RE: legalism (Full Version)

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JimboFletch -> RE: legalism (7/15/2008 2:03:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

No one's doctrine is 100% infallable. There are basic christian truths that must be met to make someone a christian, but the rest....somewhat debateable.
So how does anyone "meet basic Christian truths in order to be made a Christian" if no doctrine is 100% infallible? Maybe I'm getting lost in your semantics but this makes no sense whatsoever to me!

Now you see the lure of legalism; if one feels they have everything 100%, they can coast in.
[;)]



drmark -> RE: legalism (7/15/2008 3:11:34 PM)

So tell me which basic Christian truth is 100% infallible, Jimbo. Are there any? Or are you a fellow legalist?



JimboFletch -> RE: legalism (7/15/2008 3:16:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

So tell me which basic Christian truth is 100% infallible, Jimbo. Are there any? Or are you a fellow legalist?

You got me there, dr. How does it feel to be on autopilot?
[:D]



drmark -> RE: legalism (7/15/2008 3:33:10 PM)

Apparently the joke's on me because I obviously missed it. I am sincerely trying to understand this definition of "legalism" which seems to me to include acceptance of esssential Christian doctrine. So, let me start very slowly for my own ignorant benefit:

1) Is there any 100% infallible doctrine which a Christian must believe for salvation?
2) If so, then how does that particular belief result in legalism?
3) If not, then why isn't everyone a Christian?



bluestone -> RE: legalism (7/15/2008 3:46:37 PM)

Jesus Christ was crucified , and rose from the dead.
He has brought about remission of our sins.
He sits at the right hand of the Father, interceding on our behalf.
He shall return and sit on the judgement seat. The dead shall rise.
sheep go to heaven, goats go to hell.
Heven is good, hell is bad.
Satan(old slew foot) shall be cast into the lake of fire with all of his minions and followers.

I think all of the above is inerrant. and NOT legalistic.
Believing those who drive blue cars are headed to hell is.[8D]



SonInMe1 -> RE: legalism (7/16/2008 6:26:15 PM)

Exactly like I said. There are the basics, core beliefs that one must believe in to be a christian. Jesus as Lord, who died for our attonement, and rose back to life.

Most of the rest are less than essential. In other words, lets say you believe communion is actually eating the body and flesh of Jesus. While to most this is faulty doctrine, believing in such, will not cause you to lose your salvation.

If you believe people are only saved when they agree 100% with your doctrine, to me, that clearly defines a legalist.



RJR_fan -> RE: legalism (7/16/2008 9:25:57 PM)

quote:

So how does anyone "meet basic Christian truths in order to be made a Christian" if no doctrine is 100% infallible?


The creeds are useful indicators that expose false teachers. None of us is perfect in our understanding -- but we, as God's collective people, have settled on some standards for teachers. Violate these minimal standards, and you are a false teacher, and it is the duty of God's people to join ranks and blow the whistle on the wolves.

In our fact-averse age, some folks think it's "unchristian" to protect God's lambs from wolves.

And God's enemies delight in asserting that it's impossible for us to truly know anything about God, other than what we "feel." Satan loves to lure us away from the facts, so as to befuddle us in our emotional lives.



drmark -> RE: legalism (7/16/2008 10:14:40 PM)

quote:

If you believe people are only saved when they agree 100% with your doctrine, to me, that clearly defines a legalist.
So if I believe that people are saved when they agree with the doctrinal truths set out by bluestone in post #55, then I am a "legalist"? Say what?



SonInMe1 -> RE: legalism (7/17/2008 7:41:27 AM)

I would say post 55 describes what many would consider the core essentials. Believeing in such would not, to me, make someone a legalist.



drmark -> RE: legalism (7/17/2008 8:52:00 AM)

quote:

Believeing in such would not, to me, make someone a legalist.
Thank you, that's all I've wanted to hear since I misunderstood your post #49:

quote:

Only a legalist, with pride in their interpretations, would say their doctrine is without flaw.
So believing in flawless doctrine does NOT by itself make one a legalist!



ta_mosquito -> RE: legalism (7/17/2008 10:48:13 AM)

Seems to me that SonInMe is saying that a legalist will say you have to believe ALL their doctrines (even the nonessentials) 100% to be saved.

DrMark is saying you have to believe just the core essentials 100% and asking if that makes one a legalist.

I think that's where the confusion of the past several posts is coming in.

So by SIM's definition, you have to believe the core essentials plus some side stuff (say a group also had stuff like men having to wear a beard, women having to wear skirts all the time, people cannot go to movies... or even more mainstream stuff such as sprinkling vs. dunking, infant vs. adult baptism, uber-grace vs. uber-holiness) - if you don't believe and follow the side stuff also, then you're not a Christian to the legalist. In other words, their "core essentials" are much, much broader.

Hope that helps to clear up the talking past each other. [;)]



SonInMe1 -> RE: legalism (7/17/2008 6:31:35 PM)

quote:

So believing in flawless doctrine does NOT by itself make one a legalist!


