|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/9/2008 9:26:39 AM
|
|
|
YahwehsAngel.Love
Posts: 14
Joined: 12/28/2006
Status: offline
|
Someone asked me the other day how God and Jesus are the same person if God is Jesus' Father. And I was confused as to how to answer them. He wasn't trying to debate with me, he was simply trying to understand so he could be comfortable in proceeding with a relationship with God. Its difficult to explain to someone that they don't need to pick apart Christianity in order to become a Christian when that's the type of person the are. Any suggestions on how to answer this?
_____________________________
I am a hostage to my own humanity
Self detained and forced to live in this mess I’ve made
And all I’m asking is for You to do what You can with me
But I can’t ask You to give what You already gave
-Relient K
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/9/2008 9:29:33 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Three, yet One.
One, yet three.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/9/2008 10:40:56 AM
|
|
|
YahwehsAngel.Love
Posts: 14
Joined: 12/28/2006
Status: offline
|
Thanks but can you expand?
_____________________________
I am a hostage to my own humanity
Self detained and forced to live in this mess I’ve made
And all I’m asking is for You to do what You can with me
But I can’t ask You to give what You already gave
-Relient K
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/9/2008 11:00:03 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6348
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: YahwehsAngel.Love
Thanks but can you expand?
Here is a great piece that answers your question: HERE
Great site to study from.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/9/2008 11:31:49 AM
|
|
|
YahwehsAngel.Love
Posts: 14
Joined: 12/28/2006
Status: offline
|
WOW. Thank you!
_____________________________
I am a hostage to my own humanity
Self detained and forced to live in this mess I’ve made
And all I’m asking is for You to do what You can with me
But I can’t ask You to give what You already gave
-Relient K
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/9/2008 3:05:32 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4164
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
|
All those explainations are way too greek based to accurately capture the idea of a 3 in 1 God. It does not need to be that complex. HE is eternally one. He is eternally 3. At the same time in the same way. It does not fit our logic system and that is ok.
Leave it at that.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/10/2008 11:04:19 AM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 1:3
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/10/2008 2:40:00 PM
|
|
|
figmentPez
Posts: 2120
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: VJDTropical
This may help <SNIP link that foolishly defines the Son as proceeding from the Father, but neglects His status as eternally begotten>
See this before seeing the next one <SNIP off-topic link about tripartite man>
The other one <SNIP heretical teachings about "trinity">
Hope I helped
Sadly, you most certainly did not help, and have contributed to the harm done to Christianity by false teaching about the nature of God.
First, let me say that your second link, the one about a "tripartite man" is completely off topic. Even IF man is of three parts (and not two, one or many more), that has nothing to do with God's triune nature. There is no part of a man that is begotten of another part. My flesh cannot say that it is the son of my soul or spirit, as the Son can truly say that He is the son of the Father. God's triune nature is not related to man's various parts.
Next, lets deal with the false analogies put forth in your third link:
Matter: Your link says "it takes on different forms or manifestations under different conditions." This is completely unlike God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not different forms or manifestations of God. In fact, trinitarian doctrine is completely opposed to "modalism" which teaches such heresy. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are eternal. God has always existed as these three, and always will exist as these three. Before there was anything in creation to manifest to, God was already Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God does not change. It is wrong to compare the unchaging God's eternal triunity to the ability of matter to shift between states. (Not only that, but matter has more than three states anyway. Plasma and Bose-Einstein Condensate are two more.)
Light: The link says "Light that appears as white, the purest of all, does not exist by itself... a manifestation of three colors in one." However, a person cannot look at blue light and know what white light is, but it is possible to know the Father by seeing the Son. The Son is the very image of the Father, not just a fraction that fails to present the whole of God.
Space: Link says that "and yet that point is one [dimension]" Regardless of any theological accuracy, this wrong from a scientific standpoint. A point has no dimensionality. A line is a single dimension. As to theological accuracy, I think it is foolish to claim that the three dimensions of our world somehow represent God. Each person of the trinity is the whole of God, and not a limited one-dimensional caricature.
Time: This is another analogy that lends itself more to modalism than trinitarian doctrine. God is not different in the past that He will be in the future. God is who was and is and is to come. This is true of each person of the Godhead. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are
unchanging, and are not like time which is constantly shifting.
Lastly, when the article finally gets to talking directly about God, it makes some horrendously wrong statements:
Of Jesus Christ it says "He was both "Son of God," an expression of God as contained in human form," Whoah! This is a completely wrong definition of what it means to be the Son of God! The Son of God is God begotten of God, and has nothing to do with His humanity! The Son of God was the Son of God before creation existed. Furthermore, the article claims that humans will have a "divine form". Men will NOT become gods!!!
