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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 2:40:09 PM
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huangshan
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"Completely replacing oil" has nothing to do with this election and I'm not sure why you bring the subject up.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 2:52:40 PM
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inthysite
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Because NObama wants us off foreign oil withing 10 years. We currently do not produce enough oil to do this and we can't drill for more so what will we do for energy?
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Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 3:12:15 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
Because NObama wants us off foreign oil withing 10 years. We currently do not produce enough oil to do this and we can't drill for more so what will we do for energy?
Regardless of who wins, the public wants the government to act instead of react. The challenge for the winner is to LEAD the effort to decrease dependence on other countries for energy needs. I think McCain will get us going in that direction. There will continue to be a healthy debate and the president has to be pulling people together toward common goals.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 3:13:50 PM
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huangshan
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First, that's completely different from "completely replacing oil".
Second, Barack Obama wants to wean us off of Middle-Eastern and Venezuelan oil in ten years.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy_more#oil
Other countries sell us oil too. We get most of our foreign oil from Canada, last I checked.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 3:48:43 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
First, that's completely different from "completely replacing oil".
Second, Barack Obama wants to wean us off of Middle-Eastern and Venezuelan oil in ten years.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy_more#oil
Other countries sell us oil too. We get most of our foreign oil from Canada, last I checked.
Canada and Mexico. But oil is sold based on world-wide supplies and demands. We import most from the countries closest. But that is not what makes the price higher or lower from country to country. If oil is purchsed from Mexico at $120, it is also available from Iraq at the same price. But it costs more to get it to the US from Iraq than Mexico.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 3:53:06 PM
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huangshan
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Sure.
I'm not sure why you said "but" though. It seems like what you said is more of an "and also" than a "however".
I should say, if it wasn't clear, my earlier post was not directed at you.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 4:32:40 PM
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inthysite
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quote:
First, that's completely different from "completely replacing oil".
Second, Barack Obama wants to wean us off of Middle-Eastern and Venezuelan oil in ten years
My apologies, I stand corrected.
However, without drilling and replacing the source of oil we won't import from the Mid-East and Venezuela, NObama's plan falls short of providing the oil or energy we need.
His plug-in hybrids will increase the load on the electric grids requiring more power to be generated. We can't have nuclear and wind/solar won't provide the needed energy. So where will it come from?
Add to that not everyone can afford a new vehicle so it will take longer than 10 years to replace the cars currently on the road.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 9:02:35 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
First, that's completely different from "completely replacing oil".
Second, Barack Obama wants to wean us off of Middle-Eastern and Venezuelan oil in ten years.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy_more#oil
Other countries sell us oil too. We get most of our foreign oil from Canada, last I checked.
If the concern is price... it makes no difference where the oil comes from. We are in a global market and local supplies have very little impact on local prices.
The rapid drop in crude oil prices in the late 70s through the 80s and early 90s was due primarily to the increase in non-OPEC production. We (the U.S.) played a role in that with Prudhoe Bay production but that was really a small part of that price drop.
Don't get worked up over whether the oil we buy comes from Canada or Saudi Arabia. It makes very little difference (other than transportation costs) on the price of a barrel. Also, don't get overly worked up over whether additional oil production from Alaska will be sold to Japan or kept in the U.S. The cost per barrel to the consumer is only impacted by the overall world-wide supply verses overall world-wide demand. Thinking locally makes no sense in this market.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 9:08:41 PM
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inthysite
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quote:
If the concern is price... it makes no difference where the oil comes from. We are in a global market and local supplies have very little impact on local prices.
When talking about weaning ourselves from "foreign oil" I believe it has more to do with where the money is going rather than the price at the pump. People are concerned that we are sending money to nations that hate us, thereby funding any attacks that they may make against us in the future.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 9:22:42 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
quote:
If the concern is price... it makes no difference where the oil comes from. We are in a global market and local supplies have very little impact on local prices.
When talking about weaning ourselves from "foreign oil" I believe it has more to do with where the money is going rather than the price at the pump. People are concerned that we are sending money to nations that hate us, thereby funding any attacks that they may make against us in the future.
This is certainly a valid concern and I agree.
