RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (Full Version)

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jfwink -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 4:22:30 PM)

Todd, you should really edit the title of this thread. The title is not true. I know that Gramm is on the McCain "team," but of course McCain didn't call those stuggling with the economy whiners. To have a title so blatanly incorrect makes you seem disingenuous.



jfwink -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 4:26:13 PM)

RC is correct that 5.5% unemployment is not that bad. Since the early 90s, if memory serves me correctly, the unemployment rate has fluctated between 4-7%. There are valid reasons to say the economy isn't so great right now, but by looking at want adds in my local paper, I wouldn't count unemployment as one of them.



GroupW -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 4:39:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW
No problem. There's no official definition, but here goes a stab at it:

Increases in the unemployment rate and jobless claim outside the bounds of normal volatility and sufficient to establish a trend.


The Official "Full employment rate" is based on an unemployment rate of between 4.5 and 5 % depending on circumstances. It is presently at 5.5& which if it wasn't an election year the news media and everone else (read demokrats) would be bragging about.

There is really a lot of unsubstantiated "Whining" going on about the economy, I have been through 2 mafor recessions one of them with 20% inflation and an oil embargo; and we ain't even close at the present.

Thanks
RC


There's really no "official" full employment rate. We've made some educated guesses before though, and it appears to be in that range. Noone really knows what it actually is for sure. Anecdotally, there is some evidence that could lead one to think it's in the very low 4% range, possibly lower. Recent data surrounding the so-called "Phillips Curve" have been inconclusive, and the full employment rate & the Phillips relationship have come under some serious skepticism. The data generally supported the concept in the 50's and 60's but the correlation broke down in later years.

Overall, the recent US recessions have been as follows:
73-75: A bad one with significant increases in inflation (Unemployment peaked at 8.5%, inflation at about 10.3%)
80-82: Very bad one - (Unemployment peaked at 9.7%, inflation though declined to 5.5% from 8.9%.)
90-91: Moderate ((Unemployment peaked at 7.5%, inflation though declined into the 2% range)
'01-02: A weenie recession - very mild. (Unemployment peaked at 6%, inflation remained in the 1-2% range)

Your point is accurate - on the scale of recesssions past, the current economy is still quite good. Inflation is up due to some price shocks in commodities. Not good, but manageable. Unemployment is up, but not alarmingly so. All that can change very quickly, but for the time being folks do seem intent on focusing on the negative.

BT



rcjames -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 4:42:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW
There's really no "official" full employment rate. We've made some educated guesses before though, and it appears to be in that range. Noone really knows what it actually is for sure. Anecdotally, there is some evidence that could lead one to think it's in the very low 4% range, possibly lower. Recent data surrounding the so-called "Phillips Curve" have been inconclusive, and the full employment rate & the Phillips relationship have come under some serious skepticism. The data generally supported the concept in the 50's and 60's but the correlation broke down in later years.

Overall, the recent US recessions have been as follows:
73-75: A bad one with significant increases in inflation (Unemployment peaked at 8.5%, inflation at about 10.3%)
80-82: Very bad one - (Unemployment peaked at 9.7%, inflation though declined to 5.5% from 8.9%.)
90-91: Moderate ((Unemployment peaked at 7.5%, inflation though declined into the 2% range)
'01-02: A weenie recession - very mild. (Unemployment peaked at 6%, inflation remained in the 1-2% range)

Your point is accurate - on the scale of recesssions past, the current economy is still quite good. Inflation is up due to some price shocks in commodities. Not good, but manageable. Unemployment is up, but not alarmingly so. All that can change very quickly, but for the time being folks do seem intent on focusing on the negative.

BT


Good research, personally the 73-75 one was the most difficult to survive.

Thanks
RC



GroupW -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 4:43:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jfwink

RC is correct that 5.5% unemployment is not that bad. Since the early 90s, if memory serves me correctly, the unemployment rate has fluctated between 4-7%. There are valid reasons to say the economy isn't so great right now, but by looking at want adds in my local paper, I wouldn't count unemployment as one of them.


