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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 8:05:22 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2909
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
A parent usually knows their child somewhat, but a door prize given to any kid, that is just unacceptable as a prize to children.
I agree.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 8:10:06 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3549
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
A parent usually knows their child somewhat, but a door prize given to any kid, that is just unacceptable as a prize to children.
I agree.
 well we are likeminded on this issue, I am still not sure where I stand on armed security, but, like I said my mind had beem clouded by the other church, so maybe it is wrong thinking on my part, I will have to pray more about it.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 8:11:37 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6992
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From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
A parent usually knows their child somewhat, but a door prize given to any kid, that is just unacceptable as a prize to children.
I agree.
Isn't that illegal now?
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 8:14:45 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3549
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Yes that is one of my points, that the children do not have background checks, they cannot buy guns. The adult buying the weapon would have the background check.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
A parent usually knows their child somewhat, but a door prize given to any kid, that is just unacceptable as a prize to children.
I agree.
Isn't that illegal now?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 8:19:20 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2909
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
A parent usually knows their child somewhat, but a door prize given to any kid, that is just unacceptable as a prize to children.
I agree.
Isn't that illegal now?
I think so. Most of the kids around here who have guns are actually using guns owned by their parents and mostly for the purpose of hunting. That is legal. But to have a concealed weapon? No, I don't think so.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 8:25:29 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3549
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Children in Oklahoma can not buy a weapon until either eighteen, or twenty one, one of these I will ask husband.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 9:30:51 PM
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zamdad
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Couple of things to add here. The wife of my pastor is troubled by guns. Yet, her son has an almost awkward fascination with them. The son, now 22 yoa, loves to play air soft all the time. The pastor, his son and daughters all hunt deer right out the back of the house on their property so she is not a stranger to guns. Yet, another police officer came to speak to the AWANA kids one night for counsel time. She asked me if it was appropriate for him to wear his gun in church. I told her that it's part of the uniform, that if I have my badge on that I feel naked without the gun.
Secondly, I think what I was trying to convey in my last post was that we have to get past our own feelings about matters whether it's guns or anything else. This is one of those areas where we develop opinions based on either personal experience or how we recieve and process infomation or a combination of both. IN my short life time I have witnessed a very vocal group of people who successfully used the media to get out a message that the violence problems plaguing our culture have to do with the direct access to guns. Yet, as a professional in the system and with military background I have learned that the gun itself is not the problem, it's the person in possession.
And herein lies the rub. We have far too many hurting people living with and around us. We have the means and the ability to get to know these people and know them well, but we rarely expend the time and effort to disciple them. Why is this? Is it because we are so busy/preoccupied with LIFE and our creature comforts? Or, is it because we pay people to do this for us? Whatever the reason, we have to be able to see beyond ourselves when it comes to any given issue. Seems like this is where most of our problem lies.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/12/2008 10:45:22 PM
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lightshineon
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Hi, Zamdad, well I liked your last post and what it conveyed. I am not anti-gun as stated there are twelve in my closet. I am no Annie Oakley, proven my at my last visit to the Bass Pro Shop, shooting gallery. I shot a little blue jay aiming at a huge grizzly. That was it, a blue jay out of twenty rounds  I really do not have a problem so much with guns at church, as much as the spirit I feel behind this. The elder said he was to stay with pastor at all times. When I saw the Deacons gun, earlier, he was turned talking, I could have grabbed it for his holster, if I wanted to. He never knew I saw, that I noticed it. My husband is military, and no way am I anti- police, military, gun whatever. My problem is that the elder sticking right by the pastor at all times, except when counting money ( hopefuly no one rushes pastor after offering) The other thing is upstairs it is all children, in what circumstance would one use deadly force? If someone came into the congergation shooting yes, I can see deadly force. Though there are no policies in place when to use deadly force in our church setting. If there is armed security, unless a police officer ( a real one), then mistakes can, and will be made. I think at the very least, policies and procedures should be in place, when conceled weapons are used in church, as well, really in any setting. If the pastor has been threatened, which, my husband an elder is unaware of, then this needs to be disclosed, being that the whole body could be in harms way. I mean the sheep to the slaughter kind of thing applies. This is not something to be kept hush, hush.