But most discussions in the public forum today concern price and little else - this is because this is what concerns the public. When most people pay upwards of $80 - $100 to fill their gas tank the first thought that enters their minds is "Wow, how am I going to pay all my other bills if I have to pay this much for gasoline?" Very few people are saying, "I sure am glad my $100 is going to Canada for my gasoline instead of Saudi".
Considering geo-politics your point is very well taken, however. If we had the capacity to produce a larger percentage of our own oil we would certainly be more secure. Even if we sold much of the additional production to other nations, in the event of a war we could always put an end to that and make use of oil oursselves. In today's market, price is a global issue - security is a local issue.
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Why Obama's Plan Will Work - 8/7/2008 9:42:57 PM
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Evangel70
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quote:
However, without drilling and replacing the source of oil we won't import from the Mid-East and Venezuela, NObama's plan falls short of providing the oil or energy we need.
Unlike McBush's "drill here and drill now" plan which keeps us dependent on oil for centuries to come, Obama's comprehensive plan of weaning us off of foreign oil (note, this does NOT mean we no longer use or need oil, we're simply not dependent on oil from countries that hate us) is more of a long-term solution. Perhaps the following will help you....
Today, oil and other petroleum liquids make up 40% of the US energy supply, dwarfing coal at 23%, the next largest source. Where do we get our oil from? Over 50% still comes from North America (US, Canada, Mexico). OPEC countries (including Nigeria, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela) supply 30%, and the remainder comes from non-OPEC countries such as the UK, Norway, and Russia….
The vast majority of petroleum consumed in the US is used for transportation – two thirds of the petroleum consumed in the US goes to fuel our cars, trucks and airplanes. The remainder is used to create the many oil-based products used in industry and our houses such as lubricants and plastics, to generate electricity, and to heat our homes in certain parts of the country….
We have many options to reduce our consumption of oil.
1. Reduce transportation fuel consumption. Transportation is far and away the greatest consumer of petroleum. On average, we could cut our oil consumption by buying high-efficiency cars including hybrids, by buying cars fueled with alternative fuels, or by taking public transportation.
2. Reduce heating fuel oil consumption. If you use fuel oil to heat your home, there are many options available to reduce your heating energy needs. …Options for reducing heating fuel use range from buying a programmable thermostat, to upgrading the insulation of and sealing leakage from your home, to installing solar water heating systems.
3. Reduce your consumption of electricity. If you live in an area where your utility generates electricity using fuel oil, then reducing your own electrical use will reduce the amount of oil you indirectly consume.
Link Here
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Why Obama's Plan Will Work - 8/7/2008 10:17:12 PM
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inthysite
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quote:
Unlike McBush's "drill here and drill now" plan which keeps us dependent on oil for centuries to come, Obama's comprehensive plan of weaning us off of foreign oil (note, this does NOT mean we no longer use or need oil, we're simply not dependent on oil from countries that hate us) is more of a long-term solution. Perhaps the following will help you....
Just as NObama's "tire inflation" isn't his entire engery plan, neither is McCain's "drill here and drill now". McCain is committed to reducing our dependency on oil. Here are a few excerpts from his energy plan:
John McCain Will Commit Our Country To Expanding Domestic Oil Exploration
John McCain Believes In Promoting And Expanding The Use Of Our Domestic Supplies Of Natural Gas.
The Nation Cannot Reduce Its Dependency On Oil Unless We Change How We Power Our Transportation Sector.
John McCain Supports Flex-Fuel Vehicles (FFVs) And Believes They Should Play A Greater Role In Our Transportation Sector.
John McCain Believes Alcohol-Based Fuels Hold Great Promise As Both An Alternative To Gasoline And As A Means of Expanding Consumers' Choices.
John McCain Will Effectively Enforce Existing CAFE Standards.
John McCain Will Commit $2 Billion Annually To Advancing Clean Coal Technologies.
John McCain Will Put His Administration On Track To Construct 45 New Nuclear Power Plants By 2030 With The Ultimate Goal Of Eventually Constructing 100 New Plants.
