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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 5:01:00 PM
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Piff.
Posts: 35
Joined: 7/24/2008
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All I wanted was clarification on the point being made. I did not misread what you typed, I just wanted clarification.
Nice thoughts, btw.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 8:30:09 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1596
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Diolectic,
quote:
Yes, it is we who fill itwith defiling things.
That is how we are responcible and become guilty.
How do you supose mankind is responcible & guilty if our heart comes pre-defiled?
You keep insinuating this sin comes from without and the text is clear that it comes from within. Can people fill their minds and hearts with all sorts of evil things? Well yes they can, but it is because they are enticed to do so by their own inner natural evil desires and lust.
For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil....and so on and so on......
Here is another text;
14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
That is the process of sin and it has to do with each person and their very own evil desires.
Sin in thought or deed has to start from some place. It is saying that it starts from within the fallen human being.
There certainly may be temptations all around people but people are actually tempted by their own lust.
If we place temptations all around someone that has no inner evil desires (like Jesus).....nothing evil happens.
When text says Jesus was tempted it means temptations were around Him and not that He Himself was tempted to do evil.
People are guilty because God says they will be guilty. That is plenty enough reason! No more reasons are needed. People sitting back in their easy chairs trying to decide if God is fair or unfair for charging people for their sins even though they cant help but sin is not going to change it.
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault?
For who resists His will?"
Why would He fault someone when He hardened their heart and no one can resist His will?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
The point is that it is His stuff. All of it. 100% His stuff. He made it all. All humans are His to do with as he pleases.
If He wills to send me to Hell because He thinks I dont smell good enough to be around Him isnt that a good enough reason?
If I cant smell better because I am incapable of finding soap, unwilling to find soap, or I just simply stink......does that change the issue that He does not will or desire to tolerate my smell?
He made all people. Dont you suppose He knew that people would be going to Hell before He made them? Dont you suppose He could have decided not to make those ones?
quote:
This coruption is decay, not anything which defiles us.
Our bodies begin to decay as soon as we are born or stop growing.
Bodily decay is not what Romans 8 is talking about.
Romans 8 starts out with;
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
The text is not saying our decaying bodies are what brought us condemnation.
The condemnation had to do with our corruption........slavery to sin.
It is a real and tangible bondage.
quote:
I'm not saying that they are already clean, I say that we fill our own hearts with all uncleanness.
Mark 7:19 Because it enters not into his heart, but into the belly, and goes out into the drain, purging all foods?
The defilment must come into the heart, then it will come out.
From out of the mouth, the heart speaks.
I dont know why.....but you keep saying it exactly opposite of what the text says.
Mark 7;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%207;&version=49;
The Heart of Man
14After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, "Listen to Me, all of you, and understand:
15there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.
16["If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."]
The outward sinful things that defile a man come from an already defiled heart. That is why evil comes out because evil is within.
People are held in bondage to corruption and it is called a sin nature.
You can call it a human nature, but by all means let us not forget that humans will by nature sin.
Mark 7;
17When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.
18And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)
20And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
21"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
The evil outward things start from within the evil inner thing.
That is where they start.
"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
If all the evil came from the outside Jesus would have said;
All these evil things proceed from the outside and defile the man.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 9:47:33 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Y'all are saying that we are incapable for something which we did not bring on ourselves, sin nature.
I have a friend with cerebral palsey. You can only imagine his limitations. It's not his fault and he can do nothing about it. But if he managed to get behind the wheel of a car he would be held guilty of any damage, loss of life or harm he caused.
quote:
Therefore, you make mankind inoccent.
Perhaps I misundestood something, but I don't understand what you meant by that. If I was born with a sin nature, God's demands are no less than before the fall - which was the fault of the corporate head of mankind. He created man without sin because that is His standard - and His character doesn't change, even if all of mankind became depraved as a result of Adam (which we did). From that point on, all mankind deserved only eternal separation from God. It is only through God's grace that we can move from the state of spiritual death to eternal life.
Ah, PERFECT! I like this illustration Jim, and I'm going to use it with a different twist.
With this friend of yours, does he not have the choice to take mass transit to his destination, so as to avoid all possibility of being held accountable for a car accident?
What you and KJB are insinuating is that your friend has no choice. God has created your friend with cerebral palsy, and then commanded your friend to get in his car and drive to work, even though God has told him he will have an episode and kill an innocent human being, and THEN tell him he will be punished for it. THIS is what you and KJB believe, and this is not what God has promised us.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 9:55:11 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBondquote:
Yes, it is we who fill itwith defiling things.
That is how we are responsible and become guilty.
How do you suppose mankind is responsible & guilty if our heart comes pre-defiled?