It also refers to the Holy Spirit as a "part" of God, which is rather inaccurate, and defines Him by His role in relation to humanity, instead of as His identity as God and His relationship within the trinity. It also claims that the Father is the only part of God that is "transcendent, infinite and beyond our understanding," but that is true of all three persons of the trinity.
The first link you had is better than the other two, but is still very poor. It fails to relate the eternal nature of the Son being begotten of the Father, and also fails to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. It also goes outside of Biblical teaching in it's statements about the trinity acting in creation.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/13/2008 12:04:42 PM
|
|
|
GHitch
Posts: 273
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline
|
The answer is actually way simple. Yes the nature of the Trinity answers are good but there's another thing that needs to be said:
If Jesus is the Son of God then he necessarily shares the same nature. Just like your son is human.
In this case divine nature. Jesus is of course "only begotten" son. Greek and lots of theology come in in trying to define begotten.
It is monogenēs - single, unique, only - iow, there's only one begotten son in that sense of sharing the full divine nature.
Adam and his descendants, made in God's image, or the new creation Christians - sons as per the adoption etc. do not hold the same full divine nature although begotten of him through the Word. We are mere partakers of the divine nature (2Pe 1:4) through the Word, not fully divine as Christ.
Hope that helps.
_____________________________
"The formation within geological time of a human body, by the laws of physics..., starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field, is as unlikely as the separation by chance of the atmosphere into its components." Kurt Godel
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/14/2008 5:06:49 PM
|
|
|
VJDTropical
Posts: 39
Joined: 2/4/2008
Status: offline
|
I agree but I'm only a teenager so I'm not good at this and I'm still growing ... Thank you anyways
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/15/2008 11:26:31 AM
|
|
|
loco79
Posts: 90
Joined: 6/18/2008
Status: offline
|
In Isa 43:10 God tells us who he is “I am he” and in verse 15 he follows by saying that he is the lord.
Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:15
I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
In John the people ask Jesus who he is and says twice that his “I am he,” which is referring to being God
Jn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins
Jn 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
To Give further testament to who he was, Jesus says that Abraham was happy to see him(God), and since he was before Abraham he states “I am.”
Jn 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Jn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
There is much more to this but I want to try to keep it short and to the point. I hope that this helps
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/22/2008 8:43:02 PM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: YahwehsAngel.Love
Someone asked me the other day how God and Jesus are the same person if God is Jesus' Father. And I was confused as to how to answer them. He wasn't trying to debate with me, he was simply trying to understand so he could be comfortable in proceeding with a relationship with God. Its difficult to explain to someone that they don't need to pick apart Christianity in order to become a Christian when that's the type of person the are. Any suggestions on how to answer this?
My suggestion is that you tell the truth and let them sort it out. Say this, "For God so loved the world He killed His only begotten son to save His own creation from His own wrath". If they don't like it, they can lump it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/22/2008 9:14:13 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
quote:
My suggestion is that you tell the truth and let them sort it out. Say this, "For God so loved the world He killed His only begotten son to save His own creation from His own wrath". If they don't like it, they can lump it.
I think I would rephrase the statement a little;
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God killed no one but He did allow it to occur.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/22/2008 9:55:59 PM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
My suggestion is that you tell the truth and let them sort it out. Say this, "For God so loved the world He killed His only begotten son to save His own creation from His own wrath". If they don't like it, they can lump it.
I think I would rephrase the statement a little;
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God killed no one but He did allow it to occur.
Bob
I want to accept that assessment, Bob, if I may call you Bob. But I have trouble with the whole omniscience thing. The concept of an all knowing entity dictates, to me at least, that He did more than allow it, unless you're arguing that God is not omniscient and couldn't know what would happen when He sent His son.
This means, again to me, that He didn't just allow it, but He planned it. It's bad enough if He only allowed it if you ask me because a person who allows my son's death to happen is going to have a serious problem on their hands.
Tell you what, I'll change it so we can move on. "God gave His own son to save His own creation from His own wrath." Does that work?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/22/2008 11:36:36 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
quote:
This means, again to me, that He didn't just allow it, but He planned it. It's bad enough if He only allowed it if you ask me because a person who allows my son's death to happen is going to have a serious problem on their hands.