There are no flawless doctrines...in totality.

Belief in the core essentials...that which would make you saved....are set in stone. If one does not believe in these core essentials, then one is not saved.

The rest are up for interpretation.

Lets put it this way...I was saved in a church that believed in a much wider "core essential" doctrines, that to be saved you must do a lot of hoop jumping through. I have found out since then, that you don't have to believe a long list of do's and don't's to be saved.



makarizo -> RE: legalism (7/17/2008 9:52:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe

Lets put it this way...I was saved in a church that believed in a much wider "core essential" doctrines, that to be saved you must do a lot of hoop jumping through. I have found out since then, that you don't have to believe a long list of do's and don't's to be saved.

I was raised in a church full of "supposed to/not supposed to" ought/ought not. shame to your name, and what will others think.

And while I make no character evaluations of the individual members of that church (which is still going strong), I thank God for setting me free from all that extra baggage.



deliveredarling -> RE: legalism (7/20/2008 9:34:42 PM)

CRH, you certainly have had an interesting road! I'm afraid that you have misunderstood what I meant in the op. I am referring to the people who say that being obedient to scripture makes one a legalist. There are those people out there who do not want or desire to be obedient to God's word. They have decided that their relationship can be anything they want it to be with Jesus. they can live however they want to and Jesus is ok with it because He already died for our sins. So instead of them desiring or even being relatively motivated to do it God's way, they tell others that they are in bondage to religion, that they are more focused of rules than relationship. It is all a bunch of pooey and that is certainly putting it nicely.
Jesus wants a relationship with us. He tells us how to do that. He tells us how to live our lives. He teaches us everything we need to know, to know Him and serve Him better! No legalism to it. Those who don't feel that the bible is a necessary road map to living are very, very mistaken and highly mislead. They do not believe in or serve the God of the Bible. They serve and worship a creation of their own making. I get really tired of hearing people call others legalist because we take the bible at it's word, we know He means what He says and it's not open for us to determine if we like it or not. Serving Him is simply not an option for me not to do. I don't do the things that I do, for anyone but Him. I share my experiences here on these forums, in hopes that someone who may be experiencing something I have, will find comfort or something they can take with them on this journey through life. i look for those things in these forums as well.

It just absolutely burns me up to hear someone call another a legalist because the are being obedient. it just goes to show me that people who point things out like need to spend more time in front of the mirror.

I hope that I cleared up what the op meant. Thanks for sharing your experience.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: legalism (7/21/2008 2:21:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone
I grew up in a church where going to the circus was a sin. Dancing was a sin, going to the prom was a sin, owning a television was a sin, wearing a wedding ring was a sin, all jewelry was, in fact , sin. Wearing short sleeves was a sin.

The church was, in fact, legalistic in a big way. they also removed people from membership on a regular basis who fell down in regards to any of the above mentioned situations. . . .

"Tis a glorious church, without spot or wrinkle" . . . .

Bluestone, since reading this thread, I believe without a doubt that you and I attended the same church organization. I have thought so for quite awhile, but have thought the same of some others and have been proven wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone
A pastor lost his preaching credentials when his adult married daughter was "seen" going into a movie theater.

This is the only thing that makes me doubt that we attended the same organization. I don't know about this happening where I attended.



DaveW -> RE: legalism (7/21/2008 7:03:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

Seems to me that SonInMe is saying that a legalist will say you have to believe ALL their doctrines (even the nonessentials) 100% to be saved.
That is just the thing. Many legalists have no "nonessentials." Being baptized according to some particular formula becomes equal with believing in the resurrection.
quote:

say a group also had stuff like men having to wear a beard,
I guess I am just getting old. All the evangelical and fundy churches when I was growing up insisted you could not be saved if you had facial hair or if your hair brushed the tops of your ears......



Wskybtl -> RE: legalism (7/26/2008 9:33:51 AM)

What is a Legalist?

A legalist is one who has chosen a set of rules to live by. Jesus died so we are free to choose. We can choose to do what God says, through His Word, is right for us to do. We can do it because we choose to serve God. To learn His ways. Or we are free to seek that inner god. To listen to our own heart, in which God says is evil. Or we are free to serve the world. That’s what freedom is, a choice to do what we want, to follow the ways of our choice.

If you are made to serve God, then it is legalism, it's done without heart. If you are made to follow your own heart, that too would be legalism. If we come under the authority of men, that also is legalism. We are to have freewill on whom we serve. No church, no man should make us do anything. It is by our freewill we are to serve.

For those who chose to serve God, then The Word should be adhered to. If we are shown through His Word, that we are doing something wrong, or not doing something we should be, then His Word should convict us. God sent us His Word for those who choose to serve Him.

If I choose to serve God, and someone tries to place one of their laws upon me, that is legalism to me because that wasn’t my choice. I chose to serve God, His way, through His Word that I may learn to live by every word of God. If you want to serve God, then open His book and learn His ways. Do as you see Him do.

