RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure

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rlj -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 8:14:42 AM)
quote: It would seem that back in 1945, when the political system in this country was not so polarizing and devisive, we were able to turn Germany back over to the Germans a whole lot better than we have been able to do in Iraq. I think it is absolutely ridiculous today how polarized everything is. I honestly believe that if I woke up one morning and Republicans unanimously supported a bill giving free health care to every man woman and child in the country unconditionally and that same day if Democrats wanted to abolish all federal taxes by 80% unanimously neither one would pass because the other side would rather fight and argue than actually cooperate. Look at illegal immigration. Dubya and the Dems before the '06 midterms were somewhat close in what they wanted to accomplish with immigration reform. Lose the '06 midterms and he pretty much wanted nothing to do with it. Should McCain win I will respect him because he crosses the aisle and realizes that unless you can find a way to work with Librulz, Democrats, Moderates, Conservatives and Republicans nothing can get done. It is simply reality.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 8:59:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 And the insurgent could have also simply watched US media coverage and discovered that Bush was already being blamed for it. Maybe they didn't, but maybe they did. Either way, they were loose cannons to begin with if that was all it took for them to go on a rampage. And to be honest it certainly does not bother me that the US did NOT use these Iraqis to help us in our effort. If by their own testimony this one comment sent them off like that then they would never have had any business working alongside US troops IMO. Sophie11, English is not the language of Iraq. If those Iraqis didn't speak anything other than Arabic; if electricity was (and still is down), and/or if they were too busy trying to feed their families rather than to watch ABC, CNN, CBS (that's assuming they get the same night time news broadcasts you and I get - which I find doubtful) - don't blame them for not knowing what happened to Bush after his comment. Besides, it's quite a lot to ask of average Iraqis to know the subtleties of US politics to know Bush would be bashed for that comment. They were already angry. He taunted them. And Bush had to bite the bullet. As for your second paragraph - seems as if you misunderstood my explanation of the events. They believed our promises. Bremer overruled the US officials on the ground. They lost their jobs. They felt betrayed. It's that simple. I suggest you watch NO END IN SIGHT although I won't be surprised if you don't. Now, you have a great day.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 9:00:57 AM)
How about this, Leon_Figg3: it seems that you're very concerned with the conclusions and arguments I make. Would you like to discuss in a serious but polite manner what those conclusions and arguments are and why they are troublesome to you? quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 RichLP, After skipping over parts of the film that seemed to be heavily biased and seemed to do nothing more than rehash old arguements, I managed to see more of the film. As a result, I quess I have somewhat softened my stance. However, I am still very troubled by conclusions-if memory serves me right- you have repeatedly drawn and the fairly unprovable cause and affect arguemnets-if memory serves me right-you have also repeatedly drawn. Though Truman's sentiment that "The buck stops here" may sound like very good guidance for our presidents to follow, it should not blind us to the very real possibility that our government has grown so large, so insulated and isolated from reality that whoever is the president can not possibly keep on top of everything and be assured that he is getting all the information he needs to make timely decisions. Repeatedly, in the film, I was struck by the fact that for some reason, the objections people held about what decisions were being made, never seemed to get up to the president in any sort of way. Repeatedly, in the film, I was struck by the apparent fact that departments didn' seem to talk with each other very well. I was struck by the apparent fact that after Iraq fell and was later secured, is some fashion (prior to Bremer and others), that many of those assigned to Iraq seemed to be more concerned about themselves than the jobs they were being sent there to do, thus making a bad situation even worse, which unfortuneately is what happens in war. It is what happens when individuals and beauacrasies grow larger, and acquire a degree of self importancce and power that they do not rightly derserve. In short, I am not so easily stirred to blame the Bush administration for mistakes and problems that arose in Iraq. I do blame the political system that has evolved in our country which seems to handicap the president, in all kinds of ways and makes him fair game for all kinds of criticism no matter what he does. Were mistakes made? Yes. Were these mistakes eventually corrected, in some way? Yes. It would seem that back in 1945, when the political system in this country was not so polarizing and devisive, we were able to turn Germany back over to the Germans a whole lot better than we have been able to do in Iraq. quote: rly unprovable cause and affect arguemnets-if memory serves me right-you have also

