RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (Full Version)

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car2ner -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 9:15:16 AM)

I've learned from both types of services. I've seen lack of substance in both types of services, too.



CoeurdeLeon_ -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 9:31:20 AM)

Man, I keep thinking 'well, if you can't have fun with God, where exactly can you have fun?'

I don't think Fun=Entertainment. Learning is fun, just being together in corporate worship is fun, even when the Holy Spirit nails me during a sermon I can laugh at myself for being such an idiot and thank Him for showing me just how ridiculous I've been.

My pastor has a sense of humor that matches my own (read weird) but he's dead serious about Christ and our need for Him. It's fun that there's spontaneity in the service. It's fun that mistakes or unforseen circumstances don't throw the whole pageant off.

I dunno. I think being with God and God's people is fun.


Of course, I think fun is largely a state of mind and that we bring it with us wherever we go.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 9:50:58 AM)

I remember a book full of Christian cartoons once that a list of "Things Christians Can Do For Fun Without Sinning". It had two items on the list: Eat, and have babies. [:D]

I think the people who insist that churches aren't supposed to be about having fun use that as an excuse as to why their church is so boring. So the songs they sing are fifty years old, and you struggle to stay awake during the service, and you mention that you wish they'd sing something a little newer...and they come back at you and say, "Well, church isn't supposed to be about entertainment."

It is true that we can often be so focused on ourselves and the trappings that we think our worship is dependant on them. We think we can't worship along to an organ, we've got to have a full band, and they'd better sing some good music, too. So I can see both sides to this. It's sometimes good for us to realize that worship comes from the heart, and the externals do not cause us to worship nor do they keep us from it.

However, there is no reason that church needs to be boring. There's nothing wrong with quality music and interesting sermons. It's only the people who don't have them that seem to think they are wrong.



humbleinspirit -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 9:53:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

I remember a book full of Christian cartoons once that a list of "Things Christians Can Do For Fun Without Sinning". It had two items on the list: Eat, and have babies. [:D]


Now who said that having babies was fun?[8D] Sorry, I do realize that this is a little off-topic, but I just had to comment on that! [:D]



zoebob -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 10:01:56 AM)

OK. LEt's redefine it: eating and making babies



Consecrated2God -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 10:05:09 AM)

It was a Christian book. Maybe it thought that saying, "making babies" would be too risque. [8D]



bluestone -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 10:20:10 AM)

I grow weary of the whoop and holler crowd saying that anything outside of their contemporary box they put God in is boring. I get a great blessing from singing hymns that actually say something of substance, rather than the repetitive and hypnotic choruses that I think are used by people like Todd Bentley for mind control. Boring?? Listening to the same fluffy chorus repeated twenty times is boring. Trying to hear a sermon over the babble of the charaskooks is boring.

Worship should be about Jesus, and done in order. Not about upping the ratings in the local church race for top dog.



ddave12000 -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 10:30:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I grow weary of the whoop and holler crowd saying that anything outside of their contemporary box they put God in is boring. I get a great blessing from singing hymns that actually say something of substance, rather than the repetitive and hypnotic choruses that I think are used by people like Todd Bentley for mind control. Boring?? Listening to the same fluffy chorus repeated twenty times is boring. Trying to hear a sermon over the babble of the charaskooks is boring.

Worship should be about Jesus, and done in order. Not about upping the ratings in the local church race for top dog.


Maybe you should make some more generalizations and people will start to see your point??

OK, that was sarcasm, but your post sounds mean-spirited and not true of most people who appreciate contemporary worship. I don't know of any Christians who believe Todd Bentley is anything other than a false prophet, nor have I known any church to use music for mind control. Especially in the spirit of Todd Bentley - yikes!

You're seem to be upset about people calling traditional music boring, but then you go and bash contemporary music. It's easy to see why it's hard for the two camps to get along.



car2ner -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 11:26:44 AM)

I went to a fellowship that used both styles of music. There are some great worshipful new songs and some down-right dumb new music. Yet there are very old hymns that should not be forgotten and unsung.
It is hard to find a balance since people tend to gravitate to one or another.