You keep insinuating this sin comes from without and the text is clear that it comes from within. Can people fill their minds and hearts with all sorts of evil things? Well yes they can, but it is because they are enticed to do so by their own inner natural evil desires and lust. They choose those "inner evil desires and lusts", this is because they refuse to submit themselves to God. They weren't there to start with.
Tell me how they are accountable if they are there to start with?
quote:
Why would He fault someone when He hardened their heart and no one can resist His will? Because it is there fault that God hardened their heart, because they hardened their heart first as it was with Pharaoh.
God only hardens hearts out of judgment.
Once He does that, then who can resist His will?
quote:
The point is that it is His stuff. All of it. 100% His stuff. He made it all. All humans are His to do with as he pleases. According to you, it pleases God to be tyranical to His beloved creatures.
According to you, He put's natures that HE hates in people just so He can take plesure in damning them.
According to you, He creates mankind with corrupted heart to do that which He hates.
Do you not see that you portray God horribly?
quote:
If He wills to send me to Hell because He thinks I don't smell good enough to be around Him isnt that a good enough reason? That is not a justifiable reason to send mankind to hell.
quote:
If I cant smell better because I am incapable of finding soap, unwilling to find soap, or I just simply stink......does that change the issue that He does not will or desire to tolerate my smell? If smelling bad was a sin and you were unwilling to find soap as you are able, then you would be held accountable and judged accordingly.
quote:
He made all people. Don't you suppose He knew that people would be going to Hell before He made them? Don't you suppose He could have decided not to make those ones? why would a loving God create those He knows will not repent?
If God chose to not create those who He knows will not repent, that alteration of this optimum amount of repented would change the circumstances to where it would cause more to not repent as the other alternative worlds.
If God knew men would not repent, why did God create them?
I will give an example to answer this one.
My intention is to invite & to dine with my whole neighborhood to my favorite restaurant.
I know that most will not come and dine with me, however, that does not change my intention to do so.
Then, come the questions:
why would I intend on inviting those who I know will not show up?
It is because I love them, the invitation proves my love for them. Furthermore, if I don't invite those who I know will not come, it will cause some that I know who will come to deny my invitation.
Or,
Why would God created those HE knows will not repent?
It is because HE loves them anyway, the invitation of the Cross of Christ to repent proves His love for them. Furthermore, if HE didn't create those that HE knows will not repent, it will cause some that HE knows who will repent to not repent .
Just as in real life, God will use the death of a person(saved or not) to cause another to come to Him.
Or, as I mentioned above, If God didn't create them, it would cause more to not repent as the other alternative worlds.
quote:
quote:
This corruption is decay, not anything which defiles us.
Our bodies begin to decay as soon as we are born or stop growing. Bodily decay is not what Romans 8 is talking about.
Romans 8 starts out with;
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
The text is not saying our decaying bodies are what brought us condemnation.
The condemnation had to do with our corruption........slavery to sin.
It is a real and tangible bondage. Okay, you have God making His creation hateful to Himself so that they will inevitably, unavoidably do that which HE hates.
I will keep the fact that He subject creation to temporariness(vanity) for the reason of hope of resurrection, We will be delivered from the bondage of decay(corruption) into the glorious liberty of the children of God.(glorified bodies)
1Corinth 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption(decaying flesh); it is raised in incorruption(undecayable glorified body):
:53 For this corruptible(decaying flesh) must put on incorruption(undecayable glorified body), and this mortalsubject to death must put on immortality(not subject to death).
quote:
quote:
I'm not saying that they are already clean, I say that we fill our own hearts with all uncleanness.
Mark 7:19 Because it enters not into his heart, but into the belly, and goes out into the drain, purging all foods?
The defilment must come into the heart, then it will come out.
Tell me how they are accountable if they are there to start with?
From out of the mouth, the heart speaks. I dont know why.....but you keep saying it exactly opposite of what the text says. Because we are to keep our heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.(Pro 4:23)
If it were pre-corrupted, we wouldn't be told to keep it, but we would be told to throw it out.
The Scripture would say:
loose, ignore, neglect your heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of death.
Fact is, Solomon knew that we are the ones who fill our heart with the thing which defile it.
That is why we are to keep it diligently pure, clean and undefiled.
quote:
The outward sinful things that defile a man come from an already defiled heart. That is why evil comes out because evil is within.
People are held in bondage to corruption and it is called a sin nature.
You can call it a human nature, but by all means let us not forget that humans will by nature sin. humans will sin by choosing to put their affections on the wrong things. This is because they refuse to submitt themselves to God.
< Message edited by Diolectic -- 7/31/2008 10:34:23 PM >
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 10:21:01 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1596
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online
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Diolectic,
quote:
It is the blood which makes unclean, not the newborn.
