We need to be civilized (Full Version)

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Bettawrekonize -> We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 12:30:55 AM)

I've been reading some things that I find disturbing.

quote:

So far today, I have received 39 pieces of personal ... mail ... Four of them have included death threats


http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
Link

I do not know if Myers is telling the truth or not, but the point is that we do NOT attack the naturalistic monopoly on though (in public schools and other public forums) with death threats or violence. We do need to be proactive but we also need to be civilized.

quote:

Original: DaveScot
It’s just a matter of time before someone with a terminal disease, a month left to live, decides he hasn’t got anything to lose by taking out Myers along with him.


Louisiana - what’s the big deal?

These kinds of ideas are NOT acceptable and while DaveScot may not wish harm on Myers, there could be crazy people out there that might get bad ideas from him and do something stupid. This kind of behavior from DaveScot is NOT acceptable and it is not how we should go about attacking the naturalistic monopoly on thought in public forums. Again, we need to be proactive, but we need to be civilized as well.



Bettawrekonize -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 12:46:02 AM)

Though I seem to be banned from uncommondescent (for no apparent reason) I hope the moderators there read this.



Carico -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 9:25:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize

I've been reading some things that I find disturbing.

quote:

So far today, I have received 39 pieces of personal ... mail ... Four of them have included death threats


http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

I do not know if Myers is telling the truth or not, but the point is that we do NOT attack the naturalistic monopoly on though (in public schools and other public forums) with death threats or violence. We do need to be proactive but we also need to be civilized.

quote:

Original: DaveScot
It’s just a matter of time before someone with a terminal disease, a month left to live, decides he hasn’t got anything to lose by taking out Myers along with him.


Louisiana - what’s the big deal?

These kinds of ideas are NOT acceptable and while DaveScot may not wish harm on Myers, there could be crazy people out there that might get bad ideas from him and do something stupid. This kind of behavior from DaveScot is NOT acceptable and it is not how we should go about attacking the naturalistic monopoly on thought in public forums. Again, we need to be proactive, but we need to be civilized as well.


And part of being civilized isn't degrading or devaluing human life to the level of wild animals. It just gives people permission to act like animals. So your statement is an oxymoron.

It seems to be a pandemic today that people don't think they should be held accountable for their behavior. But the fact is, that actions have consequences. When people take pride in Christ bashing, they reap what they sow.



Bettawrekonize -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 11:06:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
And part of being civilized isn't degrading or devaluing human life to the level of wild animals. It just gives people permission to act like animals. So your statement is an oxymoron.

It seems to be a pandemic today that people don't think they should be held accountable for their behavior. But the fact is, that actions have consequences. When people take pride in Christ bashing, they reap what they sow.


I don't see anything hypocritical about asking Christians & Catholics, Creationists, ID advocates, and critics of evolution to act in a civilized manner. If we are to criticize their behavior if they act in an uncivilized or unfair manner it doesn't make sense for us to respond by acting in an uncivilized manner. We should set a good example for them and show them how to behave, we shouldn't encourage them to behave in a civilized and fair manner and then turn around and act uncivilized ourselves.



Carico -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 11:13:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
And part of being civilized isn't degrading or devaluing human life to the level of wild animals. It just gives people permission to act like animals. So your statement is an oxymoron.

It seems to be a pandemic today that people don't think they should be held accountable for their behavior. But the fact is, that actions have consequences. When people take pride in Christ bashing, they reap what they sow.


I don't see anything hypocritical about asking Christians & Catholics, Creationists, ID advocates, and critics of evolution to act in a civilized manner. If we are to criticize their behavior if they act in an uncivilized or unfair manner it doesn't make sense for us to respond by acting in an uncivilized manner. We should set a good example for them and show them how to behave, we shouldn't encourage them to behave in a civilized and fair manner and then turn around and act uncivilized ourselves.


We can hardly be civilized if we're no better than animals, can we? [;)] So your question is a contradiction. [;)]



Bettawrekonize -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 11:21:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
We can hardly be civilized if we're no better than animals, can we? [;)] So your question is a contradiction. [;)]


So are you suggesting that Christians should act uncivilized?



Method -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 11:24:34 AM)

Thanks for the post, Betta. Unfortunately there are nutjobs in every crowd. I, for one, do not judge christians by the actions of these very disturbed people. I grew up in the church and my entire extended family are believers. These threats against PZ are an anamoly in an otherwise very proud and very responsible group of people.

PZ does like to play the victim while being as provocative as possible. You reap what you sow. It's a bit like my kids. One will tease the other to the point that fists start flying. Then they act hurt and wounded like they didn't see it coming. PZ is acting in a similar manner.