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 9:37:34 AM)
RichLP, Thank you for the invitation, however I feel I must pass on it for number of reasons. Primarily, I feel I must pass because, as in times passed, it has become very clear that you and I see and interpret things very differently. We see cause and affect relationships differently. For that I must thank you for your patience and tolerance, especally in times, such as this one, when my emothions and rhetoic, have gotten the best of me. I also feel I must pass on your invitation because what has happened has happened. We need to learn from it and move on because we are about to elect a new president, and a new administration, who undoubtebly will make a whole new set of mistakes, mis-calculations, and assignments of personal to areas that they know, or care, nothing about. History, as always, will judge what was done right and what was done wrong, in light of the bigger picture, and in light of what the other side was doing. I also have personal reasons to decline. I like talking about current events and politics. I like sharing my opinions, experiences, and exercising my critical thinking in such matters. Sometimes I do all this to the neglect of other areas, and interests in my life. My life gets off balance and this embalance becomes evident in my thinking and writing. Till next time our paths cross.

Sophie11 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 9:50:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP As for your second paragraph - seems as if you misunderstood my explanation of the events. They believed our promises. Bremer overruled the US officials on the ground. They lost their jobs. They felt betrayed. It's that simple. And what I am saying is that if the loss of a job and the feeling of betrayal is the excuse to start killing people then these insurgents had to have already been of that mindset to begin with. I know many people who lose their jobs and feel betrayed and certainly would never expect them to attack others as recourse. All I am saying is that that is not a legitimate excuse in my mind.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 9:55:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP As for your second paragraph - seems as if you misunderstood my explanation of the events. They believed our promises. Bremer overruled the US officials on the ground. They lost their jobs. They felt betrayed. It's that simple. And what I am saying is that if the loss of a job and the feeling of betrayal is the excuse to start killing people then these insurgents had to have already been of that mindset to begin with. I know many people who lose their jobs and feel betrayed and certainly would never expect them to attack others as recourse. All I am saying is that that is not a legitimate excuse in my mind. No one amongst these people whom you know who have lost jobs and felt betrayed were soldiers of a foreign country who were promised a future by an invading occupation army and then didn't get those jobs while that foreign occupation army now was in charge of their country. Their country got invaded, much destruction followed, and they were anxious for a future. You promise them something, they believe you, then they don't get it - don't expect men in traditional societies like Iraq not to take pride and honor very seriously. Their career was the army. Their sworn oath was to defend Iraq from invaders. The invaders promised them something and they gave the invaders their trust. The invaders broke their promise. Why would those soldiers who had the defense of Iraq from foreign aggression as their career objective just stood by? You're not looking at things from the Iraqis' point of view and until you at least try to you will never see that our side did bad things as well. Or do you think Americans would have been unjustified in waging a guerrilla war against a foreign army occupying the United States?

Sophie11 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 10:02:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP No one amongst these people whom you know who have lost jobs and felt betrayed were soldiers of a foreign country who were promised a future by an invading occupation army and then didn't get those jobs while that foreign occupation army now was in charge of their country. Their country got invaded, much destruction followed, and they were anxious for a future. You promise them something, they believe you, then they don't get it - don't expect men in traditional societies like Iraq not to take pride and honor very seriously. Their career was the army. Their sworn oath was to defend Iraq from invaders. The invaders promised them something and they gave the invaders their trust. The invaders broke their promise. Why would those soldiers who had the defense of Iraq from foreign aggression as their career objective just stood by? You're not looking at things from the Iraqis' point of view and until you at least try to you will never see that our side did bad things as well. Or do you think Americans would have been unjustified in waging a guerrilla war against a foreign army occupying the United States? We are just going to disagree. No matter the circumstances, or how badly their "pride and honor" were hurt, I see no reason to excuse them while at the same time bashing the US for every single misstep. Talk about bias.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 10:07:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP No one amongst these people whom you know who have lost jobs and felt betrayed were soldiers of a foreign country who were promised a future by an invading occupation army and then didn't get those jobs while that foreign occupation army now was in charge of their country. Their country got invaded, much destruction followed, and they were anxious for a future. You promise them something, they believe you, then they don't get it - don't expect men in traditional societies like Iraq not to take pride and honor very seriously. Their career was the army. Their sworn oath was to defend Iraq from invaders. The invaders promised them something and they gave the invaders their trust. The invaders broke their promise. Why would those soldiers who had the defense of Iraq from foreign aggression as their career objective just stood by? You're not looking at things from the Iraqis' point of view and until you at least try to you will never see that our side did bad things as well. Or do you think Americans would have been unjustified in waging a guerrilla war against a foreign army occupying the United States? We are just going to disagree. No matter the circumstances, or how badly their "pride and honor" were hurt, I see no reason to excuse them while at the same time bashing the US for every single misstep. Talk about bias. Your most basic error is that you think I'm excusing them when what I did do was EXPLAIN the birth of the insurgency. "bashing the US for every single misstep" - a gross generalization based on your misinterpretations and almost certainly on a sketchy grasp of the facts. "talk about bias" - are you utterly impartial? [;)]