The text says;
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.
It says the "woman" will be ceremonially unclean.
Your point earlier was that all infants are born perfectly clean.
You also claimed that people are made unclean by touching unclean things.
You told me to read in Leviticus and I have.
Now, in most cases does the woman or her blood touch the newborn when the woman is delivering or holding her child?
The answer of course is yes.
So what newborn would be clean after touching what is unclean?
quote:
I wasn't to say the Old testiment rituals still apply today.
I was merely saying that what ever is unclean, when it is touched makes that one who touched it unclean.
Well, why were you telling me to read Leviticus?
This is what you told me;
quote:
That is unbiblical.
What makes a man unclean is what he touches. Read Leviticus.
You were telling me what I wrote was unbiblical, what makes a man unclean is what he touches, and I should read Leviticus.
I have gone to Leviticus and it shows that all babies born must be born unclean because they have touched what is unclean!
quote:
When I say touch it, I mean recieving it into ones heart, choosing to let it stay there.
And which part of Leviticus should I read to see what you meant by; "What makes a man unclean is what he touches"...and..."When I say touch it, I mean recieving it into ones heart, choosing to let it stay there".
quote:
Can you show me where all are born with unclean hearts?
Text does not have to say people are born with them.
All we need is text that shows the general condition of the human heart.
Here we have text in three translations;
The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
The text does not modify "the heart" with "the infants heart", "womens hearts", "adults hearts", "seniors hearts", "girls hearts", "boys hearts",.....etc.
The text does not need to be modified because all it does is apply to "the heart".
quote:
I'm not claiming hearts are clean, but that we are not born with unclean hearts, but we make them unclean.
That is how we become guilty.
If we were that way to sart with, how would the guilt be valid
I dont know how you prove that a heart fresh out of the womb is somehow cleaner, better, or nicer than any other heart.
quote:
The question of why gets to the heart of the matter.
As you even claim, the heart of the matter is that we have a sin nature, and that is why.
I reject that reason.
I say the reason is because we choose to.
We choose to sin because we have no nature to do so?
I say we choose to sin also. I say we choose to sin because our nature is to choose to sin.
You said earlier that you do not believe any people have a sin nature.
Paul clearly said he did.
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.
Why would he say that if people had no sin natures?
quote:
According to you, they don't have any choice in the matter, because their hearts are defiled in the first place, they are only doing what is natural, they can't help it.
You caim they can't help it by saing that we have an inability do do what is right.
Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good?
No one is good except God alone.
I take that to mean exactly what Jesus was trying to convey.
No one is good. No one is clean. No one does right.
It is meant to imply a standard which is not compared to other men.
As men look at you and compare you to Hitler you might be good...but neither of you meet Gods standards.
One sin is enough to merit eternal condemnation and it does not matter if people are unable to be good enough not to sin.
quote:
The question is how did those thing get in the heart, we were not born with them there.
We put them there &/or we let them stay there once we become aware of them.
Why does God harden hearts? Isnt that an outside work?
39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40"HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
It says the reason they could not believe is because He blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts.
What can I say about that except that He did it?
Is that what is meant when Scripture says He has bound all men over to disobedience.......?
I know one thing for sure........I am not going to sit here and call GOD an ogre or some sort of mean monster and compare Him with Stalin, Hitler, Satan......or whatever other name someone could throw in there because He decided to harden hearts of His own creatures
Were these hearts destined by God to be hard from birth and never to be softened by God?
That may very well be.
Am I going to try and blame the GOD of the UNIVERSE for that and sit here trying to figure out if I should JUDGE the GOD of the UNIVERSE as fair or unfair as if I am His superior and judge?
No way......not this guy!
If He seems to think it is right for Him to blind eyes and harden hearts so people will not turn to Him and be healed......far be it for me to say it is not right.
quote:
Becasue they choose to.
Is sin not a choice?
I would say that infants sin because they choose to.
I am not talking about infant before the age of accountability.
People choose to sin. I do not disagree with that at all.
I would like to see the person that goes through life sinless which would mean they had the ability to choose not to sin. Where is that person?
The only one is Jesus Christ and that is because it is not in His nature to sin.
quote:
Do you say that God subjected the world to moral corruption after the fall?
I have shown that HE did it before.
What does it matter if people are subjected before or after?
quote:
The corrupion is decay, it means to not last, that which is coming to an end.
This corruption does not effect us moraly or spiritually, but you say that it does.
The text came out of Romans 8.
Romans 8;
Deliverance from Bondage
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;
It is not talking about decaying bodies as corruption.
