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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/19/2008 9:55:33 AM
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Jenny-Fair
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Well, LisA, I guess that explains your avatar.
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/19/2008 10:21:53 AM
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creationtalk
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I've posted before why I homeschool.
There are many reasons. Mainly I homeschool because it is best for MY child. He is learning and thriving. That is most important.
Another really opinionated post:
However, I would never have even considered homeschooling had it not been for the experience of teaching basic algebra to a few of the nation's (then) future teachers. The majority of education majors who passed through my classes could not do basic algebra. Some could not ADD without the help of a calculator. And even though I refused to give a passing grade to any person who could not do the basics of my class, eventually these people were passed and went on to teach students. Someone PLEASE tell me HOW, someone who cannot solve the problem: 2+x=7 can teach a child to solve this problem? One of the things I have learned from my years of teaching is that unless you understand what you are teaching, it is very difficult to teach another. I have taught math, physics, chemistry, and astronomy. If I did not understand something I was trying to teach, I can GUARANTEE that my students, unless they were extremely bright and did not really need me, did not understand it when I was done.
And please, before someone tells me all about the certification process...I have experience with it in 3 states and experience with education classes in 5. MAYBE education classes and certification help some people teach in a classroom setting. I'm not convinced that this is true for all.
There were some education majors in my classes and whom I have met who were teaching because they loved the children and they loved teaching. These are the ones who will spend 3 hours one evening working with the teacher LEARNING how to do the problems because they want to know...so they can teach. There are some who have their hearts in the right place, but do not understand what it takes to truly teach, for all their education classes and certifications.
I am not knocking PS teachers in general. My father was one until he retired. My mother was one for many years. I had many teachers throughout my school years who were wonderful teachers.
However, standards for teachers have been continually lowered. Requirements on PS teachers that have nothing to do with TEACHING are impacting their ability to teach effectively...if at all. Many PS have gone from teaching children to read, write, and do math to teaching them the "right" way to think, what to believe, and to reject the "old" standards of right and wrong. One day, my son will make up his mind for himself what he believes, and it might not be what I would hope and pray it would be. But if I turn him over to a school that may very well be teaching him things that are contrary to what I want him to know, then the odds of him choosing RIGHT go down.
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/19/2008 11:05:35 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2918
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
Well, LisA, I guess that explains your avatar.
Oh, that wasn't about me. It was actually done in sarcasm at the Mensa thread on this site when we first migrated to the new system in 2005. I thought there was a lot of haughtiness in that thread, hence the avatar.
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may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/19/2008 11:12:33 AM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
Wow! I didn't know this desire to stifle curiosity, talent and initiative at an early age was a certified-teacher problem!
We had a similar experience, but I thought it was a one-off.
My dh "taught" our daughter to read when she was four in one fun-filled half-hour phonics lesson and off she ran with it. (We all know children learn to read, no one actually "teaches" them, just facilitates their learning of it when they are ready.)
We were considering an expensive Christian school, and luckily the principal was our neighbor. One day I saw her husband out jogging and he stopped to chat. (He was also our realtor.) I asked him what his wife would think of a child that learned to read at four.
He said that she would think the child's parents did that child a great disservice, robbing the child of the "group learning experience". 
Saved us buckets of money over the years, but how sad for all the "early" readers in the world! And how tragic for our economy that little children are discouraged from individual effort and joy in learning.
"Group learning experience" my foot. "Controlled group thought experience" is more like it.
I am quite sure we would never have heard such phrase from any champions of liberty and progress, like Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin! 
What is amazing is how much so many of us have been affected by this kind of thinking. I've noticed that it's so much with those of us who have been schooled in the group setting that we seem to often go through a deprogramming when we homeschool, and if the deprogramming is not accomplished, then those people often give up on homeschooling. What I'm talking about is a type of awakening that comes where the distinction between learning and schooling becomes clear. I thought I was one of the only ones afflicted with thinking of learning as schooling, but as I get older and talk to more and more homeschoolers, I see that this is more common than I thought.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/19/2008 3:06:54 PM
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Jenny-Fair
Posts: 6288
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quote:
a type of awakening that comes where the distinction between learning and schooling becomes clear
Indeed, this is far more important than any curriculum choice, when or where you school, what your own educational background is, your finances, or anything else!