If you want to follow man, then go to their school, learn their ways, do as you see them do. And if you want to follow your own heart, make your own god, have fun. But don’t try to put your laws/doctrine upon me, and I won’t try putting God’s laws/doctrine on you.

God gave us His ways in case there was one who wanted to follow after Him. Just in case there is one out there that chooses to serve Him. If you claim to serve God, then when someone shows you a word from Him, you should adhere to it. It isn’t legalism if it is your choice. Legalism is adhering to a law. Is it a law if you do it out of love?
What you call legalism may not be so with me. And visa versa. Depending upon whom we love.

If you say you love Jesus, and you are shown that He wants you to “keep” His Commandments even as He kept His Father’s, then you should adhere to His Lordship, or your love and do so. Why call Him Lord and refuse to do what He says? Did you not choose to obey Him?

Legalism isn’t necessarily obeying any law, it is having to obey one in whom you didn’t choose. There are many who claim to love Jesus, but their actions declare them liars. That’s why most cannot tell in whom one serves, "Christians are no different than anyone else." They say they serve Jesus, yet they do not what He says. They want to hide their sins by declaring to have to do anything is legalism. Or to obey is working for your salvation. Excuses that will not hold up much longer. If you choose to serve Jesus, do as He says: “keep” His Commandments. Do it because of love, or because you fear Him as Lord.
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

We know how He kept His Father’s commandments by reading Deuteronomy 6:8 or 11:18.
6:8And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. 11:18Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

Choose this day in whom you shall serve. Who do you call Lord? We are to help each other, correct one another by lining our ways up with His. All who choose Jesus should learn to keep His customs, learn His ways, His laws. To learn of Him.

Jesus is my Lord, it is Jesus that I obey, His customs I do, His laws I keep. Simply because it is Him I love, it was He who provided me my freedom to choose Him. Yes, we live in a land of freedom to choose in whom we will serve. Let no one tell you in whom to serve. Although we are servants to whom we obey.

Adhering to any law is legalism
God has His
Man has theirs
Or make your own…
It’s all legalism, if it isn’t from the heart.



Cloak -> RE: legalism (7/26/2008 1:20:33 PM)

Again here...Legalism is a reality, an ugly reality that rears its ugly face in many of our churches. I've experienced this 1st hand when I was a teenager, young and naive being easily swayed by others. Till one day I couldn't take it any more and stopped going to that church altogether.

I run away from every church that is legalistic or contains legalistic pastors or congregation and I would highly recommend anyone to do so. These people know nothing about God's love. All what they know is religion, church-going and a set of rules and regulations and judging others harshly who do not conform to their guidelines. [:'(]



slimon11 -> RE: legalism (7/28/2008 12:15:53 AM)

I am reading and article in Christianity Today by Daniel Harrell, "The 30-Day Leviticus Challenge". Basically a group tells what they learn from trying to follow the law for a month. I liked this quote from the article:

"The ancient Isrealites were already chosen people before God gave them the Law. The Law's purpose was never to save anybody. Rather, its purpose was to show saved people how to lived a saved life."



DaveW -> RE: legalism (7/28/2008 7:20:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

Now you see the lure of legalism; if one feels they have everything 100%, they can coast in.
Let me give you the other side of this: Unless you have everything 100%, you don't have a chance to get in, no matter how hard you try.

If you do have everything 100%, you at least have a chance (slim) of making it in if you work at it hard enough.



DaveW -> RE: legalism (7/28/2008 7:26:05 AM)

There is a story told by a guy I know who has owned an independant bible bookstore for the last 45 years.

A man came into his store and was of a denomination that insisted that you had to be baptized according to their formula in order to be saved. Part of that formula was the name "Jesus." THis guy had just found out HIS name was not the English "Jesus" but the Hebrew/Aramaic "Yeshua." He was bemoaning the fact that his entire denomimation was going to hell because they had the wrong name........



deliveredarling -> RE: legalism (7/28/2008 7:48:23 AM)

quote:

Legalism isn’t necessarily obeying any law, it is having to obey one in whom you didn’t choose. There are many who claim to love Jesus, but their actions declare them liars. That’s why most cannot tell in whom one serves, "Christians are no different than anyone else." They say they serve Jesus, yet they do not what He says. They want to hide their sins by declaring to have to do anything is legalism. Or to obey is working for your salvation. Excuses that will not hold up much longer. If you choose to serve Jesus, do as He says: “keep” His Commandments. Do it because of love, or because you fear Him as Lord.


I agree with this, very well stated.



deliveredarling -> RE: legalism (7/28/2008 7:50:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slimon11

I am reading and article in Christianity Today by Daniel Harrell, "The 30-Day Leviticus Challenge". Basically a group tells what they learn from trying to follow the law for a month. I liked this quote from the article:

"The ancient Isrealites were already chosen people before God gave them the Law. The Law's purpose was never to save anybody. Rather, its purpose was to show saved people how to lived a saved life."

The NT confirms this sentiment.



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