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ORIGINAL: Liveloved

1. Did Jesus personally forgive His enemies?

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2. Did He exhort His disciples to forgive their enemies?

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3. Does Scripture teach that under all circumstances we must always forgive?

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4. Does the offender, the one who has done wrong, need to meet a condition before he is forgiven?

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5. Is repentance necessary before forgiveness is pronounced?

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6. If there is no repentance, am I justified in harboring ill feelings against him?

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7. Am I to treat the offender as if he has done no wrong?

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8. Does God ever forgive where there is no repentance?

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9. Does God command me to pray for those who have offended yet not repented?

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10. Is it Christ's example, though He did not forgive, to pray to His Father to forgive him?

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1. Did Jesus personally forgive His enemies? Y / N

The answer is NO. He prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

2. Did He exhort His disciples to forgive their enemies? Y / N

The answer is NO. In the Sermon on the Mount, He taught, "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you" (Matt 5:44). We are not exhorted to forgive but to pray.

3. Does Scripture teach that under all circumstances we must always forgive? Y / N

Again the answer is NO. God's word tells us that if our brother trespasses against us to rebuke him. And if he repents, to forgive him. And if he trespasses against you seven times a day, and seven times in a day he repents, you are to forgive him.

4. Does the offender, the one who has done wrong, need to meet a condition before he is forgiven? Y / N

The answer is YES. He must repent before forgiveness is pronounced. The one who has wronged us must judge himself for his wrong and give evidence of his sorrow over it.

5. Is repentance necessary before forgiveness is pronounced? Y / N

The answer is YES. But this does not mean we can harbor ill feeling or malice or hatred in our hearts to this individual.

6. If there is no repentance, am I justified in harboring ill feelings against him? Y / N

The answer is NO. There can be no root of bitterness.

7. Am I to treat the offender as if he has done no wrong? Y / N

The answer is NO. To treat the offender as if no wrong had been done would be to condone the offense.

8. Does God ever forgive where there is no repentance? Y / N

The answer is NO. Scripture clearly tells us that "if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (IJohn 1:9).

9. Does God command me to pray for those who have offended yet not repented? Y / N

The answer is YES. While no malice or hatred is allowed and we must not treat them as if there as been no offense, we are commanded to pray for them (Matt 5:44).

10. Is it Christ's example, though He did not forgive (the offender), to pray to His Father to forgive him (the offender)? Y / N

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Now that we have the answers are we ready for the lesson?

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I flunked.

I never was a good tester. Oh well....

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ORIGINAL: Liveloved

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Now that we have the answers are we ready for the lesson?

Being ready for a lesson is not dependent on someone other than yourself. Readiness to learn must come from within. If you have thoughts or questions, I'm willing to discuss them.[:)]

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ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Are there any questions you'd be willing to discuss?

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Here's the point,It's one thing to say this is what I see what do you think,and another to feel you have the answer and not be forth coming with it.I'm still waiting to hear from you what is the lesson you feel God is telling you to share with us.

I'm sure you have one or else you wouldn't have posted to begin with.So I'm ready for the lesson if you're willing to give it.

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I believe you will find the root of where we disagree to be what I hinted at in my response to question #2. We must always remind ourselves that Christ's death, burial and resurrection has changed everything, for all of time.

If we do not separate that which was from that which is , we are not allowing the truth to take us where it will.

God's forgiveness of us is unconditional. Christ personally went to the cross (death), shedding His blood, for the forgiveness of all. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins, (Hebrews 9:22). None of us asked Him to die for us, nor did He consult any of us before He did so, He simply did it. It is Jesus Christ's sacrifice, His shed blood and death on that cross that provides forgiveness. <----- That is a period.

God made a way for forgiveness to happen through Christ's sacrificial death for us. And without Christ's death, forgiveness would not be possible. I do not argue that forgiveness has been provided for all. But it you continue with that logic, it means that all men are saved because all men have been forgiven and will not be held accountable. And that is not true.