Carico -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 11:30:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
We can hardly be civilized if we're no better than animals, can we? [;)] So your question is a contradiction. [;)]


So are you suggesting that Christians should act uncivilized?


If we are civilized then that proves evolution wrong. And since many Christians are civilized, then evolution is already proven wrong. [;)]

But you first have to know what civilized is which is nothing more than knowing the difference between good and evil which most people don't know. Jesus said; "Hate what is evil and cling to what is good." That means punishing the wicked and edifying the good. So until people know what wicked is, they can't know what being civilized is. that's why we need God. And God punishes those who blaspheme him and his creation. He also tells us that actions have consequences. So only those who know and believe god can know the difference between good and evil to be civilized. [;)]

So remember this; 1 Corinthians 2;15, "The spiritual man makes judgments about all things. But he himself is not subject to any man's judgment. For who has known the mind of the Lord to instruct him?" Certainly not unbelievers who claim that God doesn't exist.[;)] So until they know God, they won't know the strong reactions that blaphemying God has in those who love him. Christ's actions at the temple are one such example.[;)]



hellohellohi -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 11:34:09 AM)

Hmm, while it may be the definition of civilization that its members must at some point "agree to disagree," Carico may have a point, if he is implying this, that Christians may take issue with the idea that we can assent in any way to people denying the truth, as we regard the truth as absolute. Therefore, is it not the call of a Christian to occasionally defy propriety?

I do not know whether this reasoning is sound, but it seems so to me, and I would just like to raise the question to any interested.



hellohellohi -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 11:36:35 AM)

quote:

That means punishing the wicked and edifying the good. So until people know what wicked is, they can't know what being civilized is. that's why we need God. And God punishes those who blaspheme him and his creation. He also tells us that actions have consequences. So only those who know and believe god can know the difference between good and evil to be civilized.


However, wasn't it true that Adam knew God and therfore existed righteously even before he tasted of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? (that was a lot of "ofs")



Bettawrekonize -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 11:48:43 AM)

Carico, you didn't answer my question.



Bettawrekonize -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 12:24:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
But you first have to know what civilized is which is nothing more than knowing the difference between good and evil which most people don't know.


In your opinion, do death threats constitute civilized behavior?



Method -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 12:31:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellohellohi

Hmm, while it may be the definition of civilization that its members must at some point "agree to disagree," Carico may have a point, if he is implying this, that Christians may take issue with the idea that we can assent in any way to people denying the truth, as we regard the truth as absolute. Therefore, is it not the call of a Christian to occasionally defy propriety?


I think there is a difference between adamantly defending your beliefs and sending death threats. There is certainly room for people to strongly defend their beliefs without threatening the health of others, even if it is a hollow threat.



hellohellohi -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 2:50:54 PM)

quote:

I think there is a difference between adamantly defending your beliefs and sending death threats.


Yes. Definitely. I think Carico and others' approach may be "no apologies," tho. I was just trying to offer a better way to approach this notion of throwing out civility when it seems that civilization has conspired against truth, which I can imagine hypothetically at the least. I suggest simply drawing the line at refusing to be "okay" with disagreement, which probably entails being annoying in one's persistance to evangelize or talk. However, well before it comes to death threats, a Christian ought to realize when it is time to "shake the dust of one's sandals" and leave town.



Carico -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 3:13:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
But you first have to know what civilized is which is nothing more than knowing the difference between good and evil which most people don't know.


In your opinion, do death threats constitute civilized behavior?


Not in the least. And no true Christian would willfully disobey Jesus by doing so. I'm simply making the point that if you play with fire, you'll be burned, either on this earth or throughout eternity. So evolutionists need to be sensitive as well to what their remarks do to God and Christians and that what they say will come back to them one way or another.



hellohellohi -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 3:20:13 PM)

quote:

Not in the least. And no true Christians would willfully disobey Jesus by doing so. I'm simply making the point that if you play with fire, you'll be burned, either on this earth or throughout eternity. So evolutionists need to be sensitive as well to what their remarks do to God and Christians


Honest, harsh, but fair, I say. Except, getting burned on this earth for sin amounts to "karma," which I for one don't believe in.



evry1needsgod -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 5:02:33 PM)

quote:

In your opinion, do death threats constitute civilized behavior?


This will sound a bit odd, but it actually does. IF there were no death threats against Adolf Hitler, civilization as we know it might not even exist. If a jihadist threatens to nuke my country, it is most certainly civilized behavior to threaten him back, or even act upon that threat to ensure civilized behavior in your country. If a robber enters my house demanding something, I will most certainly threaten their life with the pistol under my bed and this would constitute civilized behavior. Self defense is civilized behavior, even if this requires a death threat. But, this is obviously an extreme and does not constitute threatening an innocent individual's life who has not planned to harm you, such as the example mentioned by the OP.