I'd agree - in my prior post I had intended only to point out that there are the official definitions of "recession" but others are possible. We entered a sustained period of job loss several months back, so the concept of a jobs recession is applicable. With jobs being lost and the continuing mortgage crisis, there are reasons people feel fearful.

That being said - RC is correct in that the fears do seem overblown given the current economic context though.
BT



GroupW -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 4:46:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Good research, personally the 73-75 one was the most difficult to survive.

Thanks
RC


As a banker looking for work in '85, '87, and '93, the 80's and 91-92 real estate crises were the toughest on me.

As Yogi Berra said, "Looks like deja vu all over again." (I gotta get out of this real estate gig.)



todd_t -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 5:13:21 PM)

quote:

Todd, you should really edit the title of this thread. The title is not true. I know that Gramm is on the McCain "team," but of course McCain didn't call those stuggling with the economy whiners.


I know. I just don't how to edit the thread title.



GroupW -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/11/2008 5:17:34 PM)

There's a thread for questions & problems. I bet you could post over there and get an answer fairly quickly.



cow451 -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/12/2008 11:55:37 AM)

Gramm's comments came off as elitist IGMS (I Got Mine Syndrome). The economy is an issue that can swing an election. McLobby is in a tight race and cannot afford many of these blunders among staff. Glad he reacted quickly.



bzirk -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/12/2008 1:51:58 PM)

While I agree that many of us (Americans) are fat and sassy, and too many tend to complain if they can't buy that $50,000 truck, the high prices at the gas pump and grocery store are not about lack of confidence. Plus, a decent unemployment rate is not all there is to determining the health of the economy. Income levels and levels of inflation are very real factors as well. Does anyone disgaree that inflation is a big problem?

Several things I find disturbing about the present economy: the amount of debt that we have incurred individually, the amount of debt we've incurred as a nation, the very real decline of the dollar brought on in great part by debt, and last but certainly not least, the entitlement mentality that is becoming more entrenched in Americans' thinking.

As for politics, frankly, I'm underwhelmed by both political parties. Come November I have the choice between socialism and socialism lite. Oh, I'm going to hold my nose and vote, but I'm disgusted with the choices.



rlj -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/12/2008 4:37:54 PM)

quote:

Income levels and levels of inflation are very real factors as well. Does anyone disgaree that inflation is a big problem?


YES.



wing2000 -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/12/2008 5:12:59 PM)

quote:


Several things I find disturbing about the present economy: the amount of debt that we have incurred individually, the amount of debt we've incurred as a nation, the very real decline of the dollar brought on in great part by debt, and last but certainly not least, the entitlement mentality that is becoming more entrenched in Americans' thinking.


...yes indebtedness and the false sense of wealth caused by over inflated home values.



bzirk -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/12/2008 5:26:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rlj

quote:

Income levels and levels of inflation are very real factors as well. Does anyone disgaree that inflation is a big problem?


YES.


Please elaborate.

Thanks.



rlj -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/12/2008 8:00:44 PM)

quote:

Please elaborate.


Where I'm at wages haven't kept pace with inflation. I have gotten a 2% wage hike a year for the last 7 years (which is excellent and unheard of outside of a union government job where I'm at) and this doesn't come close to offsetting my own increases for things I have to have- gas, food and utilities. I could care less how much a new big screen TV costs compared to 3 years ago or a new computer or anything else for that matter my income goes into simply keeping a roof over my head and food on the table now. Grocery bill has gone up about $20 a week average, electric bill has stayed same but only after going to all low watt mercury lights, it consistently costs us over twice as much to put gas in the cars and now that we're moving I get to experience the natural gas bills that have effectively gone up about 250% since 2003. I don't care about inflation this, spending habits that, average income, median income. The things that are skyrocketing are the things that many Americans have to have and can't afford to do without. I know that you are very knowledgeable on how medical expenses hit people. Oh yeah and tax increases. There are far more than just federal taxes and local taxes of every type keep skyrocketing to compensate for the things I've mentioned. (Fuel for the govenrment owned vehicles, the school buses, heating the schools, fixing the roads, etc. )

