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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 2:19:04 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6261
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
My original amusement about this "guns for God" which is a tacky title and is really disturbing since that is seriously what American Christianity is becoming, very complacent to cultural identity.
You tell me, provide me scriptural proof that a Christian can kill in any situation. I want to mirror the life of Jesus, did He kill people? In ANY situation?
I asked you some questions first, can you please address those first?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Jesus preached a hard message, just because it sounds against what are flesh desires, what do we do? Change it a little to justify our selfish ambitions to be aggressive physically?
No one is advocating one be "aggressive physically" simply for the sake of being aggressive. Where you derived that from this thread is beyond me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Well lets just thank the good Lord today that the Apostles didn't have this attitude or instead of being the mighty men of Faith, they'd be murderers instead.
Way to miss the point even further. Like I said earlier, please address my questions first and then we can proceed from there. It's good to know what side you're arguing for before we proceed any further.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 2:23:32 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 108
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From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I asked you some questions first, can you please address those first?
Why would teachers be violent? The other ones can vary. Scripture does not condone anybody to be a murderer in any given situation.
quote:
No one is advocating one be "aggressive physically" simply for the sake of being aggressive. Where you derived that from this thread is beyond me.
Then why is nobody saying or advocating what the Bible is actually saying? Is that taboo when it comes to people's gun clinging?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Way to miss the point even further. Like I said earlier, please address my questions first and then we can proceed from there. It's good to know what side you're arguing for before we proceed any further.
I am arguing that nobody is scripturally supporting themselves. I answered yours just now. The teacher one made no sense pertaining to a gun. Am I suppose to be complacent in "cultural Christianity". I much prefer Biblical Christianity. I want one person very soon to tell me if Jesus would do this. If someone can't give me that much, then I don't even know what we are arguing about.
_____________________________
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 2:50:24 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6261
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Why would teachers be violent?
Individuals that are authority figures - able to lay down discipline and judgments that can affect lives.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
The other ones can vary.
According to you how so? Can a Christian be a police officer but not a judge or ??
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Scripture does not condone anybody to be a murderer in any given situation.
There is a grand difference between murder and justified self-defense/killing. Most self-professing Christians that are from the angle I see you're coming from fail to see that vast difference. And hence make a blanket doctrinal stance that actually disobeys God, common sense, and places the blood of innocent people into their hands.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Then why is nobody saying or advocating what the Bible is actually saying?
In terms of what exactly?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Is that taboo when it comes to people's gun clinging?
See above.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I am arguing that nobody is scripturally supporting themselves. I answered yours just now. The teacher one made no sense pertaining to a gun. Am I suppose to be complacent in "cultural Christianity". I much prefer Biblical Christianity. I want one person very soon to tell me if Jesus would do this. If someone can't give me that much, then I don't even know what we are arguing about.
As with many questions in our lives, I believe it all has to do with wisdom, understanding, and tact. For instance, in the Luke 22 passage that many reference when this topic arises every now and then.. Jesus does tell his disciples to get a sword.
Jesus knew that now was the time when Jesus would be threatened (and later killed) and his followers would be threatened as well.
Jesus was giving approval of the fact that one has the right to defend himself. Now just a few verses later we see Jesus being arrested and Peter takes a sword and cuts off someone’s ear. Jesus rebukes him for that act.
Why? Peter was trying to stop something that Jesus had been telling His disciples was in fact going to happen.
In other words, Peter was acting unwisely in the situation. He was trying to stop something that was not supposed to be stopped. We must be wise when to fight and when not to.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 3:45:46 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 108
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From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Individuals that are authority figures - able to lay down discipline and judgments that can affect lives.
I have no problem with an authority figure. Jesus was an authority figure. He is the King. Jesus promoted discipline based on your words, not fighting or hitting. Can you deny this?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
According to you how so? Can a Christian be a police officer but not a judge or ??
As long as they are not contradicting the message of Christ, they can be a lot of things :O)
quote:
There is a grand difference between murder and justified self-defense/killing. Most self-professing Christians that are from the angle I see you're coming from fail to see that vast difference. And hence make a blanket doctrinal stance that actually disobeys God, common sense, and places the blood of innocent people into their hands.
