RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (Full Version)

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mapachito13 -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/15/2008 10:06:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freakofnature
If we drill for oil earnst-while working out alternatives, my kids hopefully won't be paying $20.00 a gallon by the time they are old enough to drive.


And this makes more sense than an all or nothing approach that everyone on both sides seem to advocate.

I also don't believe all these Hubbert's peak production forecasts that have been just as wrong as the Jehovah Witnesses predictions of the end of the world! We're gonna run out of oil by the 80's, no 90's, 2025? [:o] 2050? Oh I give up! I tired of GUESSING! Let's pull another date out of the hat! Or we could use random number generation! It's just as scientific!



freakofnature -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/15/2008 11:52:22 AM)

The beginning of the end or a fluke?

Oil prices decline today


From the report:

quote:

The turnaround may not signal a lasting shift in sentiment — prices have swung violently in recent days as they flirted with record highs. But it does underscore investor uncertainty about the sustainability of sky-high prices and their effect on the broader economy.
emphasis added



davemiller7 -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/15/2008 12:00:19 PM)

GWB cancelling the Executive Order that prohibited drilling maybe helped too. Let's hope and pray this is the beginning of the end.

-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: freakofnature

The beginning of the end or a fluke?

Oil prices decline today


From the report:

quote:

The turnaround may not signal a lasting shift in sentiment — prices have swung violently in recent days as they flirted with record highs. But it does underscore investor uncertainty about the sustainability of sky-high prices and their effect on the broader economy.
emphasis added



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/15/2008 1:00:27 PM)

As I have glanced through this thread, I was a little surprised that no one has mentioned an article from a science journal, that I had heard about, that indicated how recent studies have shown that 50% of the cause of GW is traceable to the clean air. The cleaner the air gets, thanks to the efforts of environmentalists and those prophizing doom because of man, the warmer the Earth is getting and and the weather patterns are changing.

Sorry to say I presently do not have the source, but I thought I would put it out there in case someone else heard of, or read the same article.



davemiller7 -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/15/2008 1:12:08 PM)

Leon, I think what you are referring to was brought up in another thread:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/Current+Events/m_3612430/mpage_1/tm.htm#3615880

Incredible!

-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3

As I have glanced through this thread, I was a little surprised that no one has mentioned an article from a science journal, that I had heard about, that indicated how recent studies have shown that 50% of the cause of GW is traceable to the clean air. The cleaner the air gets, thanks to the efforts of environmentalists and those prophizing doom because of man, the warmer the Earth is getting and and the weather patterns are changing.

Sorry to say I presently do not have the source, but I thought I would put it out there in case someone else heard of, or read the same article.



todd_t -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/15/2008 9:55:16 PM)

quote:

Of course they only want what is best for the world, it could be nothing to do with hoping to gain more control and power by pushing global warming.


This bizarre notion that the UN is somehow run by James Bond villains bent on world domination will never fail to baffle me.



Lizahana -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 7:16:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

quote:

Of course they only want what is best for the world, it could be nothing to do with hoping to gain more control and power by pushing global warming.


This bizarre notion that the UN is somehow run by James Bond villains bent on world domination will never fail to baffle me.


I second that emotion.

Peace and God bless,



mapachito13 -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 7:37:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

quote:

Of course they only want what is best for the world, it could be nothing to do with hoping to gain more control and power by pushing global warming.


This bizarre notion that the UN is somehow run by James Bond villains bent on world domination will never fail to baffle me.


I second that emotion.

Peace and God bless,


The bizarre notion that governments and POLITICAL organizations are entities that we can trust implicitly and that people feel this way about them never fails to baffle me. Politicians wouldn't lie to promote their own agenda, would they? [;)]



Sophie11 -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 8:01:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

quote:

Of course they only want what is best for the world, it could be nothing to do with hoping to gain more control and power by pushing global warming.


This bizarre notion that the UN is somehow run by James Bond villains bent on world domination will never fail to baffle me.


I second that emotion.

Peace and God bless,


The bizarre notion that governments and POLITICAL organizations are entities that we can trust implicitly and that people feel this way about them never fails to baffle me. Politicians wouldn't lie to promote their own agenda, would they? [;)]


And I second that, mapachito.



phreddy -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 9:09:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

quote:

Of course they only want what is best for the world, it could be nothing to do with hoping to gain more control and power by pushing global warming.


This bizarre notion that the UN is somehow run by James Bond villains bent on world domination will never fail to baffle me.