Here it shows the text is speaking about children of God;
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Creation will one day see.
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
quote:
Wrong definition of corruption.
You think it means Moral corruption, depravity; wickedness; perversion or deterioration of moral principles; loss of purity or integrity.
Why would God subject His beloved creation to that?
Why not? Why subject it to decay? Why subject it to death? Why subject it to sickness?
If you think Romans 8 is talking about God saving people from physical decay you are the only person that I have ever met in my life that does.
I could care less if my body decays and turns to dust. So what?
I dont even care if you cremate me. Big deal.
I think Romans 8 is more focused on the human soul and not bodily decay.
You posted;
quote:
Are you saying that Jesus remained sinless only because HE is God?
That would mean our standard is unjustly too high.
Standards are to be attainable.
I posted;
quote:
I say the standard is perfect and not too high.
The standard is good right where its at......high.
I say you are too low.
You ask;
quote:
What do you mean, I am too low?
I mean that the standard is not unjustly too high.
The standard is PERFECTION even if you think God should lower the standard to meet your imperfection.
The standard is not too high even if there is no way you could ever reach it because you are too low.
quote:
I mean that if a standard is unatainable, then it is unjust.
You must be denying that.
Then attain it.
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Maybe the point you have is totally wrong.
I say the standard of perfection is not something I can attain because I am a sinner by heart.
quote:
I say the standard is attainable for justice sake, but no one ever chooses to reach the standard.
You say that we can't even choose to reach it.
When I see the STANDARD and how HIGH it is compared to how LOW I am........I dont want justice at all.
I dont even want to suppose in my wildest dreams that I could meet the standards that God requires.
I WANT mercy because I KNOW I cannot meet His standard.
I NEED mercy because I KNOW and am fully aware that there is no way I can meet His standard.
quote:
That is equivalent yo punishing your son or breathing, for breathing is unavoidable.
Some people are not His sons.
quote:
Yah, but your theology portrays HIM as a sadistic tyrant.
No.....you see certain text and it makes you think of Him that way.
I do not think of God that way in the slightest.
For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
"HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
Could they do what He caused them not to be able to do?
Here is what I posted;
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault?
For who resists His will?"
And this is what you accuse me of;
quote:
You portray God as a sadistic tyrant.
What I posted was from Romans 9.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 10:31:59 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1596
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online
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JimboFletch,
quote:
You know, I read those same sort of accusations from atheists all the time on this and other forums. Like the things said about how horrible God is for commanding extinction of men, women, and children in the promised land and sending sinners to everlasting torment.
It really doesn't matter a hill of beans what my or your perception of God is or what we feel about it. What matters is what God has revealed about Himself. If it offends our sensibilities, then it's up to us to deal with it because, quite frankly, He's not changing His character to suit us - that would be making Him in our own image, exactly like the atheists and anti-Christians want to do.
Some very good points!
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 10:42:46 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
If He wills to send me to Hell because He thinks I dont smell good enough to be around Him isnt that a good enough reason?
If I cant smell better because I am incapable of finding soap, unwilling to find soap, or I just simply stink......does that change the issue that He does not will or desire to tolerate my smell?
See, it is these comments that are absolutely, utterly false, and are the ones that turn un-believers away from Jesus. NO, this IS NOT a good enough reason! Answer one question for me KJB. Are there things God can not do? Can God act against His own Nature? Can God sin? Can God break promises and covenants He has made with mankind and reality?
Commanding us to smell better w/o providing us a way to do so is completely contrary to His own Nature and promises He has made with us. So no, that is absolutely NOT a good enough reason for Him to send me to Hell. He sends me to Hell as a result of MY CHOICES.
Look up the words "choose" "chose" "choice" "chosen" and "choosing" in the KJV, and you will get 226 verses. It is completely clear mankind has a CHOICE! I do believe we have a sin nature, but we are not doomed by it. Rather, we are doomed as a consequence of our CHOICES, not our sin nature. Sin nature, IMO, is something we have inherited from the fall, but it is merely an overwhelming predisposition to do wrong, and it is the action of doing wrong that demands punishment, not our sin nature. God will not punish you for something you have no choice.
God promised not to judge the righteous with the wicked as shown by several set precedences. He saved Noah and their family because they were RIGHTEOUS people. Had they chosen to follow the world, God would not have saved them. God also promised NOT to destroy Sodom an Gomorah has He found righteious men within the city. Had He found them, God would have spared the entire city. It is man's choices God judges, not their incapability. To say man has no choice, are totally depraved, and are therefore doomed to Hell by God's doing is completely un-scriptural as shown by 226 verses! Let's get real people....
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 10:56:37 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
Text does not have to say people are born with them.
