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phosadaud -> RE: Guns for God. (7/21/2008 9:59:03 PM)
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ORIGINAL: rebelman
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ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Wow... I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone came to ejumacate us evil-doers... [8|]
#1 Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He was with God from the beginning. He wasn't one God in the OT, then completely changed His entire belief system just because He became man. Period. End of story. Scripture is VERY clear that there is a time to kill. In fact, it even says that EXACT thing. There is NOWHERE in Scripture that says humans should never, ever, ever use deadly force. In fact, throughout Scripture we see where God commanded deadly force in certain instances. Even the 10 Commandments say we shall not MURDER, not we shall not kill. There is a vast difference. This follows through even into the NT. Look at the early church and Ananias & Sapphira who got a "death sentence" directly from God for lying to God (ever read Acts?).
I prefer to look at the life of Jesus. I am discussing yall just prefer to stick to "majority rules" option. I am simply stating what Original Christianity was before today, does this bug you?
#1. I just want to make sure we are on the same page. You do believe that Jesus is God and that He was with God from the beginning and that He is with God now, right? Because if you do, you can't just look at 3 years of His ministry on earth and say that all other Scripture is wrong because the way you personally have interpreted those few verses can only mean one thing and all other interpretations that look at ALL of Scripture are wrong.
You see, ALL Scripture is God breathed (remember Paul saying that - and he was actually referring to the OT). God didn't change when Jesus came to earth. When God tells us there is a time to kill... a time for war... He didn't change His mind (Ecclesiastes 3). When God tells us that He instituted government wield the sword and punish evildoers, He wasn't saying law enforcers are supposed to nicely ask people to go walk themselves to jail because they were bad (Romans 13:1-6).
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#2 Where does it say Christians can not & should not be in law enforcement? Jesus told the Roman Centurian that He had never seen greater faith in all of Israel. Certainly, if He was in a profession that was "evil" and "monstrous", this was the perfect opportunity to address it. And we see throughout Scripture that this is not an isolated circumstance.
Read up on Early Church teachings and writings. They REFUSED to be part of the military of law enforcement.
Many did - some did not. However, as far as I know, we are supposed to follow Jesus, not the early church. The early church was not perfect. Everything has to come back to Scripture - ALL Scripture. The fact is, Jesus confronted a lot of sin in His life - so did Paul. Not one single time did they tell anyone in authority to step down. Not once. Is it because they didn't care? No. Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more because her choice of life was sinful. Paul went even further - check these verses out:
1 Corinthians 9:3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don't we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living? 7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk?
Hmmm... He lists soldier among other occupations. There is no condemnation. It is a job like a shepherd and a farmer.
2 Timothy 2:3 Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs--he wants to please his commanding officer. 5 Similarly, if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not receive the victor's crown unless he competes according to the rules. 6 The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops.
Again. No condemnation. No "don't do it!". No telling believers this isn't a "Christian" job.
And read Acts 10 about Cornelius - the devout man of God who was also a Roman centurion. Check out what Peter's response to him was. Do you see any condemnation?
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#3 For the life of me, I cannot comprehend why you can't see the difference between killing in self-defense to save the life of an innocent and someone like Ted Bundy. Even the most ardent pacifists, though they may disagree, can see the difference there.
For the life of me I can't understand why Jesus said pray for your enemies. For the life of me I can't understand why Jesus never physically hurt people. For the life of me I can't understand why Paul didn't get aggressive and hurt some folks physically instead of getting put in Jail. For the life of me in Luke I can't understand why Jesus was so mean and said "bury your own dead". For the life of me I can't understand why a person said going back to say goodbye to your family then then Jesus said "anyone who turns back is not fit to serve in the Kingdom"
Harsh message, do you ignore what seems to "out of reality". Apparently Jesus did that a bit.
You are seeing this as an either/or and it's not. You can love someone and pray for someone and still do whatever it takes to stop them from trying to kill somone else. God loves us and yet how many people has He wiped off the face of the earth? God loved Ananias and Sapphira and yet read Acts 5 to see what the consequences of their actions were.
I have no clue what point you are trying to make with the rest of your statements. Maybe you could elaborate.
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#4 As far as thinking God will protect you and your family from something horrific happening, that is simply wrong. I'm assuming you have read enough history to know some of the horrific deaths and such those in the early church met. And, if you step outside the confines of the US, you will see that Believers today in other parts of the world face horrific things. Even within the US - I had a dear family friend who was a strong believer, who was murdered in cold blood along with her daughter by a psycho. Was she not as "good" as you are?
Trusting Jesus is wrong now? What do I trust then? Want me to trust myself? Want me to go down to a local store and pick up a gun and do God's work for Him? And Yes I have read up a lot on it and it does not support your notion of what you are preaching on here. They didn't attack back. They did no such thing. Origen and Turtulien are two great examples for Christians today if they would actually read what went on instead of assuming they already know.
Who said trusting Jesus is wrong? Do you just sit in your all day and expect God to drop manna from heaven to feed you? Of course not! God gave you hands and feet and a brain for a reason. Maybe earthless will share the story of the man in the flood or I can share the version that I heard. It's the same idea - basically, God works in many ways - and usually it's through people not through some kind of magical intervention. Or maybe you can share where in Scripture you got the idea that God never uses people to accomplish His purposes. I kind of get the opposite impression. When we start limiting how God can operate, we limit God. But God is not in a box. Who are you to tell God how He is going to protect His flock?
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Apparently its very wrong on here to be a Bible literalists. To read the words as they were in context, as spoken and see the ones who heard those teachings and lived them out daily. American Christianity does not teach this. Pardon me for being in a slim minority and offending what you are so keen to stand on. I use to believe this stuff too until this year I did my homework and shocked at what I read.
Where are you getting this idea? You have yet to address any of the Scriptural arguments I have brought forth and explained why I am wrong in context and such. I know the history and I have come to a different conclusion. You say we are to follow those who heard those teachings and yet the people you quote were not ones who heard Jesus speak directly (check out when Origen lived for instance). Even if they had, read the NT. Even then, there were all kinds of wrong ideas and such flying around and the church fought even then as to what Jesus intended (remember the Jerusalem council). And look at Origen's other teachings. Are you saying you agree 100% with everything he taught? He was a great theologian to be sure, but he wasn't perfect by any sense of the term. Again, we have to go back to Scripture.
By the way, if you truly want to discuss this, it would help if you would discuss some of the points we are trying to make. We are trying to discuss yours and would appreciate the same courtesy.
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