Have you paid much attention to the UN Human Rights council lately? Almost every action they take supports this "bizarre" notion.



todd_t -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 1:31:24 PM)

Returning to the topic at hand:

A report last year by the US Energy Department's Energy Information Administration said that "access to the Pacific, Atlantic, and eastern Gulf regions would not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030. Leasing would begin no sooner than 2012, and production would not be expected to start before 2017." It added, "Because oil prices are determined on the international market, however, any impact on average wellhead prices is expected to be insignificant." - Washington Post article, July 14, 2008

http://mediamatters.org/items/200807150007?f=h_top

I wish that drilling for more oil were truly the most direct way to relieve gas prices, but unfortunately, all signs point to no for that happening in the current world market.



EStan -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 1:34:23 PM)

Then with all due respect, Todd - what, pray tell, would you tell Americans - who are currently paying as much as 1/3 of their take-home pay for fuel for their vehicles - to do?



todd_t -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 5:30:26 PM)

There is no easy answer. That's the problem.

But if necessity is the mother of invention maybe this oil crunch will prove to be a good thing if it forces the world to back off on an oil-based economy, and refine workable alternatives much sooner rather than later. Maybe this will be the trigger for a second industrial revolution that, 100 years from now, makes industries that still work on petroleates look as advanced as the horse & buggy.



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 5:43:05 PM)

quote:


But if necessity is the mother of invention maybe this oil crunch will prove to be a good thing if it forces the world to back off on an oil-based economy, and refine workable alternatives much sooner rather than later. Maybe this will be the trigger for a second industrial revolution that, 100 years from now, makes industries that still work on petroleates look as advanced as the horse & buggy.


With that sentiment in mind, hopefully you'll be in your garage tonight creating a magical new power source for personal transportation, heat, and lighting. After you patent it, and the cash starts rolling in, we'll tax you hard and often and solve poverty, the ultimate two-fer.



todd_t -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 6:07:26 PM)

quote:

With that sentiment in mind, hopefully you'll be in your garage tonight creating a magical new power source for personal transportation, heat, and lighting.


Uh, there's nothing magical about this concept. There are plenty of ways (both existing and in development) to duplicate the energy that oil provides.

Here's just one example....

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 7:15:48 PM)

tood_t,
With all due respect, I believe that the point is that no matter which avenue is taken-oil or alternative fuel- neither will greatly or immediately affect the price of fuel for at least a decade or more.

Also, with alternative fuel, there is a catch that very few people who seem to be against increasing the oil supply do not seem to be taking into affect. If you change the fuel you are going to use, you will also need to change the machinery that either distributes, houses, or uses that fuel. That will add additional years onto its availability, not to mention cost. So, until everything that is needed to change over to alternative fuel, the most cost efficent and smartest thing to do would be to persue both avenues with the same sense of urgency that we used to get into space which many people have been pushing for.

Let us learn from history instead of ignoring or rewriting it. You do not abandon what is already in place until better technology is economically and readily available to replace the old way of doing things.



todd_t -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 7:25:53 PM)

quote:

You do not abandon what is already in place until better technology is available in large enough quantity to replace the old way of doing things.


I agree.

I'm not suggesting that the country go cold turkey on oil tomorrow - however, sooner or later we have to look for a viable method (or several methods) to replace oil when it becomes too cost-prohibitive.

I'm under the opinion that such alternatives are better sought out now, so we can work out the kinks over time.



colliefan -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 8:09:03 PM)

And just when are there going to be hybrid trains, semis, ambulances, police cars, school buses, mail trucks, etc? And what happens to a poor family who cannot afford one? What happens to a large family who cannot fit into a smart car?

How much of the mountains and outer banks of NC – the only places where the wind blows on a fairly consistent basis – will need to be cleared for the choppa-mattic windmills? The environmentalist wackos have permanently sealed off a great portion of the Outer Banks to protect a species of bird during their nesting season. What happens if a rare purple-spotted sand flea is discovered and the wackos petition to stop the placement of windmills? And what happened when the wind doesn’t blow? The environmentalist wackos are destroying the world economy on a lie.



colliefan -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 8:10:37 PM)

quote:

to replace oil when it becomes too cost-prohibitive.


the only way for it to become cost-prohibitive is to stop all drilling



todd_t -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/16/2008 9:26:52 PM)

quote:

And just when are there going to be hybrid trains, semis, ambulances, police cars, school buses, mail trucks, etc?