Sophie11 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 10:16:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP Your most basic error is that you think I'm excusing them when what I did do was EXPLAIN the birth of the insurgency. It seems more like an excuse when you refuse to admit they may have already been inclined to want to kill US soldiers. quote: "bashing the US for every single misstep" - a gross generalization based on your misinterpretations and almost certainly on a sketchy grasp of the facts. A generalization of most of your posts I remember reading is all. I could be wrong, but it seems you are very much ready to blame the US while reasoning away any wrongdoing by anyone else. quote: "talk about bias" - are you utterly impartial? [;)] Well of course no one really is, even when they think they are. It's relative to where you live and what you have studied and heard.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 10:44:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 It seems more like an excuse when you refuse to admit they may have already been inclined to want to kill US soldiers. If you think explaining and excusing are the same thing, I don't know what to say. But I will ask again: do you think Americans would have been unjustified in waging a guerrilla war against a foreign army occupying the United States? quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 A generalization of most of your posts I remember reading is all. I could be wrong, but it seems you are very much ready to blame the US while reasoning away any wrongdoing by anyone else. Are you saying the foreign policy of the United States is always right or that its implementation, even through well-intentioned and dedicated persons, never harms innocents? quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 Well of course no one really is, even when they think they are. It's relative to where you live and what you have studied and heard. Then if you've heard and studied evidence that refutes NO END IN SIGHT, please provide it. I would be willing to examine your sources; are you willing to at least examine mine?

Sophie11 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 10:49:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 It seems more like an excuse when you refuse to admit they may have already been inclined to want to kill US soldiers. If you think explaining and excusing are the same thing, I don't know what to say. But I will ask again: do you think Americans would have been unjustified in waging a guerrilla war against a foreign army occupying the United States? quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 A generalization of most of your posts I remember reading is all. I could be wrong, but it seems you are very much ready to blame the US while reasoning away any wrongdoing by anyone else. Are you saying the foreign policy of the United States is always right or that its implementation, even through well-intentioned and dedicated persons, never harms innocents? quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 Well of course no one really is, even when they think they are. It's relative to where you live and what you have studied and heard. Then if you've heard and studied evidence that refutes NO END IN SIGHT, please provide it. I would be willing to examine your sources; are you willing to at least examine mine? Honestly Rich, we just disagree completely. Let's leave it at that. I'm not going to be baited into some long drawn out argument because you want to put words in my mouth.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 10:51:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 It seems more like an excuse when you refuse to admit they may have already been inclined to want to kill US soldiers. If you think explaining and excusing are the same thing, I don't know what to say. But I will ask again: do you think Americans would have been unjustified in waging a guerrilla war against a foreign army occupying the United States? quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 A generalization of most of your posts I remember reading is all. I could be wrong, but it seems you are very much ready to blame the US while reasoning away any wrongdoing by anyone else. Are you saying the foreign policy of the United States is always right or that its implementation, even through well-intentioned and dedicated persons, never harms innocents? quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 Well of course no one really is, even when they think they are. It's relative to where you live and what you have studied and heard. Then if you've heard and studied evidence that refutes NO END IN SIGHT, please provide it. I would be willing to examine your sources; are you willing to at least examine mine? Honestly Rich, we just disagree completely. Let's leave it at that. I'm not going to be baited into some long drawn out argument because you want to put words in my mouth. No, I don't want to put words in your mouth; if you wish to debate and initiate a conversation, I will reply. Studying history and current event necessitates getting as many facts as possible, rather than letting oneself be led away by what we think is right because of convention. Have a nice day.