All we need is text that shows the general condition of the human heart.
Here we have text in three translations;
The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Great! This is true. The heart is deceitful. But let me ask you a question. When one is deceived, do they still have a choice to NOT be deceived? If you were born already a sinner, co you have any choice whatsoever? The heart is definately deceitful, but this does not mean you are doomed. You are doomed for your choices, not your deceitful heart. You are doomed for the choices you make which were INFLUENCED by your heart (or sin nature) but you are not doomed by your heart (or sin nature). These verses you listed above contradict the ide that you were born completely and totally depraved, because deception still implies a choice.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 11:08:23 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
Text does not have to say people are born with them.
All we need is text that shows the general condition of the human heart.
Here we have text in three translations;
The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Great! This is true. The heart is deceitful. But let me ask you a question. When one is deceived, do they still have a choice to NOT be deceived? If you were born already a sinner, co you have any choice whatsoever? The heart is definately deceitful, but this does not mean you are doomed. You are doomed for your choices, not your deceitful heart. You are doomed for the choices you make which were INFLUENCED by your heart (or sin nature) but you are not doomed by your heart (or sin nature). These verses you listed above contradict the ide that you were born completely and totally depraved, because deception still implies a choice.
We are doomed because we were born in sin, period. And unless we acknowledge our sin and accept Christ's atonement, we will die in our sins. And that's a fact.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 11:13:35 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
People choose to sin. I do not disagree with that at all.
I would like to see the person that goes through life sinless which would mean they had the ability to choose not to sin. Where is that person?
So do you believe people have the choice NOT to sin? It sounds like you believe people can not choose to do right, so what is it that FORCES them to do wrong? God? Your sin nature? Do you realize how illogical, unscriptural, and distorted this is? How can one have a choice when they are FORCED to do something?! If mankind CAN NOT choose right, then they have no choice but to do wrong, which means they are forced to do wrong. You can't possibly believe mankind can choose to do wrong, but can not choose to do right. They contradict each other. If I am forced to do something by a nature I can not control, then I have no choice, and I don't choose to do wrong. So the above statement is something you can not logically believe, and remain intellectually honest with yourself. It's like believing blue is red. You can't have best of both world's my friend. If you believe man can't choose right, you also believe man has no choice (free-will). Cant have both. 
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 11:15:20 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
We are doomed because we were born in sin, period. And unless we acknowledge our sin and accept Christ's atonement, we will die in our sins. And that's a fact.
No, just what is highlighted in bold is fact.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 11:59:51 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1596
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online
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evry1needsgod,
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See, it is these comments that are absolutely, utterly false, and are the ones that turn un-believers away from Jesus. NO, this IS NOT a good enough reason! Answer one question for me KJB. Are there things God can not do? Can God act against His own Nature? Can God sin? Can God break promises and covenants He has made with mankind and reality?
Turn un-believers away from Jesus?
Un-believers are already away from Jesus.
For someone that likes to preach free-will, why would you worry about my will affecting people?
You dont even think God affects the wills of people.......so who am I to affect them?
The reasons I gave made a point.
"IF" He willed to send me to Hell for any reason that He deems is an appropriate reason, it is a good enough reason.
It is in respect to all of creation. God decided how it all works....not you and I.
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Commanding us to smell better w/o providing us a way to do so is completely contrary to His own Nature and promises He has made with us. So no, that is absolutely NOT a good enough reason for Him to send me to Hell. He sends me to Hell as a result of MY CHOICES.
It was your choice to sin because you are stuck with a sin nature. You choose to sin.
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Look up the words "choose" "chose" "choice" "chosen" and "choosing" in the KJV, and you will get 226 verses. It is completely clear mankind has a CHOICE! I do believe we have a sin nature, but we are not doomed by it. Rather, we are doomed as a consequence of our CHOICES, not our sin nature.
Why is it we have no human being that has "choose" "chose" "choice" "chosen" and "choosing" not to sin?
And if they have chosen not to sin.......why have they not carried out what they have chosen?
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Sin nature, IMO, is something we have inherited from the fall, but it is merely an overwhelming predisposition to do wrong, and it is the action of doing wrong that demands punishment, not our sin nature. God will not punish you for something you have no choice.
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
If babies are so clean, perfect, and wonderful in their first birth....why would they need to be born again?
For what reason would an infant need rebirth?
Let me give the answer that follows in the text;
6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
It looks as if cute little babies are still not good or clean enough to see heaven.
Mothers (flesh) give birth to little babies (flesh).
Jesus gave that answer because Nicodemus had the strange notion that if a person could return into the womb and be born again they could see the kingdom.
Jesus made it clear.
Flesh only gives birth to flesh so it hardly matters if you could come out of a human womb a billion times.