New technology always takes a long time to implement, and is at first, always expensive. Look at the personal computer when it first came into being in the late 1970s; only the wealthy could afford them. But today, they are very prevalent and affordable for almost anyone.

This transition did not occur overnight. But over time, the same process will apply to hybrid technologies and their off-shoots.

quote:

The environmentalist wackos are destroying the world economy on a lie.


Nice to see Rush Limbaugh's propaganda has settled in so nicely into his masses, vis-a-vis his own ad hominem lie that all environmentalists are extremist nuts and care more for endangered snakes than people.

Further, environmentalism has so little to do with world oil markets that's its ridiculous to even make the comparison. It has to do with massive consumption of a limited resource that is now beginning to run low.

quote:

the only way for it to become cost-prohibitive is to stop all drilling


I have no idea what you're talking about.

The definition of "cost-prohibitive" is when the expense of something outweighs any long-term benefits derived from it - for example, taking a job that requires such a long commute that the fuel costs incurred defeat any salary benefits that job would otherwise afford (e.g. one step forward, two steps back).

The same applies to a day when driving cars may become so expensive that they'll become more trouble than they're worth. It's happening with now in California with many people trading in their cars for Vespas which get 70 MPG.



mapachito13 -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/17/2008 1:18:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

And just when are there going to be hybrid trains, semis, ambulances, police cars, school buses, mail trucks, etc? And what happens to a poor family who cannot afford one? What happens to a large family who cannot fit into a smart car?

How much of the mountains and outer banks of NC – the only places where the wind blows on a fairly consistent basis – will need to be cleared for the choppa-mattic windmills? The environmentalist wackos have permanently sealed off a great portion of the Outer Banks to protect a species of bird during their nesting season. What happens if a rare purple-spotted sand flea is discovered and the wackos petition to stop the placement of windmills? And what happened when the wind doesn’t blow? The environmentalist wackos are destroying the world economy on a lie.


I am not real fond of the birdie blenders myself. I think nuclear and solar power coupled with oil could diversify us enough to become more self-sufficient.



bzirk -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/17/2008 10:32:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3

tood_t,
With all due respect, I believe that the point is that no matter which avenue is taken-oil or alternative fuel- neither will greatly or immediately affect the price of fuel for at least a decade or more.


Actually, that's not accurate. Just the announcement of the ban lifted caused oil to go down in price. Speculation is a very real dynamic at work in the high oil prices, and news of the ban being lifted definitely is having an effect. Now we've got to make good by actually drilling for oil.

But my question to those who see this situation as an either/or is why can't we pursue oil and every other alternative feasible?

Don't know what I thnk of the bills mentioned in this article, but these guys are getting the right idea:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/17/congress.oil/index.html

Here's the reason why they're getting it:

quote:

"There is a lot of pressure being put on back home," he said. "I don't care if you're from a Republican state, a Democratic state or a mixed state. Everybody is hearing, 'By golly, we need you to do something.' "


I think that's a quote from Sen. Saxby Chambliss

Further reading:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i5TtajgUpSm7KY5jf-lCJGHBB-tAD91V47KG0



mapachito13 -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/17/2008 11:00:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

Now we've got to make good by actually drilling for oil.


Aye, there's the rub! Talk is extremely cheap! Especially from a politician!

quote:

But my question to those who see this situation as an either/or is why can't we pursue oil and every other alternative feasible?



Exactly!!! Diversification is always the key to success.



todd_t -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/17/2008 11:22:05 AM)

quote:

Speculation is a very real dynamic at work in the high oil prices, and news of the ban being lifted definitely is having an effect. Now we've got to make good by actually drilling for oil.


Then the Enron loophole must be closed to reign speculators in (thanks Phil Gramm).

I hope whomever the next president is does it; I would not expect Bush to take any action on the issue before he leaves office.

quote:

Just the announcement of the ban lifted caused oil to go down in price.


Or maybe the market is finally beginning to normalize. I will agree, though, that while I have been a skeptic of expanding off-shore drilling (within states that would permit it) and its impact on oil prices, perhaps you're right that Congress lifting the ban would provide more of a psychological control on the market and ease up its volatility.



bzirk -> RE: Let the Drilling Begin!!!! (7/17/2008 11:25:53 AM)

Todd,

That sounds good, but we're in a global economy. The best thing is to beat speculators at their own game, and that's what's happening with the plan to drill.



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