/rant on
I think it's pretty funny though how a bunch of non-college educated, lazy lying stiffs were somehow able to pull off a zillion fast ones and lie to all of those college educated bankers and how those brilliant CEO's of those mortgage companies who were awarded all of those millions in options and such for their excellent jobs of making their books look good are tanking now. That's pretty pathetic blaming it on the stiffs they loaned to.

Stupid, Lazy, Uneducated WHINING Stiffs 1

Rich, College Educated, Brilliant and Worth Millions and Millions and Millions.... 0

/rant off

It isn't rocket science. You can't increase prices on essentials with the speed that it happened and not expect what we're getting. One can read all the data, go through all the college stuff but it's just common sense, so I'll say it again:

/rant on
Stupid, Lazy, Uneducated WHINING Stiffs 1

Rich, College Educated, Brilliant and Worth Millions and Millions and Millions.... 0
/rant off



bzirk -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/12/2008 8:03:39 PM)

Roger,

I think you and I and are somewhat on the same page. I thought you disgareed with what I was saying. Guess I misunderstood.



rlj -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/12/2008 10:42:26 PM)

What you said was so brilliant that I could add nothing but the yes.



ljmac -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/14/2008 5:31:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rlj

quote:

Way to try to smear a war hero, Todd.


I missed the part about smearing the war hero. Where at in the OP's link are the swift boat guys mentioned?


The swift boat heroes were with Kerry in Vietnam. Todd was not with McCain or Gramm.



ljmac -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/14/2008 5:41:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

quote:

Way to try to smear a war hero, Todd.


a) I apologized for leaping before I looked on the Gramm comment, and; b) McCain's war record in no way earns him a free pass on criticism of his politics, statements, or voting record. Or at least not in my mind.


You're still leaping. Like McCain never said Americans were whiners, I never said he deserves a "free pass." But guys like McCain deserve something for their sacrafice, which in his case was tremendous. Did you ever take a look at his posture? He can't hold his arms right. That's from the beating he took. They deserve our gratitude. There ought to be a little restraint. You were way to anxious to damage him.



its_GO_time -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/14/2008 10:14:41 PM)

Gramm's comment is a perfect example of why there should be term limits, as well as eviction from anywhere within 100 miles of Washington DC, thereafter. The guards will escort them to the proper distance from the Beltway.
I doubt if ol' Phil gets out of the car to pump his own gas, pick up a gallon of $4 milk, or a dozen $3 eggs. I remember they asked Steve Forbes, questions like these, when he ran for pres., and suprisingly got them right.
Most of these guys, be they liberal, or conservative, are what Michael Savage calls "empty suits". Never have gotten their fingers dirty(from working, at least), never made a payroll, never struggled to do anything, only waiting for the next special interest group to leave a bag of money in their freezer.
I agree with Jack Nicholson's line in the movie 'Batman': "This town needs an enema!"



cow451 -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/17/2008 2:52:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: its_GO_time

I agree with Jack Nicholson's line in the movie 'Batman': "This town needs an enema!"

ROFLOL! Preferably with cold water.



todd_t -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/18/2008 8:57:52 PM)

FYI: Phil Gramm has just resigned from the McCain campaign as a chief advisor.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25742187/



its_GO_time -> RE: McCain Calls Those Struggling With Economy "Whiners" (7/21/2008 6:40:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

FYI: Phil Gramm has just resigned from the McCain campaign as a chief advisor.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25742187/


Good. Maybe he'll have time to look out the window of his limo, and see that everyone is not an advisor to one of the largest banks in the world(UBS).



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