John McCain Will Encourage The Market For Alternative, Low Carbon Fuels Such As Wind, Hydro And Solar Power.
The Lexington Project
quote:
We have many options to reduce our consumption of oil.
1. Reduce transportation fuel consumption. Transportation is far and away the greatest consumer of petroleum. On average, we could cut our oil consumption by buying high-efficiency cars including hybrids, by buying cars fueled with alternative fuels, or by taking public transportation.
How will this help the trucking industry or the airlines?
quote:
2. Reduce heating fuel oil consumption. If you use fuel oil to heat your home, there are many options available to reduce your heating energy needs. …Options for reducing heating fuel use range from buying a programmable thermostat, to upgrading the insulation of and sealing leakage from your home, to installing solar water heating systems.
3. Reduce your consumption of electricity. If you live in an area where your utility generates electricity using fuel oil, then reducing your own electrical use will reduce the amount of oil you indirectly consume.
All very good ideas that could help but are not a long term solution. The problem is that Americans by nature will only conserve when the prices are high. As the prices come down conservation goes out the window. You cannot regulate conservation. This has been tried in the 70's with ill effects.
Plus the cost of some of these options make them prohibitive to a lot of folks. Not many people can afford a new, high-mileage or hybrid car, or solar panels to heat their home or water.
A lot of people live paycheck to paycheck and can't afford additional expenses. Why do you think so many people are complaining about $4.00 a gallon gasoline? Because they can't afford it. And while some of these upgrades will pay for themselves in the long run due to energy savings they still require the investment up front, an investment many don't have.
So by doing everything we can, drilling, new technology, solar, wind, hydro, etc.. we help everyone. We bring gas prices down, make energy cheaper and allow us to gradually switch over to whatever new technology works the best for the country in the long run.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 10:46:44 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
If the concern is price... it makes no difference where the oil comes from. We are in a global market and local supplies have very little impact on local prices.
Exactly, which is why Bush's claim that injecting new American oil into the world market will somehow benefit US consumers is ridiculous. There's no such thing as "American" oil any longer; the supply is entirely internationalized.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 11:09:53 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
quote:
First, that's completely different from "completely replacing oil".
Second, Barack Obama wants to wean us off of Middle-Eastern and Venezuelan oil in ten years
My apologies, I stand corrected.
However, without drilling and replacing the source of oil we won't import from the Mid-East and Venezuela, NObama's plan falls short of providing the oil or energy we need.
His plug-in hybrids will increase the load on the electric grids requiring more power to be generated. We can't have nuclear and wind/solar won't provide the needed energy. So where will it come from?
Increasing efficiency standards and increasing use of renewable energy...? This was all in the link to the Obama site I posted earlier.
I will grant that I salivate at McCain's commitment to nuclear energy, but I also recognize it as pie-in-the-sky, as the principle problem is public, NIMBY-style resistance. As long as voters are still scared (unreasonably) of nuclear energy, not even a single plant will be built.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/7/2008 11:12:41 PM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
First, that's completely different from "completely replacing oil".
Second, Barack Obama wants to wean us off of Middle-Eastern and Venezuelan oil in ten years.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy_more#oil
Other countries sell us oil too. We get most of our foreign oil from Canada, last I checked.
If the concern is price... it makes no difference where the oil comes from. We are in a global market and local supplies have very little impact on local prices.
I'm pretty sure "The Middle East" and "Venezuela" were chosen so that we could have at least a first step in not being politically beholden to them.
Oil prices are going to skyrocket because of India and China and there's nothing we can do about that. Demand will far outstrip anything we could get from pumping. Yes, pumping could help, but it's a solution akin to planting trees in the middle of a forest fire. Alternatives to oil are what are ultimately needed.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/8/2008 10:38:31 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I'm pretty sure "The Middle East" and "Venezuela" were chosen so that we could have at least a first step in not being politically beholden to them.
Oil prices are going to skyrocket because of India and China and there's nothing we can do about that. Demand will far outstrip anything we could get from pumping. Yes, pumping could help, but it's a solution akin to planting trees in the middle of a forest fire. Alternatives to oil are what are ultimately needed.