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Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
My Blog
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/20/2008 11:17:13 AM
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Ellie-Mae
Posts: 3732
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From: The EMPIRE state!
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I am amazed how many people have been held back from learning in school. I also learned to read before attending K. I was punished for reading faster than the other kids in first grade... literally. I was forced to read... one... word... at... a... time. It was so bad that I was put in a remedial program for even though one teacher I had would sit me outside the door with another student to help them read better, and I ran out of work to do in my work book and was given another one that only I and one other student was working in... racing each other. It didn't make any sense. It is no wonder that so many schools have a hard time competing with our testing scores. They shoot themselves in the foot!
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/20/2008 9:49:51 PM
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cindybode
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
Wow! I didn't know this desire to stifle curiosity, talent and initiative at an early age was a certified-teacher problem!
In defense of the good certified teachers out there (and there certainly are many!), it's not really about that. It's about logistics. When you have a classroom of 30 kids, you need to have them on the same page as much as possible. A child who takes off and works ahead, or obviously has talents and abilities that his/her classmates don't share, creates a huge amount of work for the teacher. What is that teacher supposed to do with the kid who obviously already knows the material? Basically, they have 3 choices - get the kid into another, more appropriate class, give that child a whole 'nuther set of lessons, or force the child to go along with the rest of the class. Guess which most of them choose to do?
I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that because of the way the education system is set up, teachers don't often have many choices. Personally I would love to see the whole age segregation thing tossed out the window. If we must have a public education system, and I suppose we must, it would function much better if children were simply placed into classes that matched their abilities, without worrying about age or grade levels. Hmmm, sounds kinda like homeschooling, doesnt' it?
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If you lock in any creature, from rats to chickens to pigs to people, 10 to 30 or more in a box and force feed them you'll create little monsters. Confinement Education School Operations (CESOs) just don't compare to naturally pastured free-ranged kids.
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/21/2008 11:02:25 AM
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shadowspring
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I could agree with you cindybode if the answer to my question had been:
"I know what my wife would say. She would say that you have just made her job more difficult because it would be easier for her if all twenty students were starting out in the same place academically."
Instead it was reported to me that she believed parents had done their child a disservice by robbing them of the group learning experience.
Complete difference of perspective, and one obviously taught in education classes as I was not the only one told this:
quote:
But there was an emotional component to the story as well. The teacher had said my mom did something wrong. I had been taught to respect teachers. My five year-old self could not put these two things together and make sense of them. Why would my mother do something wrong like that? I was totally bewildered and for the first time in conscious memory, I didn't have anyone I could talk to about this. I felt like I had to sort it out all on my own, except to tell God. Eventually I concluded it was the kindergarten teacher who was wrong and I did not like school so much anymore.
quote:
My mother and my Aunt Bess, who was like a grandmother to me, had already taught me to read before I got to kindergarten. I also knew how to write (cursive as well as print). I loved to write my name in cursive, but the teacher would almost blow a gasket when she saw me doing it. She would have us all print our names, and I did that, but I wrote in cursive as well. One day I was printing and not writing in cursive but she lost it when she saw that I was printing my name like this: LisA. I've always hated how a lower case 'a' looks, and whenever I print my name, I still print it with a small capital 'a.' She screamed at me and yanked me out of my chair for doing that, and then not long after that she called a meeting with my mother and told her that I was developmentally delayed. She took a demeanor of consoling my mother and telling her she could help me as much as she could. My mother went home in tears and told my dad, and his reaction was to laugh and say it was [something I can't name on this site ].
BTW, my brother's pre-school teacher told my mother the same thing 10 years later. Nevermind my brother could read and write before kindergarten as well.
The emphasis IS on stifling personal initiative, and on arrogantly blaming parents for ruining children, not annoyance with parents for making their job more difficult.