Sophie11 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 10:57:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP No, I don't want to put words in your mouth; if you wish to debate and initiate a conversation, I will reply. Studying history and current event necessitates getting as many facts as possible, rather than letting oneself be led away by what we think is right because of convention. Have a nice day. I too study history and facts Rich. It's just that people will still view things differently. Ten people can each study the same material and all come away with different opinions. That's just the way it is. Basically, I realize you seem to be set in your opinion, and I am set in mine. I would rather not get into a debate that will end with both of us frustrated and nothing being learned. That's all. Anyway, you have a good day as well. [:)]

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 2:44:19 PM)
If one isn't willing to at least examine why foreigners feel the way they do (not that they'll be right or justified every time), then we run the risk of making the same mistakes. We Americans would rise to arms against a foreign occupation army. There are Americans (militias) who claim the Constitution grants them the rights to bear arms. I speculate these guys would turn their guns on foreign troops marching down their towns.

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 3:39:07 PM)
Not that it is part of the topic that is suppose to be under discussion, but one of the reasons we have a Constitutional tight to own weapons is to protect us from our own government, and change our government through a force of arms as a last resort. Believe it or not, I believe we have more to fear from our political system than we ever will have to fear from a foreign invasion. We seem to be getting way off topic discussing the insurrency that happened in Iraq soon after we liberated it, and made mistakes in regard to the Iraqi police and military. Mistakes that some people still refuse to believe and acknowlegde have been corrected. Mistakes that may have indeed contributed to the insurgency but not to the degree that some people would like to have every one believe. No all the Iraq police and military personal took up arms against us after they were disbanded. That is humanly and statisticvally impossible and, above all, not reflected in actual events. Maybe, just maybe, because those mistakes have been corrected that the Iraqis now feel that they are able to step up and take care of themselves and ask us to phase out our pressence in their country.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 4:17:07 PM)
A striking pattern I've noticed when discussing the Iraq war is that supporters of the war rationalize and tolerate actions on the part of the Bush administration that they would have condemned had it been a different party or president in power, or if the Iraqis or another country were the one doing those actions. And as I said, I really do wonder how many of those here who condemn Iraqi soldiers for turning their guns on US troops (as tragic as it is when our men and women in uniform die) would be equally adamant in their indignation had it been the USA and not Iraq who were chafing under the presence of a foreign military occupation.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 4:18:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 Maybe, just maybe, because those mistakes have been corrected that the Iraqis now feel that they are able to step up and take care of themselves and ask us to phase out our pressence in their country. Let's get out then. I mean, isn't that what Iraq wants? (shrug)

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 5:15:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP A striking pattern I've noticed when discussing the Iraq war is that supporters of the war rationalize and tolerate actions on the part of the Bush administration that they would have condemned had it been a different party or president in power, or if the Iraqis or another country were the one doing those actions. And as I said, I really do wonder how many of those here who condemn Iraqi soldiers for turning their guns on US troops (as tragic as it is when our men and women in uniform die) would be equally adamant in their indignation had it been the USA and not Iraq who were chafing under the presence of a foreign military occupation. RichLP, Please enlighten us as to how you come to these conclusions? Who all is condemning the Iraqis for responding as they did? We just seem to disaggree with you as to how many Iraqis actually did what you say they did. We disagree with you as to who the "insurgents" actually were. Mistakes happen in every war and conflict (sorry but it is a fact of life) . People with little knowledge or interest in positions they are put into tend to make bad decisions, and rely on the wrong people in order to do their jobs. In every administration there are people, in important offices, that have their own individual and political agendas that guide their actions, decisions and relationship with the president. The bigger and more beaucratic the government is, the better they are able to do as they please, put things in motion, and get away with it. As far as us getting out of Iraq, we are. Unfortuneately the process takes time, even if Iraq and the US were in total aggreement that it was time for us to leave (an agreement which does not seem to presently exist), it would take time. It would not happen over night. IMO the problem is not so much our withdrawl from Iraq as is this whole idea of a timetable that many people, especially in the US, seem to be demanding that be written in stone and publized for all to see so people could make plans in accordance with. That is not how the real world works. It may work for the elites and academics, but not on the front line where things happen.

