RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure

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RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 10:26:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 Let me clarify what my central point is. The Bush administration-Republicans-(the present administration) has been condemned and heavily critized for ignoring the people on the ground in favor of decisions made by people thousands of miles away, of questionable interest and intent, in the safety of Washington DC resulting in death and destruction. The Obama campaign-Democrats-(the next administration as many people have already decided it will be long before a single vote has been cast) are praised and hailed as innovators even as they propose to totally ignore the people on the ground in favor of decisions already made by people thousands of miles away, of questionable interest and intent, which very well result in death and destruction. Do you or don't you, see the similarities of the two approaches? Do you, or don't you, see the double standards many seem to be using to decide and justify who they feel is more qualified to lead this country? Well, a certain guy on the ground, in Iraq, has a similar view - nay, let me borrow George W. Bush's "time horizon" language because IT AIN'T A TIMETABLE (chuckles) - about 2010 being the year US troops should be withdrawn. His last name is al-Maliki.

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 10:46:05 PM)
So what is the real difference between Obama's plan of withdrawl and Bush's and McCain's plan other than the importance of some sort of timetable that many people seem to want written in stone and published for all to see? The only real difference I see is that Bush and McCain are being realistic about the situation and the sense of security for Iraq, that would need to be in place, as we withdraw, and Iraq forces step up. As for Maliki, yes he is on the ground, so is General Patraes. Maliki is up for re-election in Iraq thus he has to play ther game of politics, both for his people and the international community. General Patreas is not. The details on how, and when, our troops leave Iraq should be worked out between the government of Iraq and our generals in Iraq, not by politicans and self-serving individuals thousands of milles away.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 11:09:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 So what is the real difference between Obama's plan of withdrawl and Bush's and McCain's plan other than the importance of some sort of timetable that many people seem to want written in stone and published for all to see? The only real difference I see is that Bush and McCain are being realistic about the situation and the sense of security for Iraq, that would need to be in place, as we withdraw, and Iraq forces step up. As for Maliki, yes he is on the ground, so is General Patraes. Maliki is up for re-election in Iraq thus he has to play ther game of politics, both for his people and the international community. General Patreas is not. The details on how, and when, our troops leave Iraq should be worked out between the government of Iraq and our generals in Iraq, not by politicans and self-serving individuals thousands of milles away. Your error here is that you claim Bush and McCain are on the same page. Bush has practically capitulated to the idea of a timetable. (Bush has also capitulated in North Korea, where he has decided to take that rogue state from the Department of State's list of terrorist states, all the while North Korea refuses to come fully clean with its nuclear activities; and, he has capitulated with Iran - but on this I applaud Bush as he has sent US envoys to meet Iranian counterparts. Better than a foolhardy war, all the more, as Admiral Mike said, we don't need a 3rd when we're fighting 2... Bush 0, Axis of Evil 2; one tie so far.) He may not wish to call it so and thus the preference for the euphemism "time horizon," but for all intents and purposes, Bush has agreed that at least, a general time frame for the withdrawal of American combat troops needs to be established. This is a significant departure from the "stay the course" rhetoric Bush maintained from the moment the insurgency was born. McCain alone now insists on his opposition to a time horizon/timetable, and by doing this he risks going against the wishes of the US-allied Iraqi government. Besides, I do not agree with your assessment that McCain is being realistic and Obama isn't. McCain, not Obama, went to Iraq and paraded through a Baghdad market with the protection of the US military, including choppers flying overhead, and heavily armed and equipped US soldiers as bodyguards. The day after McCain left, there was a bombing in that same market, which killed several Iraqi civilians. McCain insists that he has foreign policy expertise, but he has conflated Shia Iran and Sunni (and Salafi) Al-Qaeda. He has mistaken Afghanistan for Iraq and he has mistakenly said Iraq and Pakistan share a border. McCain insists he will lead us to victory when he does not define what victory is. McCain plays to fearmongering as he repeatedly claims Al-Qaeda will take over Iraq if we leave, which is a ridiculous fantasy because the Al-Qaeda in Iraq is, as I've stated here many times, an offshoot group known as "Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia" with at best loose ties to the real Al-Qaeda; because foreign fighters number in the few thousands; because Sunni and Shiite Iraqis, both insurgent and members of the government forces, hate these foreign fighters and turned on them; and, finally, because to think a few foreign fighters could take over a large country with over 20 million people is logistically impossible. McCain claims Obama would trade a US victory in Iraq for an election victory in America while openly contradicting what the Iraqi leadership wants. McCain was wrong about the desirability of going to war against Iraq. McCain was wrong about taking Iraq being a cakewalk. McCain was wrong about the presence of WMDs. McCain, and those who attack Obama, speak as if Obama will pull out each and every US military staff exactly 16 months from January 20, 2009 if Obama is elected. That is not true. A contingent will be left behind. It will not be a complete and full evacuation; combat troops will go out, but there will be a US military presence. Iraqis want us out. Their leaders want us out. And there are troops who want to come home. In summary, McCain has been wrong on Iraq again and again and again. Why would he be right this time? Does the fact that he was a prisoner of war in Vietnam make him an automatic expert?

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 11:21:00 PM)
So we are to nit-pick what Bush and McCain say, but we are not to nit-pick what Obama ("He who walks on water") says. We are to draw all kinds of assumptions, conclusions, fantasy scenarios from the Bush, McCain, Republican approaches to foreign policy, but we are not to do the same with Democrat approaches to foreign policy especially if their presiedential candidate is named Obama. Why is this?