The offer of forgiveness stands---from God to all men. But that offer does not save men. That offer must be received, believed by each individual or there is no forgiveness. And that requires repentance for apart from that, the offer is spurned.

Where the truth takes us in regards to forgiveness, as new creatures living under the new covenant, is to Colossians 3:13...Forgive as the Lord forgave you. Was it true before the cross, under the law, that in order to get forgiven one had to forgive? Absolutely. Is it true after the cross? Absolutely not! Under the law it is do this to get that, under grace it is do this because of what Christ has already done for you.

But what has Christ done for us? How has He forgiven us? He has offered us forgiveness and we have received that forgiveness by repenting of our sin. So if I forgive as Christ forgives, I stand ready and willing, holding forgiveness in my heart for all wrongs done to me. But to forgive, the individual who did wrong must repent and confess that wrongdoing. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us is predicated on our having repented. If we have repented and been forgiven by God, we then must forgive those who have sinned against us and repented of their sin.

We love because He first loved us. We are kind to others because He is kind to us. We help others in need because He helps us in our needs. And we forgive others unconditionally because He has forgiven us unconditionally.

Unconditional forgiveness means universal salvation. God's forgiveness must be received and it is only received through repentance. That is a condition.

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ORIGINAL: Liveloved

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Here's the point,It's one thing to say this is what I see what do you think,and another to feel you have the answer and not be forth coming with it.I'm still waiting to hear from you what is the lesson you feel God is telling you to share with us.

I'm sure you have one or else you wouldn't have posted to begin with.So I'm ready for the lesson if you're willing to give it.

I'm sorry, sonofone. Perhaps I approached the subject wrongly. My intent/desire was to facilitate thought about forgiveness and why we believe what we do. So I made up the quiz as a way of doing that. I was trying to make it interactive, not just me telling you (and others) what I think. Sounds like I didn't do so well.

When I gave the answers, I thought I was being straightforward and that that would invite further discussion. I was clear from the beginning that I think this is a greatly misunderstood concept and that we needed to seek teaching on it. I'm hoping that this quiz and the answers and, hopefully, another further discussion will be incentive for people thinking about and seeking out what God says about forgiveness.

Do I think the answers I have given are correct answers? Absolutely. And I desire to discuss them with others. What more can I do? LL

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God made a way for forgiveness to happen through Christ's sacrificial death for us. And without Christ's death, forgiveness would not be possible. I do not argue that forgiveness has been provided for all. But it you continue with that logic, it means that all men are saved because all men have been forgiven and will not be held accountable. And that is not true.

The offer of forgiveness stands---from God to all men. But that offer does not save men. That offer must be received, believed by each individual or there is no forgiveness. And that requires repentance for apart from that, the offer is spurned.

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But what has Christ done for us? How has He forgiven us? He has offered us forgiveness and we have received that forgiveness by repenting of our sin. So if I forgive as Christ forgives, I stand ready and willing, holding forgiveness in my heart for all wrongs done to me. But to forgive, the individual who did wrong must repent and confess that wrongdoing. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us is predicated on our having repented. If we have repented and been forgiven by God, we then must forgive those who have sinned against us and repented of their sin.

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Unconditional forgiveness means universal salvation.

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Forgiveness involves trespass,where there is no law,no rightful expectation of obedience/treatment there can be no trespass.Forgiveness is also two fold,it is first granted or denied by the aggrieved party on behalf of the trespasser,it is then asked for/received from the trespasser of the aggrieved party.

I agree. And I think this (forgiveness being twofold) is where alot of misunderstanding originates---I don't think most make this differentiation. And although your terminology is different from my own, I think we are saying/thinking the same thing. The way I put it is that the aggrieved party holds forgiveness in their heart toward the offender. That is where is remains until there is confession and repentance by the trespasser. Both actions are necessary (holding forgiveness/repentance) before the transaction of forgiveness is accomplished.

There is also a difference between human forgiveness and divine forgiveness.Human forgiveness does not require penalties be met,or satisfied before forgiveness is granted,whereas divine forgiveness requires that restitution be made prior to forgiveness being received.