Babies are still not clean enough because flesh gives birth only to flesh.
You cannot see the kingdom of God unless you are born again.
The Spirit gives birth to spirit and you should not be surprised that no one can see the kingdom of God UNLESS they are born again.
Talk about a grand declaration on human ability! 
No one can see.....UNLESS.....
No one can see implies "inability" not "ability".
You call that human ability?
Jesus clears up more;
8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
Just as the wind blows where IT pleases.......so is it is with everyone born of the Spirit.
19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
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God promised not to judge the righteous with the wicked as shown by several set precedences.
He saved Noah and their family because they were RIGHTEOUS people.
Why dont you tell me why God drowned all the innocent and clean hearted babies in the same flood?
You just got done telling me God will not judge the righteous with the wicked and you use Noah and their family as the example.
Why did God drown the entire earth and all the little babies that had not sinned yet along with all the other un-righteous people if babies are so righteous, clean, and innocent?
Noah had faith. The righteous will live by faith. God grants faith.
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Had they chosen to follow the world, God would not have saved them. God also promised NOT to destroy Sodom an Gomorah has He found righteious men within the city. Had He found them, God would have spared the entire city.
And you suppose there were no clean hearted infants in the whole city?
No clean hearted infants in the whole flood?
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It is man's choices God judges, not their incapability. To say man has no choice, are totally depraved, and are therefore doomed to Hell by God's doing is completely un-scriptural as shown by 226 verses! Let's get real people....
What choices did the clean hearted babies have when God flooded the entire earth and they gulped water down their throats and into their lungs and died?
God judged them for what?
Their clean innocent hearts?
I agree with one thing..........lets get real people!
Can we at least take the Bible to say what it says and love it?
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/1/2008 11:33:06 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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KJB:
No where did I say babies were innocent, clean, or righteous. I can (and have) debate both sides and give scripture references for both. But the Bible remains silent on the issue for that specific reason. The fate of infants is in God's hands. But that fate is something we simply do not know, as a result of the silence on Scriptures of that subject. So all references to infants is null, which makes nearly your entire post #63 irrefutable and meaningless.
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"IF" He willed to send me to Hell for any reason that He deems is an appropriate reason, it is a good enough reason.
It is in respect to all of creation. God decided how it all works....not you and I.
This is all true, but you must explain and elaborate so as to not deceive people. Yes, God can send anyone to Hell for any reason He deems appropriate, BUT, those reasons have been EXPLICITLY spoken and written down in His Word, and He CAN NOT deviate from that, or God would be in sin, and He CAN NOT sin! Why do you think God gave man His Word? To make man ACCOUNTABLE. You are not accountable for something you can not control. This has been proven by 226 verses in the Bible! It's quite hard to get around that. God will not send one to Hell for a reason unknown to man. God game Moses the Ten Commandment, expecting them to obey them. Do you really believe God could expect Moses to obey the Ten Commandments even though it was impossible to do so? How does this ideology/dogma NOT contradict God's Nature?! This kind of thinking denies every promise God has made with mankind, and it makes God out to be the most powerful tyrannical liar this world has ever seen. So sending me to Hell because I was born with brown hair is something God will not do, and is an example of an inappropriate reason for me to be damned in Hell. If He did, God would not be who He promised He would be.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/1/2008 2:26:43 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
With this friend of yours, does he not have the choice to take mass transit to his destination, so as to avoid all possibility of being held accountable for a car accident?
Actually, no. There's no mass transit within a couple of hours drive of here and the guy can't afford taxis.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/1/2008 3:47:27 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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Actually, no. There's no mass transit within a couple of hours drive of here and the guy can't afford taxis.
Well, according to Scriptures, God would have given him money, or created a mass transit hub nearby, so that he would have a choice.
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RE: Sin Nature - 8/1/2008 6:05:31 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBondquote:
Can you show me where all are born with unclean hearts? Text does not have to say people are born with them.
All we need is text that shows the general condition of the human heart.
Here we have text in three translations;
The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jer 17:9 supplanting is the heart of a man: frail & un-aidable: who shall comprehend it?
The verse actually means that the heart is supplanting, it removes the source of true knowledge from its proper place & it takes the place of that truth so that you may rely on it
You can not aid it, for it is un-aidable. It was not created for the purpose in which it is being used. It is frail, weak as the flesh is, and no one can figure it out.
The reason that the heart is deceitful is because anyone who relies on themselves for wisdom or ability to please God when they need outside revelation and the aid of the spirit, they are deceiving themselves.
The false heart knowledge and self reliance seems oh so right, however, it is oh so wrong and incapable.