The other thing the door prize in OKC of a weapon, come on? Common sense and the law is on my side. If someone decides to hold a shooting revival at the public school, someone is in trouble. That would be the adult, and institution who supplied the teen with a weapon.
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 7/12/2008 10:53:57 PM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/13/2008 5:05:57 PM
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kridge
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Although I don't condone the use of guns, especially in the church I can see where some churches may feel the need to protect themselves from violence, vandalism, and other acts such as torching the church which seem to be a huge problem for the church.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/13/2008 7:20:35 PM
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Zhi
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From what I understand of the Oklahoma City thing, the gun giveaway is part of a shooting competition during the event. It's not a "come talk about Jesus, get a free gun". It won't be happening this year because the instructor/judge/referee of the shooting competition injured his foot and can't go this year, so they're not having the competition (or giving away the gun).
As for guns in church, well, someone's already linked the New Life shooting. You have to understand that New Life is not in a bad neighborhood, it's not in a good neighborhood, it's kind of in the middle of nowhere, though new neighborhoods are springing up around it now (the church I attended when I lived in the area is 2 miles from New Life). Some crazy goon who didn't even go to church there decided he hated Christians and wanted to shoot the place up. He brought a rifle and two handguns. He had just started shooting when a security guard shot him. There were 7,000 people inside the church at the time.
I don't know if there are people "packing" at my church. I would guess probably, since a couple of them are police officers. I would not expect to have anything happen at church, violence at churches from outside sources is unfortunately on the rise, and protecting the congregation may become more and more necessary, sadly.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/18/2008 3:55:43 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1791
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well the problem of " I would not dream of having a gun in church" mentality, is unfortunately some people not only dream it, but do it, and people end up dead.
So if a legal permit to carry is being used then yes, by all means do what you need to do to protect yourself, and your church family...you can best believe the criminals carrying the guns don't care where they are when they start shooting....and killing those who happen to be in the line of fire.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/18/2008 6:46:22 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1055
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quote:
you can best believe the criminals carrying the guns don't care where they are when they start shooting....and killing those who happen to be in the line of fire.
To not care about where they start shooting, the shooter would not only be a criminal but a sociopath. (Criminals generally have a motive.) And sociopaths are just not that common that I feel the need to make plans in case they happen to show up. I'd have a better chance of winning the lottery. Twice.
And, to tell the truth, ending up dead is not really the worst thing that could happen to me.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/18/2008 10:11:25 PM
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buckifn
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I doubt if many of us can begin to fathom the trauma survivor's often suffer after a mass shooting. If I chose to carry a gun it would be more out of concern for other's rather than myself.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/19/2008 3:03:07 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
To not care about where they start shooting, the shooter would not only be a criminal but a sociopath. (Criminals generally have a motive.) And sociopaths are just not that common that I feel the need to make plans in case they happen to show up. I'd have a better chance of winning the lottery. Twice.
And you can differentiate them how? You must be buying a lot of lottery tickets.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/19/2008 2:52:14 PM
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pbaribeault
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I can't differentiate them on sight, silly. I just know that mass-murdering sociopaths are statistically a low percentage of the population, so it's statistically unlikely that they will join us on Sunday morning. It's not something that's a probable enough event that I feel the need to concern myself about it.
(In North America we hear about 1 or 2 public area mass murders per year. The population of North America is 514,600,000... therefore the chances of any given person being a mass murdering sociopath is about one-in-260,000,000... what are the chances of winning the lottery? One sight said one-in-14,000,000... meaning in rough terms that it is about 20 times more likely that I will win the lottery my first ticket than it is that a visitor at church is out to kill us all.)