Well, I don't think anyone is saying "Pump now, good forever" - I think the more sensible people are saying, "Pump now, keep progressing towards alternatives". That is, people except Obama and Pelosi.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/8/2008 12:39:51 PM
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davemiller7
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Democrat Representative Maxine Waters came really close to disclosing the big picture a few weeks ago during the hearings with "Big Oil," when she began to say the government could socialize the oil industry. I think total government control of oil is what Pelosi, Reed, Obama, et al are ultimately going for. That would be harder to implement if oil were more plentiful and gas prices (relatively) cheap. However, if they can prevent more oil from coming on the market, prices will soar, people will get angry and demand government do something. Then it would be a ready-made situation for socialization. "After all, the people demanded we do something." Bush may have short-circuited their plan temporarily by his removing his restriction on domestic drilling. Notice that Congress has conveniently left town for their vacation and Miss America wouldn't even allow a House vote.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I'm pretty sure "The Middle East" and "Venezuela" were chosen so that we could have at least a first step in not being politically beholden to them.
Oil prices are going to skyrocket because of India and China and there's nothing we can do about that. Demand will far outstrip anything we could get from pumping. Yes, pumping could help, but it's a solution akin to planting trees in the middle of a forest fire. Alternatives to oil are what are ultimately needed.
Well, I don't think anyone is saying "Pump now, good forever" - I think the more sensible people are saying, "Pump now, keep progressing towards alternatives". That is, people except Obama and Pelosi.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/8/2008 2:11:16 PM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I'm pretty sure "The Middle East" and "Venezuela" were chosen so that we could have at least a first step in not being politically beholden to them.
Oil prices are going to skyrocket because of India and China and there's nothing we can do about that. Demand will far outstrip anything we could get from pumping. Yes, pumping could help, but it's a solution akin to planting trees in the middle of a forest fire. Alternatives to oil are what are ultimately needed.
Well, I don't think anyone is saying "Pump now, good forever" - I think the more sensible people are saying, "Pump now, keep progressing towards alternatives". That is, people except Obama and Pelosi.
I think Obama simply realizes that it's being way oversold as a solution to a problem. I may be reading my own views into him, but I suspect he realizes that it's politically disadvantageous to continuously oppose it, but it's also near worthless as any sort of a solution to essentially all but the oil companies (and, to be sure, there is nothing wrong with them making money)... as such, he's going to attempt to use it as a bargaining chip.
So I guess I would say Obama's view is "pump now if you make these compromises that will keep us progressing towards alternatives". Too wordy, maybe...
I'm not up to date on Pelosi, so I don't have a blurb to put in her mouth.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/8/2008 9:48:48 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
If the concern is price... it makes no difference where the oil comes from. We are in a global market and local supplies have very little impact on local prices.
Exactly, which is why Bush's claim that injecting new American oil into the world market will somehow benefit US consumers is ridiculous. There's no such thing as "American" oil any longer; the supply is entirely internationalized.
Actually, increasing supply in the world market (regardless of the source) will benefit the the world with lower prices.
Bush is not completely wrong. Last I checked, America was part of the world.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/9/2008 10:25:56 AM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
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quote:
Oil prices are going to skyrocket because of India and China and there's nothing we can do about that. Demand will far outstrip anything we could get from pumping. Yes, pumping could help, but it's a solution akin to planting trees in the middle of a forest fire. Alternatives to oil are what are ultimately needed.
quote:
So I guess I would say Obama's view is "pump now if you make these compromises that will keep us progressing towards alternatives".
Okay so the question remains that everyone seems to be avoiding. You say drilling won't help any more than puting a band-aid on a gaping wound. You say we need to work to alternatives as a long term solution. You say that drilling wouldn't even produce any oil for years to come.
Fine, let's assume for argument sake that you are correct and we don't allow any new drilling so supply stays relative to what it is or has been, allowing for some increased production by other countries, which of course will be gobbled up by China and others as well.
So now energy prices are skyrocketing because supply is low and demand is high and speculators are going crazy. Gas prices get up between $5.00 - $8.00 a gallon, heating our homes is so expensive we have to choose between staying warm or eating.