I would like to borrow your handbook on justified self defense and killing in the "but and and If" version. I don't believe I have reserved my copy. Did Jesus say this was OK? I am striving to not be driven by instinct. Instinct has the mare of sin in it. I want to be part of the fruit of the Spirit. Does the fruits of the Spirit inact anything you've just said?
quote:
In terms of what exactly?
Jesus' life and ministry. All I've read is its not ok BUT IF and And's. Is this a hard message Jesus preached a life of being non violant? Yes it is. Do we preach it today? Nope, we just excuse it and forget it existed instead.
quote:
As with many questions in our lives, I believe it all has to do with wisdom, understanding, and tact. For instance, in the Luke 22 passage that many reference when this topic arises every now and then.. Jesus does tell his disciples to get a sword.
Jesus knew that now was the time when Jesus would be threatened (and later killed) and his followers would be threatened as well.
Jesus was giving approval of the fact that one has the right to defend himself. Now just a few verses later we see Jesus being arrested and Peter takes a sword and cuts off someone’s ear. Jesus rebukes him for that act.
Why? Peter was trying to stop something that Jesus had been telling His disciples was in fact going to happen.
In other words, Peter was acting unwisely in the situation. He was trying to stop something that was not supposed to be stopped. We must be wise when to fight and when not to.
Did He now? Do you have it in writing Jesus said it was OK to fight people? I know what the text is you speak of and you added a sequel on to it.
I have a good link stored away that I'll give you. It's a very good exegesis of that particular verse. It apparently has to go on the list of things that people add stuff to.
LINK
_____________________________
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 4:02:44 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6261
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I have no problem with an authority figure. Jesus was an authority figure. He is the King. Jesus promoted discipline based on your words, not fighting or hitting. Can you deny this?
Um, no. Jesus also disciplined with a whip and started a physical uproar in the temple. According to Webster’s dictionary, a pacifist is someone who is opposed to violence, especially war, for any purpose, often accompanied by the refusal to bear arms by reason of conscience or religious conviction.
While Jesus is the “prince of peace” (Isaiah 9:6), He was not, and is not, a pacifist.
Revelation 19:15, speaking of Jesus, declares, "Out of His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty."
Ecclesiastes 3:1, 3, & 8 say, “There is a time for everything and a season for every activity under the heaven…a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.”
Daniel 9:26 says that “war will continue until the end, and desolation's have been decreed.”
Matthew 24:6-8 says, “You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.”
Jesus Himself said, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household’” (Matthew 10:34-36).
“From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it” (Matthew 11:12).
We are commanded to hate what is evil and cling to what is good (Romans 12:9). In doing so we must take a stand against what is evil in this world and pursue righteousness (2 Timothy 2:22).
Jesus did this and, in so doing, spoke openly against the religious and political rulers of His time because they were not seeking a righteousness from God, but rather of their own making (Luke 20:1-2, Romans 9:31-33).
Zeal for God’s righteousness consumed Jesus, and He was not afraid to stand up against those who opposed and dishonored His Father (John 2:15-17, Numbers 25:11). “Those who hate Him He will repay to their face by destruction; He will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate Him” (Deuteronomy 7:10).
“While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).
The Old Testament is full of examples of how God used his people in war to bring judgment upon nations whose sin had reached its full measure (only a few examples: Genesis 15:16, Numbers 21:3, 31:1-7, 32:20-21, Deuteronomy 7:1-2, Joshua 6:20-21, 8:1-8, 10:29-32, 11:7-20).
In raising the moral consciousness of the world, God must take the people as He finds them and introduce principles of righteousness within the moral framework with which the people can identify.
We can be assured though, that it is always with justice that God judges and makes war (Revelation 19:11).
“For we know Him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ and again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Hebrews 10:30-31).
What we can learn from these and other Biblical examples is that we are only to wage war when it is the will of God and not at our own discretion (John 18:11, Numbers 14:41-45). It is God’s choice as to how and when He brings judgment of sin upon this world and its inhabitants, to display His holiness. We are simply called to follow Him (Matthew 16:24-25).