Huge difference to me!
I have nothing personal against certified teachers either. My best friend is a retired teacher, and worthy of all respect. She does not have much good to say about education colleges of the past twenty years... 
Edited to change emphasis
< Message edited by shadowspring -- 7/21/2008 12:30:23 PM >
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"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/21/2008 11:59:53 AM
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sen10tious
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cindybode
In defense of the good certified teachers out there (and there certainly are many!), it's not really about that. It's about logistics.
'Logistics' is a copout. Your own solution, below, shows that!
I have known good certified teachers. They shared a common trait: They all admitted that a lot of their certification courses were bunk. The certification process does promote conformity, and it has a tendency to brainwash the teacher candidates into believing the way they were taught is the best way. Insofar as it does that, it also stifles curiosity and initiative, and it constrains talent. When you find a good certified teacher, chances are they are good in spite of certification, not because of it.
quote:
If we must have a public education system, and I suppose we must, it would function much better if children were simply placed into classes that matched their abilities, without worrying about age or grade levels.]
Yes! Do you suppose you can get the departments of education at the universities to see it this way? But it is so much easier and takes so much less creativity and initiative to simply to read a number off a birth certificate.
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/21/2008 12:56:04 PM
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cynthia
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My 14yo daughter, TL, and I were discussing why her dad and I started homeschooling to begin with. It was interesting to think back on what we were thinking back then.
I had been teaching my daughter things along the way, but didn’t think much of it. It was just part of parenting. I had not taught her how to read and thought of that in the realm of “schooling.” I didn’t have any idea of how to teach a child to read and thought it must be some mysterious thing that required a lot of knowledge. I read a book called Why Johnny Can’t Read and What We Can Do About It. It was an interesting book. The authors had developed a reading program that I purchased. I still have that book and am still using it for spelling with two of my children. I’ve had to tape it back together.
We began homeschooling, because there was no way we were sending our children to public school in our area. We could not afford private school unless I went back to work, which wasn’t going to happen with two younger children who would then need childcare. Dh was working swing shift and didn’t want his daughter in school anyway. So we felt forced into homeschooling.
Having this conversation with my daughter, I realized that I have finally gotten over most of the “school” mentality now that we are beginning high school. Each phase had seemed like the hard phase, but when I got into researching and finding out what we need to do, it wasn’t hard. Sure it’s hard work, but it doesn’t take a degree to figure it out. It takes making sure I am educated in what she needs and how to provide it for her. Looking back I forget how unsure of myself I have been and how I was always waiting for the part that was going to need professional assistance.
Homeschooling really is an excellent educational option. Parents really are the best teachers. There is so much available out there to help us teach our children. We just need to have an atmosphere of education and learning in our homes and be willing to instruct our children along the way in order for our children to learn what they will need as they mature and grow.
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/21/2008 4:43:51 PM
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cindybode
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From: Northwest PA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sen10tious
When you find a good certified teacher, chances are they are good in spite of certification, not because of it.
I totally agree with you.
quote:
If we must have a public education system, and I suppose we must, it would function much better if children were simply placed into classes that matched their abilities, without worrying about age or grade levels.]
quote:
Yes! Do you suppose you can get the departments of education at the universities to see it this way? But it is so much easier and takes so much less creativity and initiative to simply to read a number off a birth certificate.
No, I don't think they are ever likely to see it that way, but I can have my fantasies, can't I? 
I think maybe I didn't explain myself clearly, since we actually agree. I was talking about the good teachers, who would love to encourage learning, initiative, and talent but really don't have the ability to do so in a classroom full of kids. I wasn't talking about the teachers who go along with all the rubbish they are spoon fed in their certification programs. Sorry, didn't mean to start a ruckus.
_____________________________
If you lock in any creature, from rats to chickens to pigs to people, 10 to 30 or more in a box and force feed them you'll create little monsters. Confinement Education School Operations (CESOs) just don't compare to naturally pastured free-ranged kids.
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/22/2008 10:44:22 AM
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judii1
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I think the ps school teachers should be able to just TEACH!