Well of course God allowed it…don’t you understand, it was God Himself on that cross. It was God in the flesh that was the ultimate sacrifice. That sacrifice in the highest order was the only way that the sins of mankind could be washed away. Nothing else would suffice. Jesus Christ was the visible image of the invisible God; "Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation." (Col 1:15)
So you are telling me that if the death of your son would wash away the sins of mankind that you would not be willing to let that event happen?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/23/2008 12:02:13 AM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
This means, again to me, that He didn't just allow it, but He planned it. It's bad enough if He only allowed it if you ask me because a person who allows my son's death to happen is going to have a serious problem on their hands.
Well of course God allowed it…don’t you understand, it was God Himself on that cross. It was God in the flesh that was the ultimate sacrifice. That sacrifice in the highest order was the only way that the sins of mankind could be washed away. Nothing else would suffice. Jesus Christ was the visible image of the invisible God; "Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation." (Col 1:15)
So you are telling me that if the death of your son would wash away the sins of mankind that you would not be willing to let that event happen?
Bob
If it actually would wash ALL the sins of the world away, I'd have to think about it. My first inclination is to say, no absolutely not, but that is based on the assumption that no such thing is possible. I mean if God did it and people just kept sinning anyway, I say it's not worth it to lose my son.
But that's fine, how 'bout if I change it again to reflect the new information you've provided and make it so we can move on.
God killed Himself on the cross to save His own creation from His own wrath.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/23/2008 12:17:13 AM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Hi wayward...
Well of course the concept of your son dying for mankind is hypothetical because the whole ideal is that the sacrifice had to be of a totally sinless being and Christ was the only one that could meet that requirement.
I would still disagree with you wording because it lack dignity and honor to the Father. I would agree that God allowed Himself in the flesh to be sacrificed, in order to wash away the sins of those who would accept His Son as their redeemer.
By the way…I’m really glad that you would reconsider the concept of your son or self in order to save the elect of the world. It shows that God is in your heart.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/23/2008 3:15:56 AM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi wayward...
Well of course the concept of your son dying for mankind is hypothetical because the whole ideal is that the sacrifice had to be of a totally sinless being and Christ was the only one that could meet that requirement.
Well, I don't want to go down the whole "human sacrifice" road right now.
quote:
I would still disagree with you wording because it lack dignity and honor to the Father.
Perhaps it does lack such dignity, and for that I apologize, but does it lack truth? Have I misunderstood on some significant level?
quote:
I would agree that God allowed Himself in the flesh to be sacrificed, in order to wash away the sins of those who would accept His Son as their redeemer.
I just can't stop myself from thinking the creator of the universe could have thought of something a little more, well creative, and less painful. If the precise motion of planets and such is God's doing, then why are we all random and willy nilly down here just doing what we want? Why aren't we precisely ordered and perfect like the rest of His creation?
quote:
By the way…I’m really glad that you would reconsider the concept of your son or self in order to save the elect of the world.
What do you mean by "elect" in this context? I'm sorry. I really don't understand. What I would consider giving my life or the life of my son for is the instant washing away of all pain, suffering, sin, and evil on the earth, for ALL people.
Like I said though, if the creator of the Universe went to the trouble of magically sending an earthly embodiment of Himself to die on a cross in order to wash away the sins of those who would accept His son as their redeemer, and 2000+ years later the message has yet to reach the "four" corners of the earth and fewer than one third of His creation has elected to "accept His son as their redeemer", I'm not convinced.
I mean, I don't know about you but if I'm the creator of the universe, and I'm about to make myself into a human and go get crucified, I'm gonna' make sure A LOT of people see it. It was worth it the last time He revealed Himself to make sure ALL the Jews were there at Mt Sinai, but why not this time? What's the big secret? Why bother with the cross at all? Why not just do it all magically if you have magical powers? What's with all the poetry and riddles and resurrection and such??
quote:
It shows that God is in your heart.
Perhaps
< Message edited by wayward1 -- 7/23/2008 3:34:43 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/23/2008 4:31:02 AM
|
|
|
ChristianRink
Posts: 22
Joined: 7/23/2008
Status: offline
|
To know the Only One True Living God, you must go through Jesus Christ.
Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me".
To say, God is the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit....I believe is false!
Jesus also says "you must be Born Again"
so inorder to know who the Savior of the World is....we must enter by the narrow gate, The Heart!
Accept Jesus Christ into your heart as your Savior............. and then what?
Repent from within until something happens.......why?
Because we must be Born Again?
Why?
Because our hearts are filthy before God, that's why He gives you a heart of flesh and a spirit of truth...
Why?
So that the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Salvation can be preached to all the world.... The Father rises up Prophets, preachers, healers to go out and Preach and Act out The Kingdom of Heaven IN Jesus Name...