It is actually the mindset of the flesh, which Romans 8 talks about.
Not sin nature, not unclean hearts, but the flesh.
Just as Eve made a judgment from her own heart walking according to the flesh, they were deceived & ate the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was
1: good for food,
and that it was
2: pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be
3: desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world,
1: the lust of the flesh
2: the lust of the eyes
3: the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Furthermore, Romans 8:5-8 is basically describing Adam & Eve’s reason of failure.
The scripture that you present does not even hint of the general condition of the human heart as being unclean, but only as the flesh in action.
It is when you rely on your heart, rely on your flesh that you can not please God.
You imply that Adam & Eve did not have a sin nature before they sinned, you can not say that we do either, for they sinned in the same matter & for the same reason as we do today, they walked according to the mindset of the flesh relying on their heart.
However, if you must insist that we have a sin nature, you must acknowledge that Adam & Eve had one also.
The alternative is that none of us, along with Adam & Eve has a so called sin nature, but weak flesh that when we walk according to it, having the mindset of the flesh, we will naturally sin; when we walk according to the spirit, having the mindset of the spirit, we will naturally please God.
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I'm not claiming hearts are clean, but that we are not born with unclean hearts, but we make them unclean.
That is how we become guilty.
If we were that way to start with, how would the guilt be valid I don’t know how you prove that a heart fresh out of the womb is somehow cleaner, better, or nicer than any other heart. You can't prove that a heart is not clean, fresh out of the womb, unless you misinterpret Scripture.
How is any one responsible for defiling there heart if it comes pre-defiled?
How is anyone responsible for doing the only thing they can do.
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The question of why gets to the heart of the matter.
As you even claim, the heart of the matter is that we have a sin nature, and that is why.
I reject that reason.
I say the reason is because we choose to. We choose to sin because we have no nature to do so? Correct, Why would God give us a nature that would cause us to do the opposite of which HE commands us?
You make God working contrary to His own purpose, like knowingly & purposefully programming a computer incorrectly and getting angry for the incorrect data.
how do you not see the absurdity of this?
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I say we choose to sin also. I say we choose to sin because our nature is to choose to sin Then you must also say that God wants you to sin, for it is HE who gave you your nature.
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You said earlier that you do not believe any people have a sin nature.
Paul clearly said he did.
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.
Why would he say that if people had no sin natures? I've explained this before,
The verse 18 is actually saying, "I know that nothing of virtue is in my flesh. However, I am willing to do good(wiling to have the right affections), but, I don't know how to do it."
There is nothing about "sin nature" The NIV translating "Flesh"(SARX) incorrectly.
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According to you, they don't have any choice in the matter, because their hearts are defiled in the first place, they are only doing what is natural, they can't help it.
You claim they can't help it by saying that we have an inability do what is right. Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good?
No one is good except God alone.
I take that to mean exactly what Jesus was trying to convey.
No one is good. No one is clean. No one does right. Matthew 5:45 ...for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
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It is meant to imply a standard which is not compared to other men.
As men look at you and compare you to Hitler you might be good...but neither of you meet Gods standards.
One sin is enough to merit eternal condemnation and it does not matter if people are unable to be good enough not to sin How is sin our own fault if it is unavoidable?
How does something unavoidable merit condemnation?
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The question is how did those things get in the heart, we were not born with them there.
We put them there &/or we let them stay there once we become aware of them .Why does God harden hearts? Isn’t that an outside work? From judgment of us hardening our own heart first as it was with pharaoh.
Why do you think God would harden a heart as not from judgment?
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39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40"HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
It says the reason they could not believe is because He blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts.
What can I say about that except that He did it? You might want to interpret it correctly.
It is clear that the way of hardening the heart and blinding the eyes is not a direct agency on God's part - that could not be reconcile with any correct notions of the divine character of God. However truth as Isaiah was presenting will produce a regular effect on the minds of the hearer, The effect of truth on some minds only irritates & enrages, and hardens the person,
One must never blame God for making people to go against that which He commands, unless it is out if judgment, giving over to that which men are stubbornly doing. If man is hardening his heart, God will complete it out of judgment. If man is shutting his eyes & ears to the truth, God will complete it out of judgment.
We see this in Romans 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts,
26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against
28b: God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not proper.
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Is that what is meant when Scripture says He has bound all men over to disobedience.......? The scripture embraces everyone in a common subjection to be under disobedience & unbelief by making the law known, so that the promise through faith in Jesus Christ is given to those who will believe. (Galatians 3:22)
(reference Romans 11:32)
before the coming of Christ, they were guarded under Law, having been embraced in that common subjection to the law which is meant to direct to the faith that is being revealed in Christ. (Galatians 3:23)
If Israel had followed after a Law of righteousness, why or how did they not arrive at the righteousness of which they thought they were following after?