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 11:29:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 So we are to nit-pick what Bush and McCain say, but we are not to nit-pick what Obama ("He who walks on water") says. We are to draw all kinds of assumptions, conclusions, fantasy scenarios from the Bush, McCain, Republican approaches to foreign policy, but we are not to do the same with Democrat approaches to foreign policy especially if their presiedential candidate is named Obama. Why is this? Leon_Figg3: As my writing on this website has most probably shown you by now, I am very much interested with the Iraq war. McCain keeps making mistakes on Iraq. Obama, at least about Iraq, hasn't made the terrible gaffes McCain has, and this considering McCain insists Obama is not aware of what's really happening in Iraq and that McCain is a foreign policy expert. As for Obama: if you think Obama's getting a free pass, I'll tell you what. Provide links showing terrible gaffes or arguments that Obama really is out of touch with the Iraqi quagmire's status quo. I'll look at them. On that note, I say good night, and invite you to the Election 2008 thread, where in my discussion about John McCain having mistakenly said Iraq borders Pakistan, I have written a post about yet another McCain gaffe, and yes it's about Iraq. Go take a look, because frankly, it convinces me even more that McCain is clueless about Iraq.

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 11:37:04 PM)
You haven't answered my question.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 11:40:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 You haven't answered my question. You want McCain to get a free pass when he demonstrates ignorance about Iraq? Provide links showing Obama gets Iraq wrong on his interviews or public appearances. You haven't refuted ANYTHING I have said in any of our discussions. So you coming with this question is rather odd, considering it's your opinion that Obama gets a free pass. If I'm wrong, show me the evidence, as I've asked you. Good night.

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/22/2008 11:52:12 PM)
Where in my postings have I indicated that I want McCain to get a free pass on Iraq or any other issue? How about some degree of fairness, honesty, and unbiased reporting? How about an unbiased look at the issues and what the candidates truely have to say about them, lapses and mistakes includedl? That is all that I am looking for. I want voters to be able to make some kind of truely informed decision in the best interest of this country and the world. As for refuting what you say, forget it. I know what your game plan is. The game plan is nothing new. You get the opposition to refute what you say, you then totally dismiss or even ignore the response like you are dismissing and ignoring the questions posed to you that you can not seem to answer. You want to know the beauty of my questions? There's no research needed. Just tell me why, in your opinion, we are to thoroughly judge, research, and scrutinize everything about one presidential canidadte and almost nothing, of consequence, about the the other.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/23/2008 12:44:49 PM)
CBS edited the McCain interview I have already mentioned to cover for his gaffe. So much for "fairness, honesty, and unbiased reporting," Leon_Figg3. quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 Where in my postings have I indicated that I want McCain to get a free pass on Iraq or any other issue? How about some degree of fairness, honesty, and unbiased reporting? How about an unbiased look at the issues and what the candidates truely have to say about them, lapses and mistakes includedl? That is all that I am looking for. I want voters to be able to make some kind of truely informed decision in the best interest of this country and the world. As for refuting what you say, forget it. I know what your game plan is. The game plan is nothing new. You get the opposition to refute what you say, you then totally dismiss or even ignore the response like you are dismissing and ignoring the questions posed to you that you can not seem to answer. You want to know the beauty of my questions? There's no research needed. Just tell me why, in your opinion, we are to thoroughly judge, research, and scrutinize everything about one presidential canidadte and almost nothing, of consequence, about the the other.

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/23/2008 1:08:35 PM)
RichLP, Once again it appeas to be time to end our debate because you clearly are missing what I am trying to ask and say in my posts, to say the least, depite my attempts to be as simple and direct as humanly possible. At the very least, we have, once again, taken a thread way off topic. Till our paths cross again.

RichLP -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/23/2008 1:10:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 Till our paths cross again. I'll be here. [;)]

wing2000 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/23/2008 11:11:16 PM)
quote: So what is the real difference between Obama's plan of withdrawl and Bush's and McCain's plan other than the importance of some sort of timetable that many people seem to want written in stone and published for all to see? There is no real difference. Obama's 16 month plan will undoubtedly take longer...and McCain will bring the troops home sooner than 100 years :0 quote: The only real difference I see is that Bush and McCain are being realistic about the situation and the sense of security for Iraq, that would need to be in place, as we withdraw, and Iraq forces step up. In the end, Obama had the most realist position by opposing this unnecessary war from the very begining. It was Bush and company who were the naive idealists.

mapachito13 -> RE: Iraq Leadership Wants Timetable For US Troop Departure (7/24/2008 11:36:24 AM)
Why do we have to make the Iraqis past problems OUR problem for years and years. Our invasion open a Pandora's box of sectarian conflict that Saddam kept in check by his draconian measures a la Tito in Yugoslavia. No conservative can offer a guarantee that even if we are there for 10 more years that this will just go away. With a deadline from us to say that the Iraqis will then have TO STAND ON THEIR OWN AND TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY they will be forced to take action to insure their "security" after we leave. (No dragging of feet.) We have to stop being paternalistic in our thinking and let these people govern themselves; making their own mistakes along the way. And if civil war is the mistake they wish to make. Oh well! It's not like America didn't make that one too!

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