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/19/2008 2:58:22 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6992
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
I can't differentiate them on sight, silly. I just know that mass-murdering sociopaths are statistically a low percentage of the population, so it's statistically unlikely that they will join us on Sunday morning. It's not something that's a probable enough event that I feel the need to concern myself about it.
(In North America we hear about 1 or 2 public area mass murders per year. The population of North America is 514,600,000... therefore the chances of any given person being a mass murdering sociopath is about one-in-260,000,000... what are the chances of winning the lottery? One sight said one-in-14,000,000... meaning in rough terms that it is about 20 times more likely that I will win the lottery my first ticket than it is that a visitor at church is out to kill us all.)
Excellent point!
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/19/2008 11:20:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
A parent usually knows their child somewhat, but a door prize given to any kid, that is just unacceptable as a prize to children.
I agree.
Isn't that illegal now?
I think so. Most of the kids around here who have guns are actually using guns owned by their parents and mostly for the purpose of hunting. That is legal. But to have a concealed weapon? No, I don't think so.
It would only be illegal if the child were given the gun apart from a FBI *NICS check for firearm transaction regarding a parent or legal guardian who would be the legal owner... I believe there is a law against juveniles having handguns apart from exceptions for guns used for hunting and target practice, yet they can posses a rifle...
John
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 8:10:45 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4995
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
You know, I find it awfully sad that Christians are actually discussing when and when its not proper to inact violence upon people.
There are many times when God commanded the Israelites to wipe out entire nations. Violence is not something God is always opposed to.
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 8:12:19 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1791
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quote:
You know, I find it awfully sad that Christians are actually discussing when and when its not proper to inact violence upon people.
Believe it or not there is a difference between protecting someone's life and your own in self defense and random acts of violence.
and yes, Jesus was familiar with violence in the temple. I'm sure there are some who would say He initiated it.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 2:11:11 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 108
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From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
But to address what you have said - are you saying that Christians should not be police officers? law enforcement of any kind? serving in the military? acting as judges? as teachers? as authority figures of any kind?
And or are you saying that Christians should not act in the defense of someone where they would indeed use physical force, etc.. to stop an act of violence?
My original amusement about this "guns for God" which is a tacky title and is really disturbing since that is seriously what American Christianity is becoming, very complacent to cultural identity.
You tell me, provide me scriptural proof that a Christian can kill in any situation. I want to mirror the life of Jesus, did He kill people? In ANY situation?
Jesus preached a hard message, just because it sounds against what are flesh desires, what do we do? Change it a little to justify our selfish ambitions to be aggressive physically? Well lets just thank the good Lord today that the Apostles didn't have this attitude or instead of being the mighty men of Faith, they'd be murderers instead.
_____________________________
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 2:17:46 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 108
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From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PureOath
The book of Nehemiah has had a lot of influence on me both as an American Soldier and on short lived stint on a megachurch security team. They called it the "Gatekeeping" ministry. I've always looked as what I do as a Chaplain Assistant as building the temple with one hand while fighting with the other.
This sermon happens to state much about what I believe scripturally about war and its relationship to Christianity.
Americas Godly Heritage
A weapon is a tool that happens to have deadly force. There are times when deadly force is appropriate. This is a fallen world with evil in it. We aren't meant to let it overcome us.
The link you gave me doesn't operate too well on my dialup otherwise I'd give it a listen to. But I did see the title "America's Godly heritage". Does country dictate Jesus? Does country dictate the Law of God? There is a HUGE discrepency here.
It is a big huge homiletical leap for you to take a siutation in Nehemiah and superimpose it for today. Are you properly exegeting what you are reading? Does this mirror in the life of Jesus? When the disciples got Violant did Jesus say "Yes to self defense". I don't believe he did. Who are we following here? Are we following Jesus or are we following the American version of Jesus? I'm sorry to say that American Jesus does not fit the mold of the Bible. Gun slinger violant Jesus is NOT what I have read and served.
_____________________________
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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