So here is the question (a two parter)
a-what new technology are we going to use to alleviate this?
b-when will this technology be available and affordable to the masses so as to benefit everyone?
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/10/2008 4:46:30 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
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Off the top of my head, there's the idea of weatherizing homes, and apparently Obama supports doing this annually for the next ten years or so. Beyond that, increasing efficiency and government support of renewable energy sources is an effective means to make the current standard of living relatively unchanged. All of this is either available now, or available in the near future after the economies of scale are expanded to allow for cheaper production.
And wearing a sweater isn't a terrible solution to the problem of staying warm or eating.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/10/2008 1:18:17 PM
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Evangel70
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quote:
Well, I don't think anyone is saying "Pump now, good forever" - I think the more sensible people are saying, "Pump now, keep progressing towards alternatives". That is, people except Obama and Pelosi.
Jack, you need to read something other than Fox News to get Obama's position.  See below:
Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Friday he would be willing to support limited additional offshore oil drilling if that's what it takes to enact a comprehensive policy to foster fuel-efficient autos and develop alternate energy sources….
"My interest is in making sure we've got the kind of comprehensive energy policy that can bring down gas prices," Obama said in an interview with The Palm Beach Post.
"If, in order to get that passed, we have to compromise in terms of a careful, well thought-out drilling strategy that was carefully circumscribed to avoid significant environmental damage — I don't want to be so rigid that we can't get something done."
Link Here
The only difference between Obama's plan and McCain's is that Obama wants to make sure our offshore drilling is down responsibly so that our children and grandchildren don't pay the price for our rush to "drill here and drill now". Obama also wants to decrease our DEPENDENCY on oil so that we are not in the same boat 10 years from now.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: The McBush Oil Plan - 8/10/2008 1:50:46 PM
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inthysite
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quote:
Off the top of my head, there's the idea of weatherizing homes, and apparently Obama supports doing this annually for the next ten years or so.
The majority of homes built within the last 10 years are adequately weatherized, so adding insulation won't affect the price at the pump at all, this is right up there with inflate your tires. 
quote:
Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Friday he would be willing to support limited additional offshore oil drilling if that's what it takes to enact a comprehensive policy to foster fuel-efficient autos and develop alternate energy sources….
Well here is what NObama stated just over a month ago:
Sen. Barack Obama said that rather than opening up more federal land to drilling, he would instead dun oil companies for the leased lands they are currently sitting on and use the proceeds to fund sustainable energy projects.
In a town hall event outside of Las Vegas Tuesday, Obama aimed twin arrows at Big Oil and his rival, John McCain, blasting the Republican senator for recently saying he would support more offshore drilling in the U.S. Though the fruits of an expanded domestic drilling program would take years or even decades to yield extra oil output, McCain recently said that opening up federal waters to drillers would have a “psychological impact that I think would be beneficial.”
Though McCain was clearly talking about the calming effect such a policy decision might have on oil futures markets, Obama cast the comment as an attempt to pander to voters. “In Washington-speak, that means it polls well,’’ Obama said, adding that the drilling would have little practical effect and amounted to “the same old gimmicks.’’
Instead of opening more lands to drillers, Obama said he supported a bill in Congress that would levy a fee on oil companies that have rights to exploit federal property but don’t. Current law requires oil companies to develop a lease within 10 years or lose it. There are millions of acres of unexploited, leased lands in the federal inventory; Obama said these lands carry the potential to double U.S. oil output. “If that compels them to drill, we’ll get more oil,’’ Obama said. “If it doesn’t, the fees will go toward more investment in renewable sources of energy.’’
Obama Suggests Charging Oil Companies for Unused Leases
So lets charge a fee, which actually amounts to a fine, for oil companies who aren't drilling on leased land, where according to them there isn't any oil. I mean seriously, they are already paying rent on the land so how can he justify a fine?
Do you seriously believe that oil companies are just sitting on land that they are paying a lease on? Don't you think if they had access to additional land that had oil in it they would be drilling?
And since NObama stated that opening up drilling is just "Washington-speak" and "a gimmick", is he now using that same speak and employing the same gimmick? Is he in support of it because as he says, "It polls well."?
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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