I don't know where this distinction that you are making comes from. Are you saying this is scriptural?

In both cases it is not necessary that the trespasser ask for this forgiveness in order for the aggrieved party to grant forgiveness.As was stated earlier forgiveness is first granted by the aggrieved party before the trespasser even ask or may even have awareness that he has trespassed.

This is where we differ. And I would offer the father of the prodigal son as an example. Although he held forgiveness in his heart toward his prodigal son, the son did not receive that forgiveness until he returned and had repented. Then the transaction of forgiveness was completed.
Also the king in Matthew 18 would be another example. Jesus gives the example of a king who is settling accounts. A slave is brought to the king who owes him a significant debt. The slave had no means to repay the debt and ends up prostrating himself and begging for mercy. And mercy is granted. Forgiveness was being held for him but the transaction was not completed until he begged for mercy.

Jesus most certainly forgave men their sin before he asked God to do so at the cross.He could not ask God to do something that he himself had not already done,in fact it was for forgiveness of sins that he gave his life to begin with.

How do you know Jesus had forgiven men? He asks His Father to forgive them.

When Adam trespassed God forgave him,but not without penalty.When Abel was murdered his blood cried out for vengeance,and not only his blood but the blood of the future innocent. Jesus was murdered his blood cried out for forgiveness,if it didn't then none of us would have been here today,for God would have had to repay us all the penalty of killing his only begotten Son.

The voice of thy brother’s blood cries.’’ He speaks as if the blood itself were both witness and prosecutor, because God’s own knowledge testified against him and God’s own justice demanded satisfaction. Observe here, 1. Murder is a crying sin, none more so. Blood calls for blood, the blood of the murdered for the blood of the murderer; it cries in the dying words of Zechariah (2 Chr. 24:22), The Lord look upon it and require it; or in those of the souls under the altar (Rev. 6:10), How long, Lord, holy, and true? The patient sufferers cried for pardon (Father, forgive them), but their blood cries for vengeance. Though they hold their peace, their blood has a loud and constant cry, to which the ear of the righteous God is always open. 2. The blood is said to cry from the ground, the earth, which is said to open her mouth to receive his brother’s blood from his hand, v. 11. The earth did, as it were, blush to see her own face stained with such blood, and therefore opened her mouth to hide that which she could no hinder. When the heaven revealed Cain’s iniquity, the earth also rose up against him (Job 20:27), and groaned on being thus made subject to vanity, Rom. 8:20, 22. Cain, it is likely, buried the blood and the body, to conceal his crime; but "murder will out.’’ He did not bury them so deep but the cry of them reached heaven. 3. In the original the word is plural, thy brother’s bloods, not only his blood, but the blood of all those that might have descended from him; or the blood of all the seed of the woman, who should, in like manner, seal the truth with their blood. Christ puts all on one score (Mt. 23:35); or because account was kept of every drop of blood shed. How well is it for us that the blood of Christ speaks better things than that of Abel! Heb. 12:24. Abel’s blood cried for vengeance, Christ’s blood cries for pardon.

Jesus forgave us first,and then as our mediator stayed the hand of God in judging/holding our sins against us.Now in order for us to benefit from this forgiveness we must receive it,by way of believing in the one who has granted us forgiveness.

This is the point that Jesus made concerning forgiveness of believers.We are to give our brothers a chance to be restored when they trespass us.We are to make them aware of their trespass so that they can be restored to proper fellowship with us.

What you are calling restoration is giving opportunity for the forgiveness transaction to be completed---the sin is exposed, the sinner reproved and given a chance to repent and receive the forgiveness offered. If that takes place, the restoration (as you call it) or the forgiveness transaction (as I call it) has taken place. It is the same condition---for forgiveness to be transacted, there must be repentance.

We stand predisposed to release them and hold them harmless of this trespass before they even request it,just as God does on behalf of the sinner.He is predisposed to forgive us our debt,however we can not benefit from his predisposition of our sin, if we do not receive it.In much the same way there are occasions when one does not know that he has trespassed,in which case we must make them aware.

