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selahgirl -> RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) (7/8/2008 1:38:07 PM)
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Whoever it was above who said, "what is God telling you to do?" I agree with the sentiment, but i also say use caution and wisdom. God already said what to do in such cases in Scripture... but there are times when he specifically tells someone to do something contrary... like marry a prostitute or join a dance team when you know that dancing is against your nature and you will never dance (another story for another time).
My husband and I were first saved in the church he grew up in, the pastor was a zealous young pastor licensed in the holiness movement... but as we began to ask about wearing jeans to church and other doctrinal issues during our meetings together... he told us the same thing... that he was licensed with that denomination but that there were a number of doctrinal issues that he didn't agree with. We were young and God was doing so much in our hearts personally, we were raised not to question authority or pastors... so we embraced it.
but... I wish I knew then what I know now. Any man that is representing a denomination and is secretly telling members things contrary to KEY FOUNDATIONS of the doctrine he agreed to represent and teach... has serious character issues that WILL COME BACK TO BITE you. No matter how nice they are, no matter how likable and trendy and cutting edge and common sense sounding they are, no matter how much you have in common or are in agreement about. If someone is willing to sin or betray anyone else... they will do it to you down the road. Someone that justifies going back on their word against good people, breaking a trust... is not someone that can be trusted no matter how likable they are. period.
And it does trickle down to those under their teaching. Some will not receive teaching from such a corrupted spirit and will begin to question things... and they will be blackballed and outcast. Other will embrace it blindly as though they are more righteous because they are not questioning the position of the leaders -- they enter a mindset that equates position and title with being equal to God. Such churches in my experience enter into a cult phase and are soon ripped apart -- because God WILL protect his name. Not that he tears it apart, but he lets the choices of such people in the pulpit and in the congregation run it's course and bear the fruit of what they planted. That fruit is chaos and destruction in the lives of everyone that eats of it.
But God will make a way to healing and wholeness for those truly innocent and caught in the mess. And he will make a way back to wholeness for those who sincerely repent.
Anyway... it is the character of a person in the small things that often reveals their character in the big things. Truly Godly ppl will seek Godly character at all times. I would say like this guy all you want, but only put yourself under the leadership of someone who is Truthful in every way before God and Man. I'm nobody to you... but I've seen that seed of rebellion planted in the heart of men with power... and the fruit in time is devastation -- absolute bloody and cruel devastation of everyone involved. Even the guy that trained under that specific pastor... walks with the same character flaws of arrogance and justifying the sin of his leaders above and below him -- excusing his cover ups as being his tremendous and rare GIFT OF MERCY. He murders those he deems as insignificant and feeds the sin of those addicted to selfish ambition. And there are tons of dead and wounded in their wake.
God will clean up the church in these last days.
He's coming for a bride that's without spot or wrinkle. When a leader rebells against the leadership or denomination above him/her... and does it in secret... and justifies it... and leads others to embrace that rebellion... there is a poison in that ministry that will kill you and everything you love. Get out. If you're not in agreement with your denomination or leadership, go to them and reason together. If the differences are deep enough to where you cannot remain under that denomination, you need to step out and not represent that denomination. Otherwise you are lying and walking in a measure of rebellion no matter how you try to paint it.
Find a church that aligns with the core of your faith. A church where you can talk openly with your leadership and things are done openly and not in secret rebellion. It's difficult to lay down a title or to not be in a ministry role after you've held such a spot most of your walk. But you either walk in Godly character all the time, or you're a fraud. Sorry... that's just the way I see it. I don't even have a church home right now, haven't for over three years. After 20 years of teen/children's ministry and working with new converts. Because I resigned and left my last church when the leadership was covering up the sins of one of it's leaders. The pastor of that church is the one that trained under the first guy. He covered the sins of that pastor even after he was cheating on his wife and eventually started having an affair. Then he covered the sins of his leaders under him when he took over my former church.
Only after looking back over so much craziness and trying to glean some kind of lesson, did I grasp the depth of so much. Things I should have seen, things that seemed not a big deal when they were doing them, things I should have called into question or told someone other than their circle of leadership. But I feared of saying too much at the time and falling into gossip. Leadership was huge on teaching against gossip in any form... unless it was to a leader and they deemed it useful to protecting their interests. Broken Trust. Abuse of Power. It all starts by putting yourself under authority that does not fully seek Godly Truth at all times, in the big and the small.
yes. Character counts. The character of the leaders you put yourself under matters.
don't join yourself to such a spirit of rebellion, no matter how subtle it seems. Be discerning. Put character in people as a priority for forming key relationships and ties to people. I attend a church with my teens, they have joined but my husband and I have not because we don't agree with the doctrine of alcohol. We attended the membership classes before allowing our children to join, and we met with the pastor and discussed the issue. We have a great and mutual respect for one another. Alcohol is one of only two area's of their doctrine that conflict with key portions of my faith. But I will still not sign a membership form saying I will adhere to certain doctrines, when I know I will have to violate them. That would be lying. And lying (while to men seems small in some cases) is a very big deal to God. (not that I drink alot. I often go months without any alcohol, and when I do partake it's no more that a glass or two of wine).
But I love this church otherwise. Because it is the ONLY one that I have found that will still allow me to participate in ministry as long as I attend on a regular basis and they are able to be in relationship with me and my family. EVERY other church that we visited required membership or applied great pressure to sign the dotted line whether you were being truthful or not about the covenant you were entering into. Truth didn't seem to matter as much as membership numbers and putting their name on you. I am held accountable in this church, but I am allowed to help with community outreach projects and to assist in the teen group and to pray with people. If Jesus were in the world today... I have no doubt that he would be rejected by 90-95% of the churches in America. I know ppl that are leaving the church in droves... huge flocks that love Christ and are wandering the wilderness. And much of it stems from those seeds of past ministry that discarded Truth and Integrity in the little things as much as the big ones. It's heartbreaking, but God is at work and exciting things are beginning to stir.
sorry to ramble so... I just see such writing on the wall in this situation and I have trouble keeping my big mouth shut in such instances. If you find me annoying... just ignore me and go with God. Much love <3
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