Because of NCLB, most teachers have to teach to the state test. I know when my Gs was in third grade, the teacher spent tons of time on learning how to address an envelope and write a letter. Would you like to know what showed up on the state test that year?
Not to get too far off base, but has anyone ever heard of Teach for America?
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/22/2008 11:52:33 AM
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Jenny-Fair
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I agree that the state testing thing from NCLB is exacerbating a problem, however, the system was not good before that, either. Institutionalizing children is simply NOT the way to go.
_____________________________
Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
My Blog
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/22/2008 3:58:27 PM
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shadowspring
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If I thought Teach for America could actually make a significant difference in the lives of impoverished children, I would be looking at a second career in education.
Their aspirations are noble. But I don't think teachers are the cause or the solution to the poor performance of impoverished children.
It's a poverty of spirit that is really destroying these children's chance at a good life. And since teachers can't share the gospel with the children or their parents, there is no hope of lasting change.
Michael's mom and her sister both talk a good talk about caring about their children's education. The reality- they won't get up and make breakfast for their children, won't walk them to the bus stop, won't drive them if they're late, won't go to parent-teacher conferences, won't make sure they get a decent night's sleep (and actually keep them up late at night) won't help with home work, and then yell at them for "not going to school" but only when threatened with truancy charges.
A good teacher (even if it was a succession of good teachers in all subject and all grade levels!) will not make an appreciable difference in the lives of these impoverished children.
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/22/2008 4:59:29 PM
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Karaboo2
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BTW, has anyone noticed that MaverickMom hasn't been online since the 18th? I'm not sure she is even aware there is a whole thread discussing her post ...
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/22/2008 5:12:45 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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From: WA
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Yeah, I did notice. I am not sure why that is. I didn't THINK she was a hit and run poster since she posted in several areas while she was here. Perhaps she forgot, or perhaps she has been very busy.
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Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
My Blog
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/24/2008 11:50:06 AM
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maverickmom
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Joined: 7/17/2008
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Wow!
I wanted to thank everybody for their responses, and I also wanted to say something else, because one person said something about me being a teacher, well, I AM a teacher, sort of...but I am a CCD teacher at my church. I did briefly teach in public school before my children were born. I have also home schooled both of my children, one is now in college pre med, the other just graduated from public high school, or as I would call it a moral waste land.
I am curious about people home schooling because I am supportive of it, and I know many people are not.
I have been involved with people who home school and shouldn't, but then in this crazy world, not all people who are disciples are good disciples, so that's where prayer and guidance come in...right?
I remembered a great quote, here it is...
"It is not the credentials, but the concern." Max Lucado
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/24/2008 11:52:32 AM
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maverickmom
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I am not a hit and run poster, actually I am a volunteer pastoral counselor at my church and had some pretty serious issues at church with others, and also on my home front. I will visit here and often, however as an ordained minister and active volunteer at my church, I sometimes have free time, but not often.
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/24/2008 11:54:59 AM
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maverickmom
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teach what?
the roblem is the no child left behind act, and the fact that there are some pretty rigorous standards they are trying to stablish for teachers, as should be.
There are certain expectations public schools have for preschoolers entering school now, and not that I disagree with you, I think it is more of a government thing
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/24/2008 11:56:52 AM
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maverickmom
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that was a great post. However it is truly a shame that a lot of the certified people are just plain derelict, either emotionally, morally, or they just are plain stupid.
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/24/2008 11:58:32 AM
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maverickmom
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I do not want to say where i got my Bachelors in Education but the program was basically useless
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RE: MaverickMom's answers (why we HS) - 7/24/2008 12:02:50 PM
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maverickmom
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Joined: 7/17/2008
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Oh wow, I agree. However in my Master's program I met some pretty scary people who were of the belief that unless you were a teacher you should not be a counselor, and one of them was perhaps the craziest and most immoral, unprincipaled person I had ever met, and a drama queen. Every time she spoke I thought to myself...Advocate home school, Advocate Home School, please protect your children from the likes of this woman...
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