All of this may sound contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, God Himself, in which He instructs us to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 19:19), turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39), as well as the command, “you shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13).
After all, we are told that God is love (1 John 4:16) and “Blessed are the peacemakers” (Matthew 5:9). The Bible also says in 2 Corinthians 10:4, “For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine powers to demolish strongholds.“
While all this is indeed true, it helps in examining these seemingly contradictory concepts from an eternal perspective, that we may gain a more complete understanding for Jesus’ purpose in coming to this earth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
As long as they are not contradicting the message of Christ, they can be a lot of things :O)
That's a cheap answer. So if a Christian police officer needs to discharge his or her weapon to either prevent serious bodily harm or death to innocent people or to themselves, they are not to do so?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I would like to borrow your handbook on justified self defense and killing in the "but and and If" version. I don't believe I have reserved my copy. Did Jesus say this was OK?
Yes, God says it is OK in the context of His Word - the Bible.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I am striving to not be driven by instinct. Instinct has the mare of sin in it. I want to be part of the fruit of the Spirit. Does the fruits of the Spirit inact anything you've just said?
Yes, Galatians 5:22-23 tells us, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control..."
If your wife is being raped at the local super market's parking lot and your children are next to be harmed or killed. It is right, just, loving and good to do what you must to protect your family and stop the attacker.
Are you telling us that you would just stand there idly by and permit that to happen?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Jesus' life and ministry. All I've read is its not ok BUT IF and And's. Is this a hard message Jesus preached a life of being non violant? Yes it is. Do we preach it today? Nope, we just excuse it and forget it existed instead.
Context is key - your message is only one half of the story.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Did He now? Do you have it in writing Jesus said it was OK to fight people? I know what the text is you speak of and you added a sequel on to it.
Again, context.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I have a good link stored away that I'll give you. It's a very good exegesis of that particular verse. It apparently has to go on the list of things that people add stuff to.
LINK
Thank you for sharing that link, but I have read it before. I know the creator of that website.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 5:25:32 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
You tell me, provide me scriptural proof that a Christian can kill in any situation. I want to mirror the life of Jesus, did He kill people? In ANY situation?
The Flood... Jericho... When God commaned Moses to slay those who didn't choose God... A couple of folks who were struck dead in Act for not being honest... David killed Goliath in the name of the Lord... I believe there was a couple folks who thought they could worship God in a way they thought best and God struck them done...
John
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 6:08:00 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1700
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
I can't differentiate them on sight, silly. I just know that mass-murdering sociopaths are statistically a low percentage of the population, so it's statistically unlikely that they will join us on Sunday morning. It's not something that's a probable enough event that I feel the need to concern myself about it.
(In North America we hear about 1 or 2 public area mass murders per year. The population of North America is 514,600,000... therefore the chances of any given person being a mass murdering sociopath is about one-in-260,000,000... what are the chances of winning the lottery? One sight said one-in-14,000,000... meaning in rough terms that it is about 20 times more likely that I will win the lottery my first ticket than it is that a visitor at church is out to kill us all.)
You know, I've always struggled with math. I hated statistics in college and dislike them jus as much today as numbers can be fudged to support any position. But, something I've studied throughout my lifetime is people. Having worked with the worst of the worst as probation officer and now dealing with them as a police officer, I haev come to the conclusion that most worshippers gathered togeth on a Sunday morning don't really know the people sitting among them.
As a society we have devised and implimented more ways to communicate with one another, yet we know each other less and less. Look at all the school shootings, the mall shooting, the Wendy's shooting, the host of other shootings we don't hear about. Why did these shooters do what they did? Were they sociopaths? Ask most of those who knew them and we would hear all sorts of things to indicate this was out of character. If they had anything in common it's that they hurt deeply inside; wounds of the soul. Where are we as Christians? What about the one anothers spoke of in scripture.
When we rely so heavily on the odds, our tendency is to support systems to support the numbers. Crist tells us to love the Lord with all our heart, soul and strength and to love our neighbor as our self. It's no wonder our criminal justice system is so overloaded. Our social service agencies and the criminal justice system are designed to help people. Unfortunately we have come to serve the numbers to make it appear we are serving people.