To let the WORLD KNOW that there is Only One True God of Creation, Salvation, Healing and Eternal Life!
You can only Spiritually have a relationship if you seriously repent and seek Jesus Christ! He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings! and He is Coming SOON :) Come Lord Jesus!!!!!!!!!!
_____________________________
http://www.myspace.com/christianx326x
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/24/2008 12:33:44 PM
|
|
|
Piff.
Posts: 35
Joined: 7/24/2008
Status: offline
|
I just can't stop myself from thinking the creator of the universe could have thought of something a little more, well creative, and less painful. If the precise motion of planets and such is God's doing, then why are we all random and willy nilly down here just doing what we want? Why aren't we precisely ordered and perfect like the rest of His creation?
Because God gave us the gift of free agency. We are free to choose to either worship and obey him or not.
God cannot be in the presence of sin, as we learn in the scriptures and although he was not in control of Adam and Eve in the garden, he prepared a way for us to be reconciled back to him. The sacrficie of Jesus is not only one of the most beautiful acts of love, but also a fullfillment of the Law and prophecy that had come before him.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/24/2008 11:52:18 PM
|
|
|
Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: YahwehsAngel.Love
Someone asked me the other day how God and Jesus are the same person if God is Jesus' Father. And I was confused as to how to answer them. He wasn't trying to debate with me, he was simply trying to understand so he could be comfortable in proceeding with a relationship with God. Its difficult to explain to someone that they don't need to pick apart Christianity in order to become a Christian when that's the type of person the are. Any suggestions on how to answer this?
That's why we have a trinity. 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/25/2008 12:02:07 AM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piff.
Because God gave us the gift of free agency. We are free to choose to either worship and obey him or not.
God cannot be in the presence of sin
Can't be in the presence of sin, then who was He fighting all those OT wars against? Were they not sinners?
quote:
as we learn in the scriptures and although he was not in control of Adam and Eve in the garden
So, it's decided then, He is not omniscient or omnipotent.
quote:
The sacrficie of Jesus is not only one of the most beautiful acts of love
I don't know. It still just seems kind of "low stakes" to me. If Jesus is the earthly embodiment of God anyway, and isn't actually going to die but rather simply return to His place in Heaven, then what's the big deal about sacrificing him.
It almost seems like one of those sales where they mark the prices up 25% right before the big 25% off sale. What did God lose? It was God on the cross and God is still around so I mean, I just don't get it.
quote:
, but also a fullfillment of the Law and prophecy that had come before him.
So is it at least settled that there's nothing wrong about my assessment that God killed Himself on the cross to save His own creation from His own wrath?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/25/2008 11:59:36 AM
|
|
|
Piff.
Posts: 35
Joined: 7/24/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Can't be in the presence of sin, then who was He fighting all those OT wars against? Were they not sinners?
I'm talking about the afterlife, not this temporal world. The ultimate goal is to return to God in heaven and we cannot do such as a sinner.
quote:
So, it's decided then, He is not omniscient or omnipotent.
Haha, because that's what I said. As if somehow God allowing man to decide matters for himself somehow negates the fact that God has power over all things. What good would it do for God to create man and then force him to follow and obey?
quote:
I don't know. It still just seems kind of "low stakes" to me. If Jesus is the earthly embodiment of God anyway, and isn't actually going to die but rather simply return to His place in Heaven, then what's the big deal about sacrificing him.
It almost seems like one of those sales where they mark the prices up 25% right before the big 25% off sale. What did God lose? It was God on the cross and God is still around so I mean, I just don't get it.
It is my belief that Jesus and God are two distinct personages, as opposed to Heavenly Father being the "Earthly embodiment of God" as you put it.
The sacrifice was made in the similitude of the sacrifice made by Moses on behalf of himself and his people to God. Are you familiar with this?
quote:
So is it at least settled that there's nothing wrong about my assessment that God killed Himself on the cross to save His own creation from His own wrath?
Actually that's kind of tweaking the concept. I don't know if the material you've been reading have made such suggestions or if you truly have come to this assessment on your own.
Jesus Christ was crucified so that the new convenant between God and man might come to fruition. The new covenant being that the burden of trying to live "perfect" lives according to the Law of Moses might be relieved from us and that we might have a way back to God despite our iniquities.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: How is Jesus God if God is Jesus' Father? - 7/25/2008 12:11:04 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
quote:
It is my belief that Jesus and God are two distinct personages, as opposed to Heavenly Father being the "Earthly embodiment of God" as you put it.
Piff...how do you explain this scripture?
Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