It was odd to hear a very regulated type music director try to get his choir to sing a pop-rock christian worship song. It just didn't work, too measured.
It can also be odd to hear a jazz singer sing an older more structured song with a loose jazz style.



zoebob -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 11:30:29 AM)

I think our church does a good job of balance. Our songs range from classic hymns to newer praise songs. Every song is deliberately chosen for a purpose: to draw us into worship God, to remind of us our sin, to reassure us of forgiveness, etc. When our pastor stands up to start the service he often has to stand a minute for people to notice and quiet down and listen. He is happy that we are talking and fellowshiping and enjoying each other's company. However, once the service starts we are guided into God's presense and reminded of our total dependency on God and His love for us. The sermon is meaty but also reminds of us of our need for GOd.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 12:00:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I grow weary of the whoop and holler crowd saying that anything outside of their contemporary box they put God in is boring. I get a great blessing from singing hymns that actually say something of substance, rather than the repetitive and hypnotic choruses that I think are used by people like Todd Bentley for mind control. Boring?? Listening to the same fluffy chorus repeated twenty times is boring. Trying to hear a sermon over the babble of the charaskooks is boring.

Worship should be about Jesus, and done in order. Not about upping the ratings in the local church race for top dog.


I don't know who Todd Bentley is, so I won't address that part of your post.

I enjoy hymns, if they are done well. I enjoy just about any kind of music if it's done well. I like beautiful music that is arranged well and played by people with some talent. The same song, whether it is a month old, thirty years old, or a hundred years old, can sound terrible or wonderful depending on how you play it. So I'm not one to say that new music is good and old is bad, or vice versa. There are many wonderful songs written throughout all the generations, and a good quality song should be played in church no matter when it was composed.

However, what I was addressing is this mindset that if people find the music boring, or the sermon boring, or church in general boring, they are always the ones with the problem. Church isn't supposed to be fun anyway, so good-bye and good-riddance. No attempt to actually improve the quality of the service, just a rut of mediocrity.

I've actually heard a pastor say about his tiny, 11-member church, that they must be doing something right because they were the faithful few, and anyone who had a big church must be tickling people's ears because in the end, the love of many will wax cold.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 5:34:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I don't know who Todd Bentley is, so I won't address that part of your post.

Oh! Mother of My Beautiful Western Wall Quilt! You must look Toddy up! He's a CASE! Mental case, that is.

By the way, I heard a song on the radio once years and years ago. I don't remember all the words anymore, but part of it went something like this:
You say that church is boring
That you don't like the songs
You say you like your pastor but
His sermons are too long
I'll tell what's the problem
It's not the church, it's you
And every other person who
Just sits there in the pew
Chorus:
Sitting in the pew
Sitting in the pew
Every Sunday morning you're just
Sitting in the pew
Give your heart to Jesus
And before He's through
You'll enjoy your Sunday mornings
Sitting in the pew.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 5:59:37 PM)

Okay, I'll google him, just for fun. [:D]

I do agree with your post. I think it goes back to the fact that people and churches both need to take responsibility for what they do. It reminds me of my kids sometimes, always concerned that their brother or sister isn't doing what they are supposed to be doing, but they aren't doing it either.

If people would realize that worship comes from the heart and not put the blame on the worship leader singing a song they didn't care for, or the sermon being too long or too short or the pastor not speaking in tongues enough or speaking in tongues too often...

And if the church leaders would do their best to deliver quality music (actually practice before they sing, pastors research sermons instead of doing "Saturday night specials")...

then there wouldn't be a problem.



DreadPirateRandy -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 6:19:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

Not have a shallow fluff festival with a wanna be rock band


No churches around my community have a worship band. Only the church and band I'm in. I've learned to be thankful that there's a place I can go and a band I can be in that glorifies God, and not worldly things.

I'm thankful God gave me the ability to be a guitarist in a "wanna be rock band".

quote:

ORIGINAL: zoebob

OK. LEt's redefine it: eating and making babies


So true, so true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I get a great blessing from singing hymns that actually say something of substance, rather than the repetitive and hypnotic choruses that I think are used by people like Todd Bentley for mind control.


Churches should give out tin foil hats whenever contemporary worship is played. Ya know, to ward off Todd Bentley's power to control sound waves.

Hymns are equally repetitious. [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

Church isn't supposed to be fun anyway, so good-bye and good-riddance.


I strongly disagree.

Church isn't meant to be boring. God doesn't want a boring church, nor does He want lukewarm children who don't know joy if it smacked them in the face.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 6:43:42 PM)

quote:

I strongly disagree.

Church isn't meant to be boring. God doesn't want a boring church, nor does He want lukewarm children who don't know joy if it smacked them in the face.


I think you misread my post. I wasn't saying that church is supposed to be boring, I'm just saying that some people act like it is.



DreadPirateRandy -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 6:47:19 PM)

Ah yeah, I did. I'm sorry. I'm used to seeing too many complaints about this subject.



Cloak -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 7:04:00 PM)

There is nothing wrong with fun if it's done in a holy, informative and most importantly innocent way.

Jesus was a man of fun, balance and joy.

Motives are most important in every thing.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/19/2008 9:18:17 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

So, the more boring the better?