What's this have to do with guns and God. If that nice man who attends faithfully every week and hiding that wound to his soul decides to unleash his anger on others, someone might be there to stop him from spreading his misery.
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 9:01:38 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4995
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
You tell me, provide me scriptural proof that a Christian can kill in any situation. I want to mirror the life of Jesus, did He kill people? In ANY situation?
When Jesus came the first time, He came to die. When He comes the next time, He will kill people.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 9:50:30 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6261
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Nobody will answer me!
I did and am awaiting your response.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 9:59:12 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 108
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Nobody will answer me!
I did and am awaiting your response.
I answered your sword question with a link that summed up what I stand on.
I cannot believe you are so desperate to really want a violant Jesus that you will just come up with anything to justify it.
I can see where this argument is going now, you just keep repeating that to avoid the point. Your justification of violance contradicts the lives of the Apostles and the fruits of the Spirit.
_____________________________
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 10:51:56 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1700
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Rebelman, does every interaction you have with another human being leave them walking away with a changed perspective on eternity? If you are in a situation with a criminal/sociopath intent on physical harm to you or another, do they walk away from you with new introspection? I read you saying you want to mirror Jesus, yet I hear you saying your a peaceafist and will stand idly by allowing thugs to do what thugs do.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/20/2008 11:18:18 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 108
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Rebelman, does every interaction you have with another human being leave them walking away with a changed perspective on eternity? If you are in a situation with a criminal/sociopath intent on physical harm to you or another, do they walk away from you with new introspection? I read you saying you want to mirror Jesus, yet I hear you saying your a peaceafist and will stand idly by allowing thugs to do what thugs do.
Do criminals walk away from me with a new introspection? Are you indirectly mocking me?
Hey, if yall dont want to mirror or scripturally back this up without grasping at anything imaginable, take that up with God not me.
That's all this thread basically is and turning in to sadly.
_____________________________
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 7:47:35 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6261
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I answered your sword question with a link that summed up what I stand on.
Yes, but that does not address my response to that link and a couple of solid questions which bear a response. I provided Scriptural context and you're going to just ignore it because of a link you posted prior to it?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I cannot believe you are so desperate to really want a violant Jesus that you will just come up with anything to justify it.
I can see where this argument is going now, you just keep repeating that to avoid the point. Your justification of violance contradicts the lives of the Apostles and the fruits of the Spirit.
For the sake of our adult conversation and the seriousness that beliefs have consequences. Can you simply answer the following two questions from that last post of mine?
Question #1
If a Christian police officer needs to discharge his or her weapon to either prevent serious bodily harm or death to innocent people or to themselves, they are not to do so?
Question #2
If your wife is being raped at the local super market's parking lot and your children are next to be harmed or killed. It is right, just, loving and good to do what you must to protect your family and stop the attacker.
Are you telling us that you would just stand there idly by and permit that to happen?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 9:42:44 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4995
Joined: 4/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
You tell me, provide me scriptural proof that a Christian can kill in any situation. I want to mirror the life of Jesus, did He kill people? In ANY situation?
When Jesus came the first time, He came to die. When He comes the next time, He will kill people.
Wow! Way to Isegete that one 
Anything else I can do in Revelation? Can I go out and just do whatever now?
Let's back this horse up to the earthly ministry of Jesus.
Grasping at straws. Apparently if I have a fascination like people on this site seem to have with guns, I'll just grab at any ol horse to justify my actions.
Nobody will answer me!
What did I "isegete"? You asked if Jesus ever killed people, I said He's going to when He comes back. I didn't interpret that to say you can go out and just do whatever now. Don't put words in my mouth.
God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. There are certain circumtances, according to the Bible, where killing is not only not condemned but is commanded. Walking into a crowded place and shooting innocent people at will=murder. Defending the defenseless against the murderer is not murder. In Bible times, if someone killed your relative, as the avenger of blood you could hunt them down and kill them yourself. It was not considered murder.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 1:33:14 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1700
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
Do criminals walk away from me with a new introspection? Are you indirectly mocking me?
Hey, if yall dont want to mirror or scripturally back this up without grasping at anything imaginable, take that up with God not me.
