't care for anthropororphic language) I repeat that an all-powerful force could have produced a world without pain or suffering. That it clearly didn't leaves the sceptic with questions that theology can never answer.
That may leave questions that a sceptic would prefer remain unanswered, but there are answers.
However, why do you not want to use anthropomorphic language when that very supreme being condescended to use it? Shouldn't the supreme being be the judge of what language to use?
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Why the tree of knowledge? - 8/7/2008 5:40:25 PM
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toujours
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I do not think the emphasis is on the 'tree' but on the 'knowledge of good and evil' - in the same way the emphasis is not on the 'tree' but on 'life' in the phrase 'Tree of Life.' Life giving vs. life taking, and of course the 'trees' are only metaphors.
Far too big a concept to be broken down in a few paragraphs or by one understanding.. but if we are justified and found worthy of life by our faith in Jesus Christ then 'knowledge of good and evil' must be the antipathy -a state of rebellion - lack of complete trust in God.
Before this point Eve knew only what is good, and she believed the voice of God. Now she knows evil - in every sense of the word, because she did not believe God, but Satan - and then Adam made the choice to hearken unto her voice instead of God's and knew evil, too. They were no longer pure and innocent children of God, but hearers and doers of the things that oppose our Maker. They were aware of their 'options' - which are too hard to resist.
Just a few thoughts..
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RE: Why the tree of knowledge? - 8/7/2008 5:54:38 PM
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toujours
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quote:
quote:
The tree of knowledge of good and evil was simply a perversion of the truth. There was no goodness of God in it.
I don't know what version of the Bible that came from. My version says God saw all that he had created and declared "It is good."
God created Lucifer good - yet he still fell, of his own accord. I think the 'knowledge of good and evil' is not evil of itself. God Elohim said 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:' The problem lies in that it is impossible for we mortals to resist.
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RE: Why the tree of knowledge? - 8/7/2008 6:03:24 PM
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toujours
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quote:
I repeat that an all-powerful force could have produced a world without pain or suffering. That it clearly didn't leaves the sceptic with questions that theology can never answer.
'It' did. Twice. In the first instance the covering cherub corrupted himself. In the second - man 'produced' a world that includes pain and suffering.
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RE: Why the tree of knowledge? - 8/7/2008 7:10:39 PM
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guessed
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
That may leave questions that a sceptic would prefer remain unanswered, but there are answers.
On a rational, and indeed humanist, level the conundrum remains. Namely that an omnipotent creator that is believed to be all loving, has created evil and allowed misery to flourish when it had the foreknowledge to prevent both.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHortonHowever, why do you not want to use anthropomorphic language when that very supreme being condescended to use it? Shouldn't the supreme being be the judge of what language to use?
These are the words of men, albeit men who believed they were divinely inspired, but men nonetheless.
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RE: Why the tree of knowledge? - 8/8/2008 11:04:47 AM
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DougHorton
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quote:
On a rational, and indeed humanist, level the conundrum remains. Namely that an omnipotent creator that is believed to be all loving, has created evil...
Evil is not always the synonym of wickedness or sin. The distinction can be seen in the death of Christ. He was not wicked, and was sinless, yet was subjected to death, which everybody admits is evil. Pain is evil. Death is evil. But they are necessary for life. Life could not exist if we could not eat dead things. Otherwise this planet would soon be one massive organism of parasites feeding off of one another.
Likewise, pain teaches us to avoid danger, disciplines us, and in general provides boundaries within which we live more fruitful lives. Would you like to live life without pain? That is the condition of lepers, and you can easily see where life would soon be. Imagine a world of lepers.
quote:
... and allowed misery to flourish when it had the foreknowledge to prevent both.
Misery is man-made. It is man's perception of his own condition. Either you can learn to be content with your situation, or you can improve your situation. Both options lead to Godly lives. A third option, perceive yourself an entitled victim and inflict misery on other people is also your choice. god does not force it on you, but He can use it to improve the lives of others.
Furthermore, without misery, grace would not be visible. The light of a candle is only good in the darkness. It is useless in the sunlight. Both flowers and food grow out of decomposition. We see this pattern throughout the natural world. I doubt if you even question them. So is it unreasonable that the metaphysical world would not operate on the same principles?
quote:
These are the words of men, albeit men who believed they were divinely inspired, but men nonetheless.
Everything, every single thing you know comes from the words of men. That argument invalidates nothing.
When God spoke from Mount Sinai, He spoke in an audible and understandable speech to thousands upon thousands of witnesses. If this was the fantasy of the one man, Moses, given that the Israelites proved themselves rebellious to Moses' leadership, they could have easily killed Moses and written history as they wished. They didn't. So we have the hostile witness of thousands testifying that God did indeed speak.
However, this is off topic. I'd be glad to continue this conversation in email or PM if you like.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Why the tree of knowledge? - 8/8/2008 9:31:27 PM
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toujours
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quote:
Misery is man-made. It is man's perception of his own condition. Either you can learn to be content with your situation, or you can improve your situation. Both options lead to Godly lives. A third option, perceive yourself an entitled victim and inflict misery on other people is also your choice. god does not force it on you, but He can use it to improve the lives of others.
Well said. Thank you.
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