Look at the example of Joseph to his brothers he had forgiven them their trespass even before they asked for it,yet they remained in terror of their trespass against him until they themselves asked for his pardon.

And again I would say that Joseph held forgiveness in his heart toward his brothers (as the prodigal's father did, as the king did, as God does and as we are to). However the forgiveness was transacted at the time his brothers repented of their sin and asked his forgiveness (Gen 50:17).

Just as God has forgiven us our trespasses for the sake of Jesus, not counting our sins against us,not requiring us to make restitution,we are to do the same for our fellow man.We grant this forgiveness without penalty,or request.

When Stephen was stoned he forgave them,did not lay it to their charge without requirement or request and asked God to do the same.

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God's forgiveness of us is unconditional. Christ personally went to the cross (death), shedding His blood, for the forgiveness of all. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins, (Hebrews 9:22). None of us asked Him to die for us, nor did He consult any of us before He did so, He simply did it. It is Jesus Christ's sacrifice, His shed blood and death on that cross that provides forgiveness. <----- That is a period.

If God's forgiveness is unconditional, all men are forgiven and no man will have sin to account for at judgment. Is that what you are saying?

As I said to sonofone, the prodigal father illustrates God's forgiveness. The prodigal son leaves. The father remains at home, holding forgiveness in his heart for his errant son. The son returns and confesses his wrongdoing. And the father's forgiveness is received. The forgiveness transaction is completed following the errant son's return and confession, not before.
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God made a way for forgiveness to happen through Christ's sacrificial death for us. And without Christ's death, forgiveness would not be possible. I do not argue that forgiveness has been provided for all. But it you continue with that logic, it means that all men are saved because all men have been forgiven and will not be held accountable. And that is not true.

The offer of forgiveness stands---from God to all men. But that offer does not save men. That offer must be received, believed by each individual or there is no forgiveness. And that requires repentance for apart from that, the offer is spurned.

This is only true if forgiveness is salvation...but it is not, is it?

What is salvation? Can one be born again to new life through the Spirit apart from forgiveness? Can that take place apart from repentance?

Where the truth takes us in regards to forgiveness, as new creatures living under the new covenant, is to Colossians 3:13...Forgive as the Lord forgave you. Was it true before the cross, under the law, that in order to get forgiven one had to forgive? Absolutely. Is it true after the cross? Absolutely not! Under the law it is do this to get that, under grace it is do this because of what Christ has already done for you.

Forgive as the Lord has forgiven me? If I do not confess my sin, do I receive forgiveness? Is confession needless? Is repentance needless? I forgive when the offender has repented as the Lord has forgiven me when I have repented. And until the offender repents, forgiveness is held, waiting to be dispensed, and we are to intercede for that repentance, longing for the wayward son/friend/brother to return home.

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But what has Christ done for us? How has He forgiven us? He has offered us forgiveness and we have received that forgiveness by repenting of our sin. So if I forgive as Christ forgives, I stand ready and willing, holding forgiveness in my heart for all wrongs done to me. But to forgive, the individual who did wrong must repent and confess that wrongdoing. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us is predicated on our having repented. If we have repented and been forgiven by God, we then must forgive those who have sinned against us and repented of their sin.

Christ's forgiveness of us is not conditional, nor is our forgiveness of others to be conditional. None of us asked Him to die for us, nor did He consult any of us before He did so, He simply did it.

We love because He first loved us. We are kind to others because He is kind to us. We help others in need because He helps us in our needs. And we forgive others unconditionally because He has forgiven us unconditionally.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I John 1:9 This is the condition---if we confess, then He forgives.

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Unconditional forgiveness means universal salvation.

Once again, this would only be true if forgiveness is salvation. But it is not, salvation is the receiving of life, and that life is in Christ, as is our forgiveness. It is by receiving Him, that we are saved...

Ephesians 1:7
"In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace"

Romans 5:10
"For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"

And again I would say that to be "in Him" there had to be repentance/confession and turning from sin. If not, then all men stand forgiven and sin will not bar any from entry into the kingdom.