That's all this thread basically is and turning in to sadly.
No, it was an honest question. Is your response a reflection of Jesus? You don't seem to be impacting others perspectives on eternity in your interactions here. If you feel that this is becoming more about you than the topic, it may have more to do with how you're responding than how the rest of us are behaving.
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 1:57:56 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1791
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Look at it this way. if you are so against someone at church (or anywhere else) carrying a licensed gun to protect more people from becoming victims of a deadly rampage then you always have another option...step in front of them and be the next one shot.
I mean nobody is forcing you to believe ...not even Jesus is interested in doing that. You have your own free will... Just don't be upset if my free will helps me choose to save someone's life by doing whatever necessary.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 3:25:45 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 108
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Um, no. Jesus also disciplined with a whip and started a physical uproar in the temple. According to Webster’s dictionary, a pacifist is someone who is opposed to violence, especially war, for any purpose, often accompanied by the refusal to bear arms by reason of conscience or religious conviction.
Do you realize what you just stated DID NOT begin as a 'theology" until the time of Augustine? Beforehand a Christian would never do/say what you just read. This was not the original teaching of the church. Do we no longer trust our savior to protect us that we have to protect ourselves now?
quote:
While Jesus is the “prince of peace” (Isaiah 9:6), He was not, and is not, a pacifist.
Revelation 19:15, speaking of Jesus, declares, "Out of His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty."
I must say I am not a fan of one verse quotations without proper study and exegesis, that goes in to a whole can of beans when we start superimposing what we think one line of the Bible in a book means for today. That is a huge homiletical leap.
Do you realize that Jesus practiced Matthew 5:38-48 to the day of His death? Are you say Jesus was just making things up as He was going along? This text gets ignored by most Christians because they do not want to hear such things, way too offensive for Jesus to ask such things.
quote:
Ecclesiastes 3:1, 3, & 8 say, “There is a time for everything and a season for every activity under the heaven…a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.”
Daniel 9:26 says that “war will continue until the end, and desolation's have been decreed.”
Jesus gave us a model to live by, you are quoting at random. By reading that I can also justify hate in my heart as well.
quote:
Matthew 24:6-8 says, “You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.”
And we've been hearing wars and rumors of wars since then, what does this have to do with us killing?
quote:
Jesus Himself said, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household’” (Matthew 10:34-36).
Read this in the full context of the chapter and passages, it is so easy for me to pick plops of verses without reading them in context and super impose meanings on them. He didn't justify violence there either if you are reading closely.
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“From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it” (Matthew 11:12).
Define force, this, too, does not say kill.
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We are commanded to hate what is evil and cling to what is good (Romans 12:9). In doing so we must take a stand against what is evil in this world and pursue righteousness (2 Timothy 2:22).
Doesn't justify violence or killing either.
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Jesus did this and, in so doing, spoke openly against the religious and political rulers of His time because they were not seeking a righteousness from God, but rather of their own making (Luke 20:1-2, Romans 9:31-33).
Yes, speaking against evil is right. That again does not say anything about killing.
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Zeal for God’s righteousness consumed Jesus, and He was not afraid to stand up against those who opposed and dishonored His Father (John 2:15-17, Numbers 25:11). “Those who hate Him He will repay to their face by destruction; He will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate Him” (Deuteronomy 7:10).
Doesn't justify violence at all.
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“While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).
Context please.
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The Old Testament is full of examples of how God used his people in war to bring judgment upon nations whose sin had reached its full measure (only a few examples: Genesis 15:16, Numbers 21:3, 31:1-7, 32:20-21, Deuteronomy 7:1-2, Joshua 6:20-21, 8:1-8, 10:29-32, 11:7-20).
We aren't discussing war at all, I know there is a thread for that. We are discussing when Jesus ever SAID it is ok to kill people.
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In raising the moral consciousness of the world, God must take the people as He finds them and introduce principles of righteousness within the moral framework with which the people can identify.
We can be assured though, that it is always with justice that God judges and makes war (Revelation 19:11).
Word choices, it says GOD not us. Are we on the same level as Holy God?
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“For we know Him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ and again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Hebrews 10:30-31).