Bettawrekonize -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 5:16:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
This will sound a bit odd, but it actually does. IF there were no death threats against Adolf Hitler, civilization as we know it might not even exist. If a jihadist threatens to nuke my country, it is most certainly civilized behavior to threaten him back, or even act upon that threat to ensure civilized behavior in your country. If a robber enters my house demanding something, I will most certainly threaten their life with the pistol under my bed and this would constitute civilized behavior. Self defense is civilized behavior, even if this requires a death threat. But, this is obviously an extreme and does not constitute threatening an innocent individual's life who has not planned to harm you, such as the example mentioned by the OP.


In these circumstances, one could argue the threats are justified. Did Myers do anything that should justify death threats against him? If not, then in your opinion, do unjustified death threats constitute civilized behavior?



Bettawrekonize -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 5:19:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
Not in the least.


My point is that Christians and Catholics, ID advocates, creationists, and critics of evolution should act civilized.

quote:


So evolutionists need to be sensitive as well to what their remarks do to God and Christians and that what they say will come back to them one way or another.


I never said that evolutionists should act uncivilized or be insensitive.



evry1needsgod -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 6:42:19 PM)

quote:

Did Myers do anything that should justify death threats against him? If not, then in your opinion, do unjustified death threats constitute civilized behavior?


No and DEFINITELY no. I thought I made that quite clear in my post.



gluadys -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 8:01:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

quote:

In your opinion, do death threats constitute civilized behavior?


This will sound a bit odd, but it actually does. IF there were no death threats against Adolf Hitler, civilization as we know it might not even exist. If a jihadist threatens to nuke my country, it is most certainly civilized behavior to threaten him back, or even act upon that threat to ensure civilized behavior in your country. If a robber enters my house demanding something, I will most certainly threaten their life with the pistol under my bed and this would constitute civilized behavior. Self defense is civilized behavior, even if this requires a death threat. But, this is obviously an extreme and does not constitute threatening an innocent individual's life who has not planned to harm you, such as the example mentioned by the OP.



In that case, a Christian ought not to be civilized. We are called to a higher standard.



drj11 -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 8:34:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
And part of being civilized isn't degrading or devaluing human life to the level of wild animals. It just gives people permission to act like animals. So your statement is an oxymoron.


And yet, here this OP has observed actions that you claim are the result of evolution... yet the perpetrators are religiously motivated. In some instances religion devalues human life. Even Christianity. If this life is just a stepping stone or a test for the real eternal paradise that starts after its over, how could you really value it as you should? A very obvious but extreme example of this would a suicide bombers looking for their 72 virgins. If breaking a few eggs in this life can make sure that more survive in the next, then you can justify just about anything. The people making death threads are an example of Christians who have this mentality.

Conversely, the atheist could just as easily value human life more than a religious person who viewed life as just this thing you gotta do to get to the good part.

But back to the OP: I tend to be one of the snarkier posters around here sometimes, but there would never be cause for me to threaten physical violence, and I know most sane people (Christian, atheist, agnostic, even Islamic) wouldn't either.



Carico -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/11/2008 8:48:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellohellohi

quote:

Not in the least. And no true Christians would willfully disobey Jesus by doing so. I'm simply making the point that if you play with fire, you'll be burned, either on this earth or throughout eternity. So evolutionists need to be sensitive as well to what their remarks do to God and Christians


Honest, harsh, but fair, I say. Except, getting burned on this earth for sin amounts to "karma," which I for one don't believe in.


Some people don't believe in capital punishment, either nevertheless, it exists. [;)]



hellohellohi -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/12/2008 3:02:34 PM)

quote:

In your opinion, do death threats constitute civilized behavior?



This will sound a bit odd, but it actually does. IF there were no death threats against Adolf Hitler, civilization as we know it might not even exist.


Good point.



hellohellohi -> RE: We need to be civilized (7/12/2008 3:04:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellohellohi

quote:

Not in the least. And no true Christians would willfully disobey Jesus by doing so. I'm simply making the point that if you play with fire, you'll be burned, either on this earth or throughout eternity. So evolutionists need to be sensitive as well to what their remarks do to God and Christians


Honest, harsh, but fair, I say. Except, getting burned on this earth for sin amounts to "karma," which I for one don't believe in.


Some people don't believe in capital punishment, either nevertheless, it exists. [;)]



Yes. Incidentally, I think that is also one of the best arguments for capital punishment: it exists. But I have a weird way of thinking -- I like circular reasoning under some circumstances. Check out the death penalty threads under Morality & Ethics tho.



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