Because the Law that they followed was not the spirit of the law, not the law of "liberty".
The law exists for the reason of making unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful. It made separation from God to be evident to us by that which is good(the law);
In other words, the commandment exists so that my unlawful affections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific commandment. Romans 7:13
The law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ '(Galatians 3:24-25).
''they refused to have faith, but only works of Law' through the flesh. They refused to see that the law should have lead them to faith as a ''schoolmaster' '(Galatians 3:24-25)
So that those who follow after the law of righteousness, the spirit of the law, they may receive it by seeking it by faith(Rom 9:30-31 & Heb 4:2) so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in them who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Rom 8:4)
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I know one thing for sure........I am not going to sit here and call GOD an ogre or some sort of mean monster and compare Him with Stalin, Hitler, Satan......or whatever other name someone could throw in there because He decided to harden hearts of His own creatures Of course you wouldn’t because you think that God has a right to act as a tyrant & still remain holy, just & good, just because He is God. You misinterpret Scripture to back what you suppose.
Fact is, God did not give Himself a right to do those things and He does not do those things. God always remains within HIS own laws, for HE could not uphold the law if HE does not abide by it.
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Were these hearts destined by God to be hard from birth and never to be softened by God? They were not destined by God, but by there own faults which they would not repent of.
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Am I going to try and blame the GOD of the UNIVERSE for that and sit here trying to figure out if I should JUDGE the GOD of the UNIVERSE as fair or unfair as if I am His superior and judge? Do you not agree that what you believe seems to be tyranny?
If so, is the only reason that you accept it is that you think God has a right to act tyrannical just because HE is God?
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If He seems to think it is right for Him to blind eyes and harden hearts so people will not turn to Him and be healed......far be it for me to say it is not right. Do you not know the reason that God would do such?
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Is sin not a choice?
I would say that infants sin because they choose to.
I am not talking about infant before the age of accountability. People choose to sin. I do not disagree with that at all.
I would like to see the person that goes through life sinless which would mean they had the ability to choose not to sin. Where is that person? Does it prove inability to eat poop, just because no one chooses to?
Does it prove inability to jump in a live volcano, just because no one chooses to?
The lack of action does not prove the inability of it.
You think that just because it is never done, proves a disability; this is faulty reasoning.
The problem is not the nature which God gives, but the affections as I have said before.
You think that just because no one will choose a certain thing, it means that their nature is contrary to it.
Furthermore, you think that just because man will not choose the alternative is because God will not let them & makes them stay sinning contrary to what HE commands.
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The corruption is decay, it means to not last, that which is coming to an end.
This corruption does not effect us morally or spiritually, but you say that it does.
The text came out of Romans 8.
Romans 8;
Deliverance from Bondage the Deliverance from Bondage it is Deliverance from the law of sin and the law of death.
Those laws are bound up to the flesh.
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It is not talking about decaying bodies as corruption.
Here it shows the text is speaking about children of God The beginning of the chapter talks about flesh compared to the spirit.
It would make since that Paul would continue talking about the condition of the flesh.
The NIV is putting its own bias into the translation. The flesh is not our nature, which the NIV claims.
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Wrong definition of corruption.
You think it means Moral corruption, depravity; wickedness; perversion or deterioration of moral principles; loss of purity or integrity.
Why would God subject His beloved creation to that? Why not? Because He loves HIS creation, He would not create His creation with a nature which is contrary to what He commands (a house divided against it's self will fall)
If God creates men with unrighteous natures God is working contrary to His purpose.
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Why subject it to decay? Paul tells us why In Romans 8. God subjected creation to decay in the hope that one day we will be set free from vanity, futility, temprayness & we will come into the liberty of the glory that the we are waiting for, fullness, fruitfulness, eternity. We are waiting for our adoption, that is, the redemption of our fleshly body. In this hope we are saved. This hope sustains the soul in the midst of trials, and enables us to bear them without a complaint.
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Why subject it to death? Gen 3:22 Behold, the man was as one of Us, [he is] knowing good and evil now.
For fear that he stretches out his hand and take of the tree of life and eats to live forever, :23 the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken
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Why subject it to sickness? He didn't.
However:
James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith works patience.
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If you think Romans 8 is talking about God saving people from physical decay you are the only person that I have ever met in my life that does. Birds of a feather.
It us more than just God saving people from physical decay, the first part are about spirit v flesh.
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I could care less if my body decays and turns to dust. So what?
I don’t even care if you cremate me. Big deal.
I think Romans 8 is more focused on the human soul and not bodily decay</ | | |
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