That is why He is saying for US to NOT do it.
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All of this may sound contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, God Himself, in which He instructs us to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 19:19), turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39), as well as the command, “you shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13).
Actually what you quoted isn't contradicting anything. If we can start reading in context I am sure we can pull a more proper meaning from the text. Most of what I have seen is one verse o rama.
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After all, we are told that God is love (1 John 4:16) and “Blessed are the peacemakers” (Matthew 5:9). The Bible also says in 2 Corinthians 10:4, “For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine powers to demolish strongholds.“
By our witness and testimony, at least that is what Jesus did.
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That's a cheap answer. So if a Christian police officer needs to discharge his or her weapon to either prevent serious bodily harm or death to innocent people or to themselves, they are not to do so?
I was reading today that this all started with Augustine' City of God. This is when the justification started to find ways for Christians to be "active participants" in violant acts. Beforehand, Christians had no intention of such things.
And to answer your question, no I do not approve of a "Christian poliice officer' killing people. I can help but when I start assuming I am God and doing what He does (taking life) then we go to a new level. I realize this bashes mainstream American thought but as Christianity has diminished in this country it is honestly getting how sad that we have just plugged ourselves all over the place just because we're in a "gun culture"
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Yes, God says it is OK in the context of His Word - the Bible.
No it doesn't. The passages you provided do not say "Violent self defense" or "killing an any purpose". I do see that you ADDED that meaning on to it without it actually saying that or quoting one line out of place of where it is to justify that though
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Yes, Galatians 5:22-23 tells us, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control..."
Then were are the other lists of the fruit then? None of those seem to answer what we are discussing.
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If your wife is being raped at the local super market's parking lot and your children are next to be harmed or killed. It is right, just, loving and good to do what you must to protect your family and stop the attacker.
Are you telling us that you would just stand there idly by and permit that to happen?
Would GOD permit this to happen? I trust God would never do anything that would make me violate His word. I know what you are trying to do, you are going to give me worst case scenarios like you see on TV to try to trick me in to saying I'd kill, thus making me contradict His word. The God I serve would NEVER tempt me beyond my recognition to break His word.
I've had instances in my life where I "could" have fought. But I just stare or walk away.
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Context is key - your message is only one half of the story.
Yet you are quoting verses above out of context.
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Thank you for sharing that link, but I have read it before. I know the creator of that website.
Problem with it? It answered your question of Jesus saying kill folks with a sword pretty well. Jesus had to fulfill the image He was to be put on the cross, looking like a thief. Thieves carry weapons. Don't they?
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"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 3:28:19 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 108
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
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ORIGINAL: rebelman
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ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
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You tell me, provide me scriptural proof that a Christian can kill in any situation. I want to mirror the life of Jesus, did He kill people? In ANY situation?
When Jesus came the first time, He came to die. When He comes the next time, He will kill people.
Wow! Way to Isegete that one
Anything else I can do in Revelation? Can I go out and just do whatever now?
Let's back this horse up to the earthly ministry of Jesus.
Grasping at straws. Apparently if I have a fascination like people on this site seem to have with guns, I'll just grab at any ol horse to justify my actions.
Nobody will answer me!
What did I "isegete"? You asked if Jesus ever killed people, I said He's going to when He comes back. I didn't interpret that to say you can go out and just do whatever now. Don't put words in my mouth.
God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. There are certain circumtances, according to the Bible, where killing is not only not condemned but is commanded. Walking into a crowded place and shooting innocent people at will=murder. Defending the defenseless against the murderer is not murder. In Bible times, if someone killed your relative, as the avenger of blood you could hunt them down and kill them yourself. It was not considered murder.
Is that right now? Was Jesus in the twilight zone when he preached the message of praying for enemies, pray for those who persecute you. Kind of hard to pray for themif you are busy killing them, eh?
Are you sure you aren't applying Americanism to this? I know the American way is to bear arms and protect your family. That does NOT trust God to protect you now does it?
The way this thread is turning we are a bunch of blood thirsty violant monsters!
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"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 3:31:41 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 108
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: buckifn
Look at it this way. if you are so against someone at church (or anyw | | |
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