wing2000 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/21/2008 10:37:32 PM)
quote: Repeatedly, in the film, I was struck by the fact that for some reason, the objections people held about what decisions were being made, never seemed to get up to the president in any sort of way. Repeatedly, in the film, I was struck by the apparent fact that departments didn't seem to talk with each other very well. There are two very good reasons for this: 1. Dick Cheney 2. Donald Rumsfeld Together, they repeatedly under mined any person(s) or departments whose views did not match up with their own. Witness what they did to Secretary of State Powell and National Security Adviser Rice (I believe that was covered in the film). They are master bureaucrats and easily manipulated those in the administration with less experience and influence. So yes, I do have some sympathy for President Bush...but not the administration....and in the end, even these two individuals served at the pleasure of the President.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 12:53:18 PM)
The Iraqi government on Monday left little doubt that it favors a withdrawal plan for American combat troops similar to what Senator Barack Obama has proposed, providing Mr. Obama with a potentially powerful political boost on a day he spent in Iraq working to fortify his credibility as a wartime leader. Bush agrees to a time horizon and the Iraqi government has already stated it wants a timetable for a withdrawal plan. so does this mean the boys are FINALLY coming home????

cow451 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 3:47:13 PM)
The Administration's Response to Maliki's Remarks

wing2000 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 7:53:11 PM)
:)

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 9:43:01 PM)
RichLP and cow451, Listening and observing the news tonight, I was struck by how similar Obama's approach to ending our military involvement in Iraq is to the approach people took -the mistakes made after toppling Saddam and triggering the insurency. Obama sounds like he has already made up his mind about Iraq and despite what people on the ground say, if elected, he will pull our troops out of Iraq within 16 months, if not immediately, regardless of conditions (MO). In other words, people thousands of miles away, in the security of Washington DC, people who may or may not have any real knowledge or interest in Iraq and Iraqis, are going to decide the fate of that country and its people, depite what oour people on the ground say. Once again, what a Democrat president/ presidental candidate proposes/ does is praised and hailed as revolutionary, but what a Republican presidential candidate/ president proposes/ does, and has done (though nearly identical) is criticized and condemened out of hand. Talk about a foreign policy that is built upon mistake upon mistake.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 10:06:54 PM)
IN fairness, Leon: I have not watched tonight's news, so I will have to follow up before I can provide an informed response. But I will say that one would have to be astoundingly incompetent to equal the bungling demonstrated by the neocons during the immediate aftermath of (and the planning) the invasion of the sovereign state of Iraq. quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 RichLP and cow451, Listening and observing the news tonight, I was struck by how similar Obama's approach to ending our military involvement in Iraq is to the approach people took -the mistakes made after toppling Saddam and triggering the insurency. Obama sounds like he has already made up his mind about Iraq and despite what people on the ground say, if elected, he will pull our troops out of Iraq within 16 months, if not immediately, regardless of conditions (MO). In other words, people thousands of miles away, in the security of Washington DC, people who may or may not have any real knowledge or interest in Iraq and Iraqis, are going to decide the fate of that country and its people, depite what oour people on the ground say. Once again, what a Democrat president/ presidental candidate proposes/ does is praised and hailed as revolutionary, but what a Republican presidential candidate/ president proposes/ does, and has done (though nearly identical) is criticized and condemened out of hand. Talk about a foreign policy that is built upon mistake upon mistake. quote: e ground say. Once again, what a Democrat president/ presidental candidate proposes/ does is praised and hailed as revolutionary, but what a Republican presidential candidate/ president proposes/ does, and has done (though nearly identical) is criticized and condemened out of hand. Talk about a foreign policy that is built upon mistake upon mista

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 10:24:28 PM)
Let me clarify what my central point is. The Bush administration-Republicans-(the present administration) has been condemned and heavily critized for ignoring the people on the ground in favor of decisions made by people thousands of miles away, of questionable interest and intent, in the safety of Washington DC resulting in death and destruction. The Obama campaign-Democrats-(the next administration as many people have already decided it will be long before a single vote has been cast) are praised and hailed as innovators even as they propose to totally ignore the people on the ground in favor of decisions already made by people thousands of miles away, of questionable interest and intent, which very well result in death and destruction. Do you or don't you, see the similarities of the two approaches? Do you, or don't you, see the double standards many seem to be using to decide and justify who they feel is more qualified to lead this country?

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