So if it is not your way it is boring?

I want to learn. Not have a shallow fluff festival with a wanna be rock band


Nah. If you like a monotone sermon, I don't have a problem with that.

I would also like to say, you can learn and be very much convicted by a sermon that is not boring.

When the pastor brings a jar of manure in...it makes a definite point.

I also know of what you speak when you say charismatics look down on more traditional services. They do. I know because I have heard it preached from the pulpit. The "dead" church....and that is baloney.

I will also say my church has 6 services on the weekend and the first service on Sunday is the traditional service complete with chorus and hymns. Exactly...the same sermon.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/20/2008 8:16:54 AM)

quote:

I get a great blessing from singing hymns that actually say something of substance, rather than the repetitive and hypnotic choruses that I think are used by people like Todd Bentley for mind control.


Okay, I've researched Todd Bentley now, as much as my slow dial-up will let me (interpretation--I didn't get to watch any of the videos) but I don't know what kind of songs he sings. I saw he has a CD for sale, but I couldn't find the lyrics for any of the songs on the CD. I tried searching him on CCLI and it didn't come up with anything. I downloaded a couple of clips from his website, but the twenty-second piece I got wasn't a song--it was music with him saying things like, "Jesus, I love you--I want to know you more" etc. So I'm still pretty much clueless about what hypnotic choruses he sings.



DreadPirateRandy -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/20/2008 3:16:13 PM)

Tood Bentley isn't a singer (that's what makes the statement derisory). He's a.... umm, many would argue what he is, but he's a "Healing Evangelist" or "faith healer". Many would call him a false prophet or false teacher.

He isn't a singer, but during worship services, he will talk. While I personally don't agree with Todd Bentley, saying that he has the ability to control sound waves all for the purpose of mind control is ridiculous and completely insulting to churches that play contemporary or modern worship.

Our pastor will also quote scripture or begin to talk during the instrumental portion of the song. I suppose what he's ultimately trying to do is hypnotize us so that we'll go join a cult and follow purple elephants.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/21/2008 1:07:04 AM)

Todd is a self-proclaimed "faith healer" from Canada who has moved to Florida to use kick-boxing, and other violence, in this healings. As he "heals" people, he knocks them over with punches and kicks with his heavy boots. He brags about an elderly woman "he healed" by kicking her in the (chest? chin?). He "healed" a man with pancreatic cancer (or something like that) by kicking him in the gut. People line up to be kicked and punched in this "healing services," and when he does this, rather than shouting "HEAL!" like others before him, he yells "BAM!" He was a satanist who was "saved" through an "angel" that visits him.



bluestone -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/21/2008 8:21:55 AM)

And at Bentley functions they sing the same choruses over and over and over, like in many churches, including one I attended for a couple of months. All for the purpose of getting people whipped up emotionally, and ready to accept what ever goo spills from the pulpit.

and I doubt any "traditional" people have come into a contemporary church and tell them to dump everything, it was "of man". However, the comteporary crowd under the directio of a new pastor did come into my home church and:

Remove the pews and put in chairs. At great expense and no real reason.
Tell the choir they were no longer needed, and put in a "praise team" that you could not be on if you were over a certain age or weight, or did not "look" the part, and dumped the organist and orchestra. Because they are not "cool". [8|] People who had invested a great part of their lives in that church were tossed aside, and told if they did not like it, they needed to find another church.

All I have experienced in that comtemporary church is arrogance, a disdain for anything of substance, fluffy sermons and boring repetitive music. I watched a live, vibrant church die off due to this stuff, and a church that truly worshipped te Lord wholeheartedly become a stage show and small audience.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/21/2008 9:50:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

Todd is a self-proclaimed "faith healer" from Canada who has moved to Florida to use kick-boxing, and other violence, in this healings. As he "heals" people, he knocks them over with punches and kicks with his heavy boots. He brags about an elderly woman "he healed" by kicking her in the (chest? chin?). He "healed" a man with pancreatic cancer (or something like that) by kicking him in the gut. People line up to be kicked and punched in this "healing services," and when he does this, rather than shouting "HEAL!" like others before him, he yells "BAM!" He was a satanist who was "saved" through an "angel" that visits him.


Wow! I don't need that much excitement in my life! [:D]



bluestone -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/21/2008 9:53:42 AM)

There is a whole thread on Todd in the church forum.

And my apologies to those I have offended. I base my opinions on what I have seen and experienced, and it has been negative to say the least.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Fun in church vs Holiness (7/21/2008 9:58:28 AM)

(((Bluestone))) It sounds like your pastor caused a lot of upheaval in your church. I'm